threeswept

Wow! I had all but forgotten how amazing this thread is...after all these years!!! Great work everyone!

Happy memories...looking through your journal. Great pics! Good job!

Absolutely agreed. American politics, for me, is a total laugh and are always and completely about guns and abortion. And, they're filled with continual hyperbole. It's always 'my team against your team. And, we'll do whatever it takes for our team to win.' As well, the separation of Church and State is a joke. And, like the Bible, Christian Republicans and uninformed Tea Bag folk will forever interpret the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, etc...er, misinterpret it...to fit their agenda. And, like Larks2242 says - 'Still democrats tend to act like you can't think for yourself, goverment run this goverment run that, while we all know that its the goverment that messes everything up, in the first place.' Sounds like typical conservative hyperbole. I like to equate these kinds of comments to gated communities, which tend to be conservative - one can't leave the garage door open for more than 15 minutes without receiving a notice from the association, one has to paint their home 1 of 3 colours, one can't erect a fence over a certain height (if at all), etc, etc, restriction, restriction. And, if anyone has been following politics in MN, you'd be amazed with how many NEW laws and restrictions have passed just this year. Or, even the stupid, stupid, stupid legislation in TN with the 'Don't say Gay' bill...because homosexuality will somehow just disappear if one doesn't discuss or say the word 'gay' in schools? The bill prevents anti-bullying initiatives, too. Hypocrites...smaller government, my butt.

And, a happy Easter to you, my dear, old friend.

This is great! It looks better in BAT than the real thing!!!

Ah, that was beautifully orchestrated...and, a most fitting end to an incredibly inspirational CJ!

Splendid! What a stunning building!

Obviously, one can 'go more with' any other synonym for ignorance. It's still ignorance. And, you are correct, one cannot fully understand being straight or homosexual when one is the other. However, related to the military - predictions of doom and gloom played out by many over who should be accepted and what 'will' be tolerated in the military never plays out. So, that's why I believe a lift on the ban will, in the end, be no big deal.

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: threeswept Blacks, Asians and women serve in the US military. Don't ask, don't tell is THE same argument used in opposing admission into the military by blacks, Asians and women. quote> Don't ask whether someone's black, don't tell anyone you're black? I don't follow. quote> I think you understand my comment. I didn't mean literally don't ask or tell if someone were black or Asian or a female. Fear and anxiety - that there would be tension and a degrade in morale and teamwork if someone who didn't look and believe and act like 'regular men' were serving. I didn't mention that there wouldn't be or wasn't zero tension. However, it does prove that these men are still serving and obviously no one really cared. Otherwise, as I mentioned, I'm sure they would've been discharged years ago. Social awkwardness comes from ignorance.

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: petercintn you cannot find logic, an intellectual concept, in something spiritual.quote> True enough. It's a purely subjective matter. There is no logic in subjectivity. Originally posted by: manticorefan God is logical, and uses logical processes. Hence, the Christian emphasis on knowledge and education... God is knowable. The idea that God is somehow beyond logic or rationality, a 'mystery' God, isn't supported by Scripture. quote> There is a certain pseudologic to the behavior of God, particularly in the Bible, sure. Problem is, while it supports itself and works within its own little subjective theological realm, it falls apart in the bigger picture. If God is knowable, why do so many people believe so many different things about him? If God is knowable, then it must be possible to demonstrate who's right (and who's wrong). If that were true, then you'd think that by now a consensus would have been arrived at. Instead, the opposite has happened: over the years more churches and ideas have popped up and come to simultaneously thrive. Ultimately, the flaw is that the knowledge is subjective (and thus, strictly speaking, not actually "knowledge"). There is no concrete proof to be put forward that you can teach to anyone and convince them of. Instead, it comes from within - it's an abstract and emotional thing. And thus what makes perfect sense in one man's head is utter nonsense in another man's head. ...besdes, don't people say "the lord works in mysterious ways" all the time? quote> Again...very well stated - I couldn't agree more. However, I'm sure there will be those that would say that Lucifer, Satan, or whatever name they have for the "Fallen Angel", was allowed to freely roam earth and test people and this is the reason for separate religions, blah, blah, blah...

