China 08'

[harlem123 0]

OK it was just an example but in a way it shows how the Tibetians feel.

All in all i would say we can

[Haljackey 17,302]

Originally posted by: Callbat woah haljackey how did you embed that?quote>

Oh, just hit a button that looks like an anchor in the reply box.  (after the internet links).  Post the embedded link in the box that appears and voila!  a youtube video!

But, I have recently learned that it doesn't work using firefox, so switch to IE when you want to post a video.

If you have any more questions, send me a PM.

[yoshikoroyimara 5]

EMBRACE!!!! The torch is coming to SF tomorrow, Wednesday! And read this:

Top Chinese cops protect Olympic flame

By ANITA CHANG, Associated Press Writer Tue Apr 8, 3:28 PM ET

BEIJING - They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.

Torchbearers have criticized the security detail for aggressive behavior, and a top London Olympics official simply called them "thugs."

"They were barking orders at me, like 'Run! Stop! This! That!' and I was like, 'Oh my gosh, who are these people?'" former television host Konnie Huq told British Broadcasting Corp. radio about her encounter with the men in blue during London's leg of the relay Sunday.

So far, the "29th Olympic Games Torch Relay Flame Protection Unit" - as the squad is officially known - has kept the flame from being seized during chaotic, protest-filled runs through Paris and London.

 

Its mettle is likely to be further tested Wednesday in San Francisco, where activists protesting China's crackdown in Tibet and its human rights record have promised widespread demonstrations.

Officially, Beijing has said only that the unit's mission was to guard the flame, in keeping with practices of past Olympic games.

Members were picked from special police units of the People's Armed Police, China's internal security force. The requirements for the job: to be "tall, handsome, mighty, in exceptional physical condition similar to that of professional athletes," the state-run China News Service said.

Special police units are the top tier of the paramilitary corps, chosen for skills in martial arts, marksmanship and hand-to-hand combat, according to sinodefense.com, a British-based Web site specializing in Chinese military affairs.

The training for the Olympic flame detail included daily mountain runs of at least six miles and lessons in protocol. They also learned basic commands such as "go," "step back," "speed up" and "slow down" in English, French, German, Spanish and Japanese, the China News Service said.

But as the torch made a stormy procession through London and Paris, the military training rather than the protocol seemed to come to the fore.

At least one torchbearer said she clashed with the squad, and others have criticized their heavy-handed tactics.

Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.

"It was seen and then, after four seconds, all the Chinese security pounced on me. There were at least five or six (of them). They started to get angry" and shouted "No! No! No!" in English, she said.

De La Bigne tried to push several agents away as they grabbed her arm. She said two French athletes who are martial arts experts tried to help her and clashed briefly with the security detail.

The chairman of the London 2012 Games, Sebastian Coe, was even more blunt.

"They tried to push me out of the way three times. They are horrible. They did not speak English. They were thugs," Coe, a two-time Olympic gold medalist, was quoted as saying in British media. A spokeswoman for the London 2012 Olympics committee confirmed that Coe was quoted accur

[belfastuniguy 18]

The British Foreign and Commonwealth office have complained to the Chinese regarding these 'men in blue' They are not happy elite police forces where sent and on the streets of London.

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: raja_indy14 although i sympathize with the tibetans and the chinese that are oppressed, i don't think it can be said that the chinese government has no concern for the chinese people - else why industrialize, why not just sit in their palaces whilst the people starve, a la kim jong?  the plight of the tibetans can also be seen, i think, as a natural tendency for massive population pressures to spawn migrations and - often - the subjugation of neighbouring peoples.  for instance european populations expanded massively into the americas during their period of industrialization and population growth; while canada and the US both brutally oppressed native populations in their conquest of the western frontier - these crimes have still not been properly addressed by either country.  it is regrettable, but can westerners really criticize a country for doing precisely what they did in similar circumstances (settling other regions), is it suddenly taboo because it is no longer a western imperative?  from where do they derive their moral authority?

