The Current State of the American Education System.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Here it quickly goes to defiance. Young smart-alec's think they know it all, when they've just started out. Only a two-by-four between the ears gets their attention.

Part of that defiance can be attributed to idiot adults. I've met adults who think they deserve respect because they are older than me, never mind the fact that at 15 I'm beyond what they will ever achieve.

However, if the person is a teacher, respect is required. Most of the little darlings are too wrapped up in themselves to learn effectively without the proverbial plank. This is a problem in our computerized, communications age. They think they have something better to do than learn new things, then wonder why they get low grades. Parents need to do some careful ego deflating when the kiddies are younger.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Biology teaches the basics behind biotech, and many schools offer IT classes.

The main difference between, say, an average school in China and an average school in the West is that the students in China tend to pay attention in class. It's hard to impart anything onto a mind a million miles away from the rest of the world.

A very good point. In China, teachers are respected (and some are feared) by the students. Chinese family mores are very strong on respect for elders and authority.

Here it quickly goes to defiance. Young smart-alec's think they know it all, when they've just started out. Only a two-by-four between the ears gets their attention.

Disipline and Dissapointment,thats how we used to do things too.

until they decided that all disipline= abuse. Now we have a generation of kids who are ok with failure.

  Edited July 11, 2011 by Easy Bakes  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Biology teaches the basics behind biotech, and many schools offer IT classes.

The main difference between, say, an average school in China and an average school in the West is that the students in China tend to pay attention in class. It's hard to impart anything onto a mind a million miles away from the rest of the world.

A very good point. In China, teachers are respected (and some are feared) by the students. Chinese family mores are very strong on respect for elders and authority.

Here it quickly goes to defiance. Young smart-alec's think they know it all, when they've just started out. Only a two-by-four between the ears gets their attention.

Disipline and Dissapointment,thats how we used to do things too.

until they decided that all disipline= abuse. Now we have a generation of kids who are ok with failure.

The problem with child psychologists is they forgot "Spare the rod and spoil the child". Kids learn more through experience, and they have to take the good with the bad. After Benjamin Spock's great mistake, we've been wrapping them in cotton wool. It's as bad a celibate priests acting as marriage counselors.

Must be a hell of a shock for them to suddenly find out that their insulation has fallen off.

Exposing kids to frustration and failure from a very young age, with guidance towards resilience is what is needed. There are many kinds of rods. A physical one can sometimes be used, but with great regret for having failed on the part of the parent. The exception of the sadistic parent does not invalidate this rule. It only means that they must be caught.

Unfortunately, we now have a generation of Spocked parents who are trying to raise kids the same way, when we all know what a flop it was. Stroking little Johnny's id doesn't help him in life, and it could turn him into Dorian Gray or Edward Hyde.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

that i agrea with and if you live in a big city (thankfully i dont) some teachers dont even care if these kids will be dead the next day

see i live in a small town so tiny here the teachers care about there students i once lived in the city it is so much diffrent when theres less than 60-100 kids in a grade the teachers care moose i do agrea with on that though they also i ithing that they need to also start putting things in schools that are growing bussinese like bio-tech or computers these are things that are growing and probly not going to die soon and i hate to say this but they need to start getting rid of all these holidays i mean 3 weeks off for christmas dont get me wrong i like it but we need to during thoughs 3 weeks about a billion kids in china did math we might even need to add a school day dont think im a square i like the weekend but unlike my friends im thinking of my future if america gets so far in dept that they shorten a school day for budget cuts im goignt o get my parents to move to a country with a good education system

Holy cow. I thought it was bad at the beginning.

Barbarossa

It has got to be the longest run-on sentence I've ever seen.

  Edited July 11, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Duke87 1,070]

The problem is one of habits. It's harmless albeit perhaps a tad annoying to the reader to type like that on the internet, but not paying attention in one venue leads to not paying attention in others where it matters. It's all that much easier to slip up on typing a paper for school and lose points. And even beyond that, on a job applications or on professional correspondence.

Ultimately it ends up being the little things. Nobody who I receive emails from at work types run-on no-caps blobs of text, but sometimes I will see someone type "there" instead of "their", or some other such common mistake... and it reflects negatively on them. Sloppy writing is indicative of a greater sloppiness in the author's character, and prospective employers, clients, etc. are turned off by it. It makes you look unprofessional and uneducated.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

I have decided not to read this for another week.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

The basic problem with careless posting is that it represents you to the rest of us. If you don't care enough to write well, why should we bother to read what you write? In fact, if you don't care to express yourself well, why bother? If you have something to say, it is worth saying properly.

This is one instance where it is important to be well though of.

This seems to be one of the curses of texting and tweeting. Brevity is the soul of wit, but saying it well makes the point better.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

I think it could be called stream of unconsciousness.

Now that school's out, what harm are the politicians up to in your area?

