The Current State of the American Education System.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

Yay! Public schools get billions of new funding thanks to "embellishments" and exaggerations! Does the end justify the means?quote>

Since this thread hasn't been active over the summer, maybe you should have included a reference to what you are talking about?

quote>

I think he was referring to  money spent keeping  kids in school as long as possible even if they haven't shown

and inclination to achieve scholastic success.

IE the school for  the students over 19 years old who have not graduated yet.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Budgets cuts kill science again

3 Schools to close Plantariums

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

I can understand they have to recover from some spending binge, hut they should sell the state house before cutting physical plant in education. If the education system is too fat, they should examine the role of the educaterers. Salaries for administrators would be on the top of my agenda.

Education is for the students, who are the future. If they want a six-gun economy, this is a good way to start.

[airman15 4,115]

I really hate the "No Child Left Behind" act that my school proactively follows. Granted, it's the top school in Placer County and the API is almost at 900, but i don't feel like i'm getting very far. The standard is that you have to have at least a C- in every class and if you are below that in any of them, you will fail and thus have to do summer school and all that other nonsense. The problem is, you cant have a "one size fits all" standard because everybody learns differently or may not understand at all what is being taught. I was diagnosed with aspergers (which is close to autism) but I never was too great in math and now they expect me to do Algebra, an area of math that I only understand about 40% of the standard if that. And on top of that, I don't think most of the material I was taught was needed for a summer job as a window/carpet cleaner (since when would a carpet cleaner would need to know why schools of fish suddenly die off when it has nothing to do with carpets or cleaning). Had they just asked us what kind of job we want and then picked out classes that would best suit the way we learn, we probably would be a lot smarter instead of having to resort to plagiarism or other just to have a "decent grade" but end up not learning because of a system that is too challenging for some.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Yeah, we both have High Functioning Autism (also formally known as Asperger Syndrome and improperly called aspergers, mostly by people on the internet) but my problem is critical reading. I have difficulty understanding subtlety in words.

[Duke87 1,070]

Perhaps the single biggest flaw in education is that we expect the same of everyone. Different people have different things they're good at. Some countries apparently have different high schools that specialize in different things. This, I think, is a great idea. A lot of things which are taught in high school are vital knowledge to some but useless knowledge to others, depending on your career path. When students are always complaining "this is useless, when am I going to need to know this after I finish school?", something is being done wrong.

Of course, you then also have to take care of the whole entrenched philosophy among postsecondary institutions that their students need to be "well-rounded". It's certainly not a bad thing to know a little bit about everything, but it's not for everyone. If a psychology major's eyes glaze over at calculus, they shouldn't have to take it just because it looks nice on their transcript. They aren't going to remember any of it and it provides no value to them.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Well, Seattle Public Schools have high schools that offer certain "academies" to help improve in one subject or career, such as Biotech, Maritime, Engineering (Project Lead the Way/MESA), Foreign Language, Computer Science, etc. The less skilled students can just take enough years of easy classes to graduate.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Well, this is how it was in the 1940's and 1950's.

Everyone was expected to make it through Grade 8, but failure was definitely an option. There was a 12-year-old downs kid in my Grade 1 class and it is likely he never went any further. There was no other place to put him at the time (1942). Ernie had a mental age of about 5, but his body was growing up, and was normal in all other respects. It was tragic.

My mother didn't like the way things were going at the public school I was in and I was transfered to the separate school system. This resulted in having to take a street car, one change on the way, to the other end of town. This happened between grades 3 and 4, when things are just getting going on the social front. I've always resented this, since the public school was across the road from our house, and I could hold my own in the school yard.

But anyway, the curriculum at the time was mandated totally by the province. Elementary textbooks and supplies were supplied. At the end of grade 8 you had to pass a provincial examination for admission to grade 9. This was abolished when I was in grade 7, but we were studying past exams anyway when, partway through the year I was told I was now in grade 8.

And so, at the ripe old age of 12 (my birthday is in September), I walked into the local public library, told them the children's library held no interest for me, and after a couple of questions, got an adult library card. That library was a smörgåsbord of knowledge and I was pretty academic at the time. That summer, I learned the differential calculus on my own.