secondly, the communist government is harsh.  it is a party that ruthlessly and jealously guards it's single-party status, and it is constantly paranoid of any threat to it's authority - political, religious or otherwise (and they may have a right to be, the religious Tai-Ping rebellion in the mid-19th century killed 20 million - when instability rocks china millions die).  however it has also guided china through a period of unrivalled economic growth, millions are being lifted out of poverty; you may say that so many more remain poor, but development has never been an instantaneous process, and millions of chinese are seeing real benefits to their standard of living - to say otherwise would be naive.  some suggest that the very control and stability of the communist government has greatly benefited china, i'm not so sure, but i know my own government is hugely inefficient and apparently ineffective and doing anything more than a basic day to day running of the country.

the policies may be harsh, but how does one run a single-party state of 1.4 billion people, 120 million internal migrants, an economy growing at 10% per annum, with arable land and the environment rapidly deteriorating?  what country HAS experienced rapid industrial development with a truly free society?  many european countries began their industrializations under monarchs or dictators, the US may have been 'free' but for a long period of it's early growth there were millions of people enslaved, while suffrage was far from universal.  is it even possible for a major state to make it through the rapid early stages of industrialization - and all the difficulties it creates - with a completely free society?  eventually, with increasing wealth, the growth of a middle class, and education these forms of government are superceded by more democratic and freer societies, which is something that i think must happen to china - the floodgates of capitalism have been opened and the old order will eventually be replaced; whether the communist party fades peacefully away or in a spasm of violence is what we should worry about.

on the environment and work environment/wages i can only say that this is a country in the early throes of rapid industrialization, can we realistically expect that people will be earning US$5/hour off the bat?  or that expensive, environment saving technologies will be implemented at the outset?  look at 19th century London, the killer fogs and the appalling working conditions - it seems a natural stage of development.  the chinese gov'ts&n

[skyliner22 16]

Well today is the SF torch relay and its 6:23 AM here and Pro Tibet and Pro Chinese protesters have already showed up. They are making last minute route changes and have not revealed to the public yet. We'll see how it plays out but there are many protesters since it is for all of North America!

[tyhz 0]

any possibility of a live update?

[skyliner22 16]

Well one of the news stations will stream the video on their website. I have school so I won't post it until about 5:00 pm later

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Honestly, reading through this thread, I find it laughable that many posters castigate China no end, yet fail to notice the positives that China has achieved in its amazingly short existence as a unified country. As I've posted in the other thread, your grandmothers are probably older than China as a nation (and possibly even skigeek herself is of a more advanced vintage). Yet, during that short 50 odd years, China has managed to pull itself out from the mire of foreign aggression (which explains their engrained mistrust of the West), widespread destruction, the havoc of WWI and WWII, of a non-functioning government, little to no technology and pariahship (thanks to the US and their attempts to move the rest of the world against Communism) onto the solid ground of international recognition.quote>

Germany has done a better job than China at this; while China destroyed itself during the first decades after the Second World War the Germans made sure that they would be remembered to the Wirthschaftswunder instead of a silly project like the "the Great Leap Forward". That's one of the reasons Germany has a GDP per capita of USD 28 900 (2003). They've done all thei while the German people actually has enjoyed deomcracy! So no, you don't need a oppressive government and restrain freedom to grow; indeed you might even be labelled "successful" if you managed this within the limits of individual freedom.

I may be accused of hyperbole in that statement; I recognise some will be more than willing to point out the innumerable shortcomings that China has (which are obvious), yet, for those of you sanctimoniously berating China over human rights abuses, chances are, you've forgotten the past history of your own country (the US and the UK, especially). It's easy, thousands of miles off to point fingers and accuse China of not caring about their own people etc. etc. yet, would anyone like to govern 1.3 billion people?? Would handing over the mandate to, say, yoshikoroyimara or belfastuniguy automatically expurgate all the wrongs that China currently commits? Would handing over the reins of power to gingerblokey or TRNSTN mean a sudden end to hardship? It's so easy to say, "Why doesn't China allow freedom of speech?", "Why doesn't China leave those poor Tibetans alone??", "Why doesn't China embrace democracy?", yet, as many of you know, principals and ideals are so easy to spin out of thin air, but I daresay those highbrow ideals rarely come to much.quote>

Yes! Think about the past history, and see how far we've come! Look at the US, for example; true, they might not be perfect in how they've dealed with the decendants of the slaves, but it's not long ago segregation were considered OK, in the land of the free. What would I rather be? Poor and black in the US, were I actually have freedoms, and the chance to be someone, or poor or Tibetan in a China shutting off my region, where I have no chance of becoming someone?