The city of Toronto is having a budget crunch, and their usual response is to cut parks and rec, especially playgrounds. It is going to he a hot summer, and they may close the water parks!? I wouldn't put it past them to start trying to close city-run day-cares and the big new animal shelter, too.

[Duke87 1,070]

This is why all these analytical, quantitative standards of evaluating teachers and students that are in vogue among school boards are ultimately hurting, not helping.

[Easy Bakes 253]

This is why all these analytical, quantitative standards of evaluating teachers and students that are in vogue among school boards are ultimately hurting, not helping.

but thats what they want. all education evaluations in an easily statistically adjustable format.

it another form of lowest common denominator being what every aspect of education is striving for. except the kids who get short changed by that system.

they firmly belive D's get dergees.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

If the system doesn't break free from the politically correct educaterers, you will soon have a Roman mob instead of smart citizens. What good is a degree if the holder got it by social means rather than by merit? A diploma is not an instrument of social well-being.

[Easy Bakes 253]

If the system doesn't break free from the politically correct educaterers, you will soon have a Roman mob instead of smart citizens. What good is a degree if the holder got it by social means rather than by merit? A diploma is not an instrument of social well-being.

its also not an indication you know anything either.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

If the system doesn't break free from the politically correct educaterers, you will soon have a Roman mob instead of smart citizens. What good is a degree if the holder got it by social means rather than by merit? A diploma is not an instrument of social well-being.

its also not an indication you know anything either.

That's unfortunate. It used to at least mean that graduates knew how to think for themselves (engineers excepted). Engineers are trained to follow the standards and not to deviate.

  Edited July 30, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Easy Bakes 253]

If the system doesn't break free from the politically correct educaterers, you will soon have a Roman mob instead of smart citizens. What good is a degree if the holder got it by social means rather than by merit? A diploma is not an instrument of social well-being.

its also not an indication you know anything either.

That's unfortunate. It used to at least mean that graduates knew how to think for themselves (engineers excepted). Engineers are trained to follow the standards and not to deviate.

yes the work force is full of on-line trained technicians who have no idea how to apply thier knowledge in a real world problem.thats the problem with some online courses you get no hands on

training.

[Duke87 1,070]

It used to at least mean that graduates knew how to think for themselves (engineers excepted). Engineers are trained to follow the standards and not to deviate.

Now what on Earth gave you that idea? My experience is quite otherwise. They always told us "be a thinker, not just a doer". And indeed, my job is anything but a "just do this and don't question it" job. It requires thought. Thinking about what the best way to approach something is. Thinking about whether something makes sense. Especially when you consider that there's a lot more to being an engineer than just engineering. In order to do my job I have to be able to answer questions and explain things to people, I have to be able to inspect job sites and know what to look for, I have to judge whether or not things people propose should qualify for our program and what exactly they should qualify for, I have to be able to manage my time and get things done efficiently, etc.

Sure, we have standards to work with, but the same can be said of any professional occupation. Bankers have standards. Doctors have standards. Lawyers have standards. Even "creative" careers such as graphic design have standards.

[Timmystwin 201]

A degree means you know something. A degree in Physics or maths is a tad more respectable than a degree in the history of ideas or surf science.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

A degree means you know something. A degree in Physics or maths is a tad more respectable than a degree in the history of ideas or surf science.

Some schools will always offer degrees in basket-weaving and butterfly-mounting, as we used to say. The quality of the degree can be ascertained by reviewing its curriculum.

And Duke87, that may be true for you and your school, but you haven't met some of the engineers that I have. Some of them seem to wear blinders, while others are more like research scientists. It depends on the attitude of the school from which they've graduated.

My son got a perfectly good degree in Philosophy, but in his last year he discovered that this degree was merely a springboard into either Law or further academic pursuits. He took a diploma in Science Laboratory Technology in order to find a job.

[Easy Bakes 253]

A new trend

Indiana schools drop handwriting

http://www.ghanamma.com/2011/07/12/indiana-schools-drop-handwriting/

So far away from when every thing you turned in was to be

hand written and neat, with correct spelling and grammar.

I was Quite upset they never allowed typed work to be turned in

as i could type much faster then i can write by hand.

Wonder how well they will do when they have to show thier work

on math problems and no one can read the terrible hand writing.

Wonder when we going to stop listening to psychiatrists about education and raising kids.

  Edited August 25, 2011 by Easy Bakes  

[airman15 4,115]

^ Granted it is environmentally friendlier and it is faster but there are two things I disagree on:

Since computers are electronic, what if a total blackout occurred or all data was erased? Wouldn't the loss of information have an impact if disaster struck? I keep paper books so that I would still have info even though a blackout does happen.

And second, handwriting authenticates whatever was written. Any schmuck can cut and paste a block of text or tap a bunch of buttons as I am but by handwriting, it shows that you really did put effort into whatever you were working on.