In high-school there were three divisions. You had to choose one, and I chose the general education division as it was the one that led to university admission. The other two divisions were commercial (business subjects including shorthand, typeing, bookkeeping, etc,) and technical which could lead to an apprenticeship or admission to the Provincial Institute of Trades (Now George Brown College). So what was in the curriculum for me:

Grade 9:

English (two papers), French (two papers), general mathematics, history, phys ed/health, career guidance (waste of time), general science (mostly botany, but lab procedures too), geography (half course, thank heavens). I joined the cadet corps.

Grade 10:

English (2), French(2), Latin(2), general science (more physics and chemistry, some biology), geometry (Euclid, books 1 - 3), History, Phys Ed. Latin was an option instead of German.

Grade 11:

English (2), French(2), Latin(2), Algebra, Chemistry, History, Phys ed.

Grade 12:

English (2), French(2), Latin(2), Algebra, Physics, History, Phys ed.

In the ordinary course of events, you could graduate here or take another year with a view to university admission. You needed nine credits to be considered for admission.

Grade 13: English(2), Latin(2), Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Chemistry, Physics, Problems

You had to take the Problems course, which was a kind of problem solving using all the other subjects, if you were applying for a scholarship.

At the end of all this, I applied to and was accepted by Queen's university at Kingston, ON. I took a year off to earn some money for tuition and keep. There were no student loans or other assistance in those days except for scholarships and bursaries. I didn't get a big scholarship, so had to make some money.

The engineering tution in those days was around $600 including lab fees, but you needed another $100 for books and supplies, plus about another $1000 for living. At Queen's in the early 1950s, there were no men's residences so I lived in a student boarding house. At the end of the first year, after passing the Surveying Field School which was pre-requisite for admission to the second year, my summer job evaporated because of a steel strike. So I went to work for a chartered bank, and the rest is history.

I think the curricula have been considerably softened up since, and it is much easier to get into university and get funding. I don't look back to those as "good old days". In fact they were rather horrible, driven, and misdirected.

  Edited July 2, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Duke87 1,070]

Now lemme see, what did my high school course load look like? It doesn't all quite simply fit an outline but this is basically what it was:

Grade 9:

- World History I (middle ages through French Revolution)

- Algebra I (despite the fact that I'd already done it in 8th grade...)

- 9th grade English (mostly 20th century American literature)

- Earth Sciences

- Criminal Justice

- "Group" (social skills training)

Grade 10:

- World History II (Mesopotamia through Rome)

- Geometry

- 10th grade English (still mostly 20th century American literature)

- Biology

- Health

- Phys. Ed

Grade 11:

- US History

- Algebra II

- 11th grade English (19th-20th century American literature with a splash of Shakespeare)

- Chemistry

- Psychology

- Phys. Ed

Grade 12:

- Italian

- Pre-Calculus

- 12th grade English (all English (as in, from England) literature)

- Physics

- CAD Drafting

- Civics

My experience was not typical, though, as I spent the first 2½ years of high school in an out of district special ed placement. A fact which nowadays surprises people when (if) I tell them...

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Interesting, and not very intense, I think. What year was that?

[Duke87 1,070]

2001-2005.

And as I said, my experience was not typical. Most kids my age took seven classes a year, not six (I had a "resource" period which is basically like a study hall). Anyone who was in regular school the whole time advanced further in the first few years and if they intended to go to college would have taken a few AP classes. It is quite exceptional that I went to college without having taken even a single honors class. But I did finish with a pretty high GPA (~3.6), and I did have fairly good SAT scores (690 math, 600 verbal). One of my teachers from the old "special" school wrote me a letter of recommendation which I never actually got to read but which I know must have said some great things since I know he saw that I had a lot of potential, far more than anyone else at that school.

All of this was to the point where I even ended up getting handed a presidential scholarship by the college I went to for about half of my tuition.