The Brits dismantled their empire rather peacefully, an empire more widespread and China and probaly with more people too, although that's not important. But how about them today? Just yesterday I talked with one from Cameroon, an interesting country for everyone eager to learn more about European colonies. Cameroon is composed of two communities; one which descend from the British colonies and thus are English speaking (the Anglophone community) and one which descend from the French colonies (the Francophone communities). As an Anglophone, what could be said about the British? Nothing, actually: When they pulled out, they pulled out, and those who came later (British), whereas the French government continue to hold its arm over their former colonies, with a lot of French (stateowned) companies are "investing" heavil

[belfastuniguy 18]

PM not attending Olympics opening

Mr Brown received the Olympic torch at Downing Street on Sunday

Prime Minister Gordon Brown will not attend the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, Downing Street says.

However, he will be at the closing ceremony when the Olympic baton will be passed to London.

A spokeswoman said Mr Brown had never planned to attend the ceremony and was not boycotting the Games.

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said Mr Brown "seems to do the right thing late in the day when he is forced to do so because of public opinion".

Mr Clegg, speaking to Channel Four News, branded the move a "last-minute U-turn".

The Olympics minister Tessa Jowell will represent the UK at the opening in Beijing in August.

Under pressure

Mr Brown - who has been under pressure to boycott the Olympics over China's human rights record - has never specifically said he will attend the opening ceremony.

And BBC political correspondent Carole Walker said Downing Street felt it would not make sense for him to go to China twice.

However he has talked of attending plural "ceremonies".

On 27 March, at a press conference during France's President Sarkozy's visit, he said: "We will not be boycotting the Olympic Games; Britain will be attending the Olympic Games ceremonies.

"At the same time, the president has said that the Dalai Lama has not called for a boycott of the Olympic Games."

At his Downing Street news conference on 1 April, Mr Brown said: "I think President Sarkozy said himself that he expected Britain, because we are going to host the next Olympics, to be present at the Olympic ceremonies and I will certainly be there."

The torch's visit to London was disrupted by anti-China protesters

It comes as the Olympic torch arrives in San Francisco under tight security for the sixth leg of its round-the-world relay.

Barricades have been set up and streets sealed off close to the planned relay route. Police leave has been cancelled.

Protests have already caused serious disruption to legs in London and Paris. In Paris, the torch had to be extinguished three times, while in London there were 37 arrests.

Mr Brown attracted controversy for receiving the Olympic torch outside 10 Downing Street, although he did not hold it.

Most demonstrators are protesting over a security crackdown in Tibet after anti-Chinese unrest.

Tibetan exile groups say Chinese security forces killed dozens of protesters. Beijing says about 19 people were killed in rioting.quote>

[belfastuniguy 18]

I'm so pleased the PM is not attending the opening ceremony. He has restored some respect to the Office of Prime Minister in my personal view.

I'm not fussed he's attending the closing as he has to be there to take the flag in preparation for the London Olympics.