Other than that, it sounds like something that would work for he students of Indiana

[beebs 129]

There might be some confusion here.. they're not dropping learning how to write with a pen and paper altogether.. they're removing cursive writing from the curriculum, in favor of typing. Everyone will still be expected to print properly and neatly.

I actually support this. I don't think I know anyone under 35 that still uses cursive writing.. Heck, when I try and do it for novelty's sake, I actually have to think how to form some of the letters since its been so long. This is just one of those skills that isn't relevant in todays world. Typing efficiently, on the other hand, is something that everyone should be able to do.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

I suspect it is being dropped because the teachers no longer have the skills to teach it. I'd frankly like to see an (optional) course in 19th century copperplate hand. It was not only not that difficult, but it was also beautiful. It just required considerable practice in making perfect ovals and straight slanted lines. This was dropped when I was in grade school, but there was still cursive, basically made up of printed majescule and miniscule letters joined up. This is not difficult either, but these days, what you get is an illegible scrawl.

I also agree that, to a certain extent handwritten material helps to eliminate plagiarism. Typing skills and word processors are all very well, but with the Internet everywhere, a checking program needs to be employed to reduce plagiarism. When I was teaching in college, we had such a program and paid a pretty penny for using it in order to protect our academic integrity from cheats.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

I was taught cursive in school but I rarely use it. Even back then, I'd write using block letters since my cursive writing is terrible. I'd much rather type, though.

[Duke87 1,070]

The one practical use of cursive is signing things. But even then, my signature is scribbles, as is most people's. And you can probably still develop one without knowing cursive. So yeah, why teach it?

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

I was taught cursive in school but I rarely use it. Even back then, I'd write using block letters since my cursive writing is terrible. I'd much rather type, though.

Up until the end of grade 3 we were required to print. By the end of that grade it was almost draftsman quality. The cursive that we learned in grade 4, with straight pen and ink wells was copperplate and you were supposed to practice, practice, practice. However, by grade 5 the copperplate program had been dropped, and it became anything goes as long as it is legible.

In 1946 when my father got back from overseas and got his old job back, my mother became a stay-at-home mom again. She taught me typing and Pitman shorthand. The shorthand text I had was The Legend of Sleepy Hollow (Washington Irving) written in Pitman with a transcript at the end of the book. I wasn't great at writing it exactly, but mother said that you developed your own style and short cuts as needed. She was right. I did learn to read it very well. By the time I hit high school, I used to drive my classmates nuts because not one of them could read my shorthand notes. I hardly ever bothered to transcribe them, but I used to hand in my assignments typed.

Around this time, mother went back to work because my father's company was sold to a competitor who promptly closed the plant. Dad mussed around doing part time until mother used some drag with an old school chum (who was, at that time the Secretary of State for Canada and our MP). Dad got a job on Canada Customs using his veteran's preference with a big queue jump. He worked on customs until he retired. As soom as some real money started coming in, mom reiired again, but kept getting calls from old employers for vacation fill ins. I think that's how we were able to get our first TV set in 1955.

Back to the topic: I still write cursive stuff occasionally. I have two styles: quick and pretty. The quick is a mishmash of speed writing and shorthand. The pretty is good enough for greeting cards. My year of university level mechanical drawing is really useful. If I work at it, I can print like a machine.

By the way, the medical crowd's writing is often full of Latin. This makes it really hard. There are a lot of short cuts:

PRN ::= as required or as instructed

b i d ::= bis in die ::= twice daily

o.d. ::= occulus dexter ::= right eye

FUO ::= Fever of Unknown Origin

and the beat goes on.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Interesting they allowed you to turn in typed work.

when I was in school all homework, essays, and reports were required to be

neat and hand written, with correct grammar and spellings.

only assignments we were allowed to turn in typed were typing class

assignments.

[Duke87 1,070]

Whereas by the time I was in middle school the idea that someone would write out a writing assignment by hand was mad. I remember in 6th grade there was one poor sap in my class who still didn't have a computer at home (this was 1998-99). Everyone else was typing everything.

The first time I typed a homework assignment was in 2nd grade (1995). My teacher did not object, she was actually impressed that I was capable of typing. In those days kids weren't learning to use a computer before learning how to read (and not everyone had one at home), so it was impressive.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Times have really changed. I was in the public school system from 1942 to 1955. During that time the 19th Century attitude to education changed drastically, but there were no computers of any kind available to the public. When I was at Queen's university in 1957 the only computer on campus was an IBM1701 process control machine in the EE lab, and that was for graduate work only. Then the Russians launched Sputnik. I still remember seeing the telemetry trace in the Physics Building (Ontario Hall). Caused a first class flap.

Oh, and let's hear it for Laika. Orbit in Peace doggie.

  Edited August 26, 2011 by A Nonny Moose