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: manticorefan The Koran describes a completely different deity than the Bible or the Talmud.quote> Or, at least, the description is different. Objectively speaking, this is one of those things that there's no right answer to. Muslims will say "our god is the same as yours", Christians will say "no he's not". ...aaaand you're at an impasse, since neither ultimately can base their claim in anything but faith. One certainly can "prove" that aspects of Allah and the Koran are outlandish based on things in the Bible, but that of course operates on the assumption that the Bible is correct in everything it says - which is a key aspect of Christian faith but, outside of that, is not a demonstratably realistic assumption. Indeed, it is a demonstratably absurd asumption. After all, any other holy book (including the Koran) has exactly the same objective validity as the Bible does. They all disagree. They therefore cannot all be correct. Only one, or none, possibly can be. There is no smoking gun pointing at any one of them, ergo it is absurd to objectively decide on one being correct. Now, subjectively, you can assume whatever you want, but it must be stressed that having faith in something and having it be factual truth are two entirely different things. Faiths can (and very often do) conflict, facts cannot. Islam still keeps the symbol of A'aliyah; the crescent moon.quote> And Christianity still keeps the holiday of Saturn, Saturnalia (although they call it "Christmas"). Your point? There are also religious scholars who, based on their research, have come to the conclusion that the Koran was written by a kidnapped rabbi forced by an illiterate group of Mohammed's followers to write their book, and murdered him afterwards.quote> Okay, now that's more than a little far-fetched. Well, we can't prove that didn't happen, at least. Different descriptions + different attributes = different entity. It's one or the other.quote> Based on this same logic, I suppose we can assume that the Barack Obama in the eyes of the far left and the Barack Obama in the eyes of the far right are two entirely different people. He's most certainly described differently (an awesome guy doing great things versus an evil socialist). He's even given different attributes (e.g., the former was born in Hawaii, the latter in Kenya). Must be a different entity! quote> Very well explained and as, in the words of Barbarossa, an atheist/agnostic/humanist/secularist/anthropological person, I completely agree. Interestingly, I've been in three separate long term relationships with a Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim. So, my perspective on these religions is quite unique.

Originally posted by: Duke87 As discriminatory as the policy may be, there are, actually, practical arguments in favor of it. First of all, the military, by the nature of what it is, tends to attract a crowd of largely red-blooded, tough, action-loving "manly men" who do not think highly of homosexuality (at least among men). It's thus an unfortunate reality that the majority of people serving in the armed forces do not want to be serving in the company of openly gay men. So this will cause distress and upheaval among the military since by and large they are very much against it. Secondly, the armed forces are, by nature, a "band of brothers" - men working together as men. Like it or not, that sort of relationship really can't be fostered if one of the men is openly gay because relationships are very different when there's sexual attraction involved, even if the relationship is in no way romantic or sexual. Beyond that, particularly in the navy, especially on submarines, there are going to be a lot of situations where people are going to be in really close quarters, too close for comfort when sexual attraction is involved. Shower day on the submarine involves guys lined up, packed together, waiting for their turn.. naked. Imagine that situation if one of those guys is openly gay. Not good. In fact, for this reason, women in the navy cannot serve on submarines. To do that, you'd have to have an all-female crew and there aren't enough women interested (particularly among higher ranks) for that to happen. Point being, an end to "don't ask, don't tell" is a lot more than just ending a ban on openly gay people serving in the military. It will radically change the social aspect of a lot of situations, creating new problems that previously did not exist. It is a step in the right direction as far as equality and rights are concerned, to be sure, but whether or not it's actually a practical improvement in the greater scheme of things is debatable. quote> You forgot to mention in your description the words ignorant, red-neck, hillbilly, high-school drop-outs and men who were sent into the military by their families to "straighten them up" or "put them on the right track". In reality, I take your comments about sexual attraction to be quite ignorant. Just because a man is gay or woman is Lesbian doesn't mean that he/she is attracted to the men/women he/she would be serving alongside. I understand your point; but, it lacks a sense of reality. And, like it or not, there are thousands of gay men and women in the military who are doing the very things that keep cohesion in the military. Blacks, Asians and women serve in the US military. Don't ask, don't tell is THE same argument used in opposing admission into the military by blacks, Asians and women. And, I might add, that I have 5 gay friends are still serving in the military and many of the people they serve with do know that they are gay. Two of them are in the Navy...imagine that...in close quarters with gay men on a ship...for weeks on end...at sea. Did I mention for weeks on end. Imagine the social aspect of that...eating together, sleeping together and *gasp* showering together. I'd think that if their commanding officers really found it an issue, they would've been discharged over 15 years ago. Thank goodness their commanders understand the idea that men and women are there to serve and protect the country. They don't see race, they don't see gender, they don't see sexuality as an issue.