[raja_indy14 8]

Germany has done a better job than China at this; while China destroyed itself during the first decades after the Second World War the Germans made sure that they would be remembered to the Wirthschaftswunder instead of a silly project like the "the Great Leap Forward". That's one of the reasons Germany has a GDP per capita of USD 28 900 (2003). They've done all thei while the German people actually has enjoyed deomcracy! So no, you don't need a oppressive government and restrain freedom to grow; indeed you might even be labelled "successful" if you managed this within the limits of individual freedom.quote>

You can't seriously be comparing Germany to China in this way?  they are so incomparable this argument descends into farce.  Additionally, it's not even true.  Germany was unified under a Kaiser in the mid-19th Century, at which point it underwent rapid industrialization (it was a far from democratic and 'free').  After economic chaos and instability folowing WWI, economic stability and growth were restarted in the 30's - again under a totalitarian (and subsequently reviled) government.  Despite the devastation of WWII, at it's conclusion Germany was still an indutrialized state.  Recovery was a matter of rebuilding, not starting from scratch.  Japan was in a similar situation.  When the Communists united China in mid-century the country was not industrialized by any stretch of the imagination, it was still a largely agrarian state.  The two are simply incomparable.

Anyways, all i've said is that it is VERY RARE - please give an example since i can't come up with one off the bat - where a country as endured the early stages of industrialization with a completely free and democratic government, let alone a state under the amazing pressures that china is undergoing right now.

Why are the Chinese so afraid of what people are saying? Why is it suddenly so important to rule TIbet (it might have been under Chinese control before, but certainly not ruled from Beijing)? Why would China break up if they stop executing people who have seen dirty pages on the internet? Would you, ephorex_77, continue as a dictator if you assumed control of China? Who do you think deserves to be executed, and for what? What shall we do to those dirty Tibetans? How to we keep the rest of China quite, dancing after you?quote>

As i said in my original post, the reason that it is important to oppress the Tibetans is because China is in essence colonizing the country.  Massive population pressures in the east of the country are being alleviated by moving millions of people into the sparsely populated western frontier - there are many parrallels with canada/us actually - including Tibet and Xinjiang.  Migration and displacement seem - historically - to be a natural result of massive population pressure.  I also mentioned that the reason the government is oppressive is because they fear rebellion against the regime, as any government does, and because if disorder were to break out it would be much worse for the average Chinese than anything that is happening right now.

To people who say that Canada and the US have 'made redress' for their crimes against the native populations (I'm Canadian and i would say that this hasn't really been done - I can't speak for the US with such conviction however) - I would say 'whoopee, it only took a couple centuries, and segregation of blacks continued for another century after the abolishment of slavery!!'  Sorry, but it is not a convincing argument.  Besides, as i said, does the whole world move with the west?  When the west decides that colonization is terrible - luckily when it no longer needs to colonize

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: raja_indy14You can't

[belfastuniguy 18]

I so enjoy reading your replies Krbe, so informative and articulate

[raja_indy14 8]

Germany was largely destroyed during the 24-hrs bomb raids the RAF and USAF conducted over Germany, in addition to the Soviets attacks (though they had to fight ther way through larger territories), and the "rebuilding plans" for Germany after the war had two important elements: Denazification and the establishment of an agrarian state. Paying damages like they had to do after WWI wasn't an option (we all know how that went), but keeping the Germans down, both economically and technologically was deemed feasible. No one could foresee the European Union in 1948; much less imagine Germany as the leading country in Europe 60 years after. The Soviets tried the agrarian way, by dismantling DDR's factories, while the Western Allies soon gave up. Nonetheless, both Germanies were occupied until 1955.quote>

Yes, and a good thing the Morgenthau Plan wasn't fully implemented, or else the story would have been quite a bit different.  It doesn't change anything, rebuilding an industrial state that has been devastated in war is not the same as the transformation from an agrarian to an industrial state - which is far more turbulent.  The argument by comparison remains moot.

 It's actually harder to remember a country which was industrialised while being under such stringent control as the Chinese.quote>

No, the Soviet Union comes to mind instantly.

And who are the "average Chinese" you're so full of concern for? Is it the Han group which is going to suffer if the "Chinese" decide that an authoritarian regime does not represent them sufficently? Or the Uihgurs, those dangerous Muslims? Or the Tibetans, which had to see their country once again invaded by China and even be ruled from Beijing?quote>

It's generally accepted that death from warfare, disorder, starvation (as a result of economic breakdown) and disease is NOT preferrable to a little oppression.  In this sense whatever oppression is occurring right now is better than what would happen if the country descended into civil war.