  Edited July 4, 2011 by Duke87  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Hmm. Almost fifty years after me. I am beginning to feel old. Found out tonight that I am older than Gordy Lightfoot by about a year. He was on Mansbridge One on One, and he looks eighty at least, but is still going strong. He'll die on stage.

But back on topic. Since I was in school, I think the sum of human knowledge has been advancing in an exponential curve, possibly driven by the Space Race. It is getting to the point where really good qualifications need more than one doctorate or a lot of post-doctoral training.

It used to be that getting a PhD. consisted of knowing a great deal about a very little area, but now it is broader. On the way you are expected to write papers that amplify your course of study without compromising your thesis. Perhaps a higher qualification, similar to the rank some professors have in Germany called privat dozent is becoming necessary.

My old physics professor was chief consulting engineer for the Canadian National Railway, but what he didn't know about physics and science in general would have gone on your thumb nail in 36 point type. He was a man for all seasons, and I don't think there are many of those around now.

[Easy Bakes 253]

2001-2005.

And as I said, my experience was not typical. Most kids my age took seven classes a year, not six (I had a "resource" period which is basically like a study hall). Anyone who was in regular school the whole time advanced further in the first few years and if they intended to go to college would have taken a few AP classes. It is quite exceptional that I went to college without having taken even a single honors class. But I did finish with a pretty high GPA (~3.6), and I did have fairly good SAT scores (690 math, 600 verbal). One of my teachers from the old "special" school wrote me a letter of recommendation which I never actually got to read but which I know must have said some great things since I know he saw that I had a lot of potential, far more than anyone else at that school.

All of this was to the point where I even ended up getting handed a presidential scholarship by the college I went to for about half of my tuition.

I never took any honors classes either and got in pretty easy with a 3.2 GPA

and about 1200 total on the SAT.

most state universitys today, sadly ,only require the ability of someone to write a check as an entrance exam.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

On the other hand, how about the private universities? We don't have state universities in Canada, only non-degree granting colleges.

[astronelson 339]

I go to one of our 38 public universities (the Australian National University, to be specific). There are only 4 private universities. Almost the complete opposite to Canada, it seems. I'll be paying for my education out of my taxes.

The public universities here can and do grant degrees. I'm studying for a Bachelor of Science.

[Duke87 1,070]

Discussion in the ramdom chat thread of randomness has ventured into this area, so, cross-posting relevant post:

We only did normal letter grades starting in 3rd grade. In Kindergarten, 1st, and 2nd grades, there was a different report card that rather than reporting grades in various subjects instead listed several skills and actions ("asks questions", "pays attention", etc.) which could be graded as Y (Yes), N (No), or MP (Making Progress). The elementary schools would also give grades for effort in addition to grades for performance. 1 = great effort, 2 = satisfactory effort, 3 = unsatisfactory effort. Middle and high schools didn't do this and just gave performance grades.

Speaking of ruining curves, we used to have this program called ELP (Extraordinary Learners' Program) in 2nd through 5th grade where bright kids would leave their normal class for a couple hours one day a week (in 5th grade, all day one day a week) to go and discuss subjects on a higher intelligence level. For 3rd through 5th grade admittance into the program was based on standardized test scores from the previous year, but since there was no state standardized testing in 1dt grade, instead they had another special exam they gave everyone involving questions along the lines "if you fold this like this and cut it like that, what does it end up looking like?". It was 30 multiple choice questions. Getting 15 out of 30 correct was considered exceptional and garnered you admission into ELP. Guess who got 30 out of 30 correct.

It's a shame, though... this ELP program no longer exists. It was axed nearly ten years ago in a round of budget cuts, partly for it being politically incorrect to treat any gifted kids as special, and partly because it did not help meet the requirements of the new federal No Child Left Behind Act. So now the smart kids don't get their skills developed to their full potential, and the not-so-smart kids get pushed to meet goals they cannot. Utter insanity.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

The letter grade system came in with Grade 2 in 1943. Grade 1 you got either S for satisfactory or U for unsatisfactory. If you got any U's parents were expected to drop in for a talk. You could also fail grade I and have to do it over, as you could all the way through school when I was in the public system. You were allowed two years to get through Grade XIII (since abolished) to achieve the necessary nine credits with good standing for university admission. Requirements now are six OAC's (Ontario Academic Credits) which can be earned starting in Grade XI. Kids are not allowed to stay in high-school after their nineteenth birthday. If they don't make it, they have to take a GED course and proceed to some other goals.