Sorry, it doesn work that way in a community. There are some common sets of rules that apply to all in all communities, wheter we're talking about people, businesses or countries.quote>

How convenient that these 'rules' that the world has to now follow have been dreamt up by the west, just after a couple of centuries of them doing precisely what is no longer allowed.  Again, this smacks of excessive eurocentrism and arrogance.

Many East Germans are longing for the "good ol' times"; as long as you don't care about what your government does as long as it gives you a job, it's alright. From the moment you feel it's something wrong and are willing to talk about it, it's going to cause you problems. Which political thoughts were you able to form while you lived in Indonesia? That military coups are a fine way of gaining power? That purges against those who think otherwise are all good? That paying your way through the system is an acceptable "good governance"? quote>

I'm a high school student, so I'm too young to have lived through all that (), but at any rate i was mostly joking.  However, it is true that for the vast majority of the population a little oppression is alright so long as they are seeing real economic results.  For the vast majority of people - even in western societies to some extent - political participation is largely irrelevant - the majority of people i know have only the foggiest notions of how our country is run or what different political parties stand for - you could not get any less engaged.

And I would point out t

[patriots_1228 51]

raja: You appear to be confusing Colonization with oppression.

Colonization is: "to establish a colony in; settle".

Oppression is: "the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner."

So, China is not really colonizing Tibet, seeing as I doubt there is any effort to get somthing going there. But they are exercising authority or power in a burdensome cruel or unjust manner.

[belfastuniguy 18]

It's generally accepted that death from warfare, disorder, starvation (as a result of economic breakdown) and disease is NOT preferrable to a little oppression. In this sense whatever oppression is occurring right now is better than what would happen if the country descended into civil war.quote>

Generally accepted by whom??

I certainly would not like to have my lifestyle oppressed, my basic fundamental human and civil rights taken away from me and to have a state try to control every aspect of my life...nor be taken to prison and tortured for speaking my mind in public or indeed in private it seems for some.

I'd rather die thanks...becuase you can't really call that a life.

How convenient that these 'rules' that the world has to now follow have been dreamt up by the west, just after a couple of centuries of them doing precisely what is no longer allowed. Again, this smacks of excessive eurocentrism and arrogance.quote>

The 'west' does not have a proud history, many things happened that are regretted. But we have learned from those mistakes and as such have been able to introduce these 'rules' - as you put it, which many nations do follow. The are believed to enshrine the rights of individuals and communities and they do not tolerate oppression. Oppressive government never last becuase generally their people will eventually demand respect and freedoms and the right to be treated fairly...what is so bad about that?

Also something I should add, that were it not for these 'western rules' and freedoms most likely you would not have the freedom to express your personal views. I find it interesting that you defend a country in which, were you to be living there, you would never be allowed to openly speak your mind. If you did you would now be in prison and most likely being tortured.

Its all very well defending China from the comfort of a Canadian suburb....would you be so forgiving if you lived there?

[s_olah 87]

I totally agree with with belfastuniguy...

[harlem123 0]

@ belfastuniguy amen that is exactly what i think

 

[skyliner22 16]

So the torch relay went through San Francisco today. They re-routed the route from the Embarcadero to Van Ness. There were tons of Pro-Tibet and Pro-Chinese supporters who were bashing at each other. Protesters blocked the Embarcadero, I think it could have been pretty bad and I think the SFPD did rather well. There were few protestors on that route. One problem was that they cancelled the ceremony afterwards. I think it was a good idea, I am watching the local news now and the protesters are rather rowdy, they attacked an empty bus thinking it had the torch relayers. The relay after going went to SFO, the motorcade. It passed by school and I was able to see it as it zipped down 19th Avenue. Tons of SFPD police bikers and a few tour buses and I saw the Beijing people on it. Well today was a protesting day in San Francisco and i think the police did a good job protecting the Olympic torch people and dealing with the crowd. Well thats the report from a local of SF!

[bigskelding 12]

I love it, ST Live around the world, CNN were coming for you. good job with the report!

[belfastuniguy 18]

I heard about the SF Torch farce on the BBC....total joke.

The Chinese brought it into SF under cover of darkness then shunned it onto a bus and paraded it down a few streets it was never meant to even be on. All the while the hundreds if not thousands of pro-China supporters were left disappointed as were the anti-Chinese and pro-Tibet supporters........oh well at least everyone was disappointed we have that at least

[threeswept 12]

I got to see it, too. I was on I-280 at John Daly. On my way under the Pacifica exit, I noticed that there wasn't any traffic going south. I quickly realised what the deal was when I saw the first cop car. The road was blocked southbound, so I pulled over on northbound to the centre median and took a few pics with my phone. Only one really came out, though. Too bad all those other people were suckered out of it...although, the flame was hidden inside a coach.

[raja_indy14 8]

Colonization is: "to establish a colony in; settle". quote>

Sorry, isn't this precisely what is happening in Tibet?  The Chinese conquer Tibet, because of population pressure millions of Han Chinese are transported into the country swamping and destroying much of the native culture.  They, of course, don't like being conquered, oppressed, and displaced and are rebelling.

Generally accepted by whom?? quote>

Well most people aren't too happy about dying , most people aren't as idealistic and are quite content to suffer some oppression so long as their material conditions improve.  As Indonesia demonstrated, once material conditions stop improving the government better watch out.  To most people survival is more important than 'freedom' - whatever that actually means.

Besides, I'm not against opening up society, I just question the feasibility and immediate benefits of applying all these western values to the powder keg that is China in one fell swoop.

Oppressive government never last becuase generally their people will eventually demand respect and freedoms and the right to be treated fairly...what is so bad about that? quote>

There is nothing wrong with it.  As I've said capitalism has come to China, and it's unlikely that the Communist party will be able to maintain it's vice-like grip on the country through this current and rapid period of transformation.  Eventually, with increasing wealth and education, a more open and democratic system will be adopted.

What I'm against is the west standing on a moral high horse and believing that it can tell everyone else what to do.  it's arrogant, why should the rest of the world continue to have to dance to the west's tune?  I'm saying let China change naturally, indigenously - I bet that it will, but applying western standards to the whole world has always seemed arrogant to me.

Also something I should add, that were it not for these 'western rules' and freedoms most likely you would not have the freedom to express your personal views. I find it interesting that you defend a country in which, were you to be living there, you would never be allowed to openly speak your mind. If you did you would now be in prison and most likely being tortured.

Its all very well defending China from the comfort of a Canadian suburb....would you be so forgiving if you lived there? quote>

Absolutely right, except that I'm not trying to say what the Chinese government is doing is right; though considering the gist of what I've been saying I very likely would be encouraged to speak my mind ().  I'm not against western values, I'm against westerners constantly measuring everyone else against this western values yardstick (which westerners have only relatively recently come up with anyways) and telling everyone else in the world that they should behave in the same way.  Even though they used to behave in exactly the same way! 

And I'm not being forgiving, I'm being practical.  Would it make any difference whatsoever to Tibetans if I were to join the tide of vitriol-spewing anti-Communist government posters in this thread thus far?  No.  I'm trying to be objective and dispassionate, you might accuse me of moral bankruptcy, but there's not much I can do about that .

It is by lucky coincidence that I live in a wealthy western country and not some third world despotate (although i've lived in one and as I've said it wasn't that bad ), and perhaps if I<

[skyliner22 16]

Yea we were cheated, not just the city but North America; the problem was the protesters they got too rowdy and blocked the route on Embarcadero once it started. No way could they go through this crowd and not have problems so SFPD did their job, protect the torch. I wished they at least ran down 19th no way all those protesters could have gotten there and I coulda witnessed history. Instead all I got to see was a motorcoach with buses and SFPD police bikes, as belfastuniguy said everyone was dissapointed and theres no way it would have worked here, maybe it will be better in Buenos Aires, London 2012; we'd love to have you!!

[belfastuniguy 18]

Well most people aren't too happy about dying , most people aren't as idealistic and are quite content to suffer some oppression so long as their material conditions improvequote>

I doubt that to be honest....maybe you would but I'm sure most people would not

What I'm against is the west standing on a moral high horse and believing that it can tell everyone else what to do. it's arrogant, why should the rest of the world continue to have to dance to the west's tune? I'm saying let China change naturally, indigenously - I bet that it will, but applying western standards to the whole world has always seemed arrogant to mequote>

I think the 'west' should condemn and intervene more often. Then maybe we could have avoided Rwanda, Sudan, the total mess that is Zimbabwe.

Lets also remember than many countries look to the west to mediate and assist when the time suits them. But when it doesn't they shun western nations...they can't have it all their own way. It you seek to trade and do business with economic powers of the west then you should expect some criticism now and then.

But I wonder what Chinese are more upset at, their government that is lifting them out of poverty, or foreigners continuing to tell them what to do?quote>

Actually its westerners that are generating the wealth in China through our consumer demand and the investment from western corporations.....funny that...

[threeswept 12]

I felt cheated on several levels with the torch. And, I was thinking about it all day cause I really wanted to go. Two of our buildings are on the Embarcadero, but I knew it would be so chaotic...my company even cancelled all coach shuttles between our offices. So, I drove down the peninsula to work. It just happened that I was on my way home and came across the convoy.

As for the topic of China itself...I abhor China's communist regime and have successfully boycotted Chinese made products for many, many years - it's super simple to just look at labels of where things are made. You can even become a second consumer, instead of first consumer, to buy things like electronics without your money going directly to the communist government and supporting further oppression. Honestly, if more people were more aware of what they purchased, people like Steve Jobs wouldn't have a leg to stand on when they advocate cheap labour in countries that have complete and total disregard for their citizens and the environment.

[patriots_1228 51]

Raja: The chinese people don't prefer freedom over dying because they have never had freedom. But, once you taste freedom, you would rather die than live without it. As i said before, if the US were to become opressed, I would get my freedom back, or die trying.

And, you say the West is not one to talk, because we have had issues in the past. This is exactly why we are ones to talk. What China is going through today we have overcome, and now we are trying to help China get to where we are. Of course, the typical anti-west thing to say is "They are trying to run our lives". No, we are trying to get China through its growing pains and into its prime.

Plus, the US has never helped a genocide. I take that as a sign that the two are uncomparable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, i think this whole olympic protesting is a disgrace. It goes against everything the games stand for. If you really wanted to make a statement, stop buying so many chinese products. They don't work, anyways. By not consuming chinese goods, you are hurting them more then you would be by speaking out against the olympics, which not only will hurt them, but also your country and your citizens.

This is the highlight of many atheletes lives this year. Please don't ruin it for them.

[belfastuniguy 18]

On the other hand, i think this whole olympic protesting is a disgrace. It goes against everything the games stand forquote>

There is a difference between the games themselves and the torch relay. The latter was invented by the Nazis as nothing more than a political statement...people can protest all they wish, that's what makes us better than China, I'm perfectly happy for the games to go ahead as planned. They have existed for over a thousand years and should be allowed to continue but that does not mean I can not protest over the fact China got the games.

There is a difference...you yourself have stated on several occasions you wish to see the games fail for China and your anger at China getting the games.....

If you really wanted to make a statement, stop buying so many chinese products.quote>

I already tend to avoid Chinese products as best I can...some things though can not be helped, like some electronics.

[threeswept 12]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

I already tend to avoid Chinese products as best I can...some things though can not be helped, like some electronics.quote>

Awesome! Another anti-made in China product boycotter. Governments and credit card companies continually remind us that consumers have massive power. If more people would do exactly this it would change so many things. Fortunately, or unfortunately, it took recent buyer-beware recalls on toys to get the world as a whole thinking about made in China products. However, most people are apathetic, at best, and just don't care.