The "No child left behind" program is nonsense. This is a symptom of a government that tries to drag every kid down to the lowest level, and those that excel, but do not have private school finds are probably drop outs. If a kid can't, steps need to be taken to find out why, and if remedial work is needed, then it should be supplied, not by the beleaguered classroom teacher, but by a team of specialists. Bright kids should be advanced at whatever pace they can achieve. Funding cuts in this area is a smash at the future.

I have nothing against kids earning university credits while still attending other public schools. When I was working in the math faculty at the university of Waterloo we had one kid who had taken all the courses in the first year honors math program by the time he graduated from high school. While he was allowed to take these courses with the connivance of several faculty members, including the dean of math, it was very unofficial because the university got no grant for his attendance. Funny, he had an account on the graduate studies computer network that I was administering. Wonder how he got that? He eventually registered in Physics and had a very interesting course load, indeed. I gather from friends still there after I left that he eventually got a PhD. in general relativity.

  Edited July 4, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Thanks, Barbarossa. You beat me to it.

Modern novels would be a better paradigm than Shakespeare, but most don't have the other didactic values that a Shakespeare tragedy has. Many of them are historical and except for dramatic license, quite accurate. They are written in iambic pentameter, a common poetic form, and therefore make an interesting introduction to poetry complete with thud and blunder. There is a large body of supporting literature to go with them including many editions of simplified "notes".

A good English teacher covers the ground by taking the students into the milieu of the play being considered, exposing the students to Elizabethan or earlier social values and times, so that references in plays can be understood by the class. A Shakespeare play is a gold mine of such values that it makes teaching interesting and easier because of the depth of material to be found in one slim volume. I was exposed to the Scottish play twice in high school: once in grade IX when it mostly went over our immature heads, and finally in grade XIII, when the full impact was felt by all. Wheee!

Another advantage to Shakespeare is that definitive performances are now available on DVD everywhere, and they are often broadcast. Who can deny that the Olivier Hamlet sets the standard for this play's performance. Shot in Elsinore (Denmark), it gives the full picture of the confused boy who can't decide to push his fate, and the corrupt court of the time.

Recently, the Kenneth Branaugh interpretation of the Scottish play was one of the best I have ever seen. What modern novel, perhaps Gone with the Wind, can produce a media performance of such power? In America, perhaps this is a good tool for senior secondary students, but the picture is rather long. The view of the Civil War and the southern view of the result is, perhaps, too strong for some secondary school boards, but I don't think it would bother the students.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Thanks, Barbarossa. You beat me to it.

Modern novels would be a better paradigm than Shakespeare, but most don't have the other didactic values that a Shakespeare tragedy has. Many of them are historical and except for dramatic license, quite accurate. They are written in iambic pentameter, a common poetic form, and therefore make an interesting introduction to poetry complete with thud and blunder. There is a large body of supporting literature to go with them including many editions of simplified "notes".

A good English teacher covers the ground by taking the students into the milieu of the play being considered, exposing the students to Elizabethan or earlier social values and times, so that references in plays can be understood by the class. A Shakespeare play is a gold mine of such values that it makes teaching interesting and easier because of the depth of material to be found in one slim volume. I was exposed to the Scottish play twice in high school: once in grade IX when it mostly went over our immature heads, and finally in grade XIII, when the full impact was felt by all. Wheee!

Another advantage to Shakespeare is that definitive performances are now available on DVD everywhere, and they are often broadcast. Who can deny that the Olivier Hamlet sets the standard for this play's performance. Shot in Elsinore (Denmark), it gives the full picture of the confused boy who can't decide to push his fate, and the corrupt court of the time.

Recently, the Kenneth Branaugh interpretation of the Scottish play was one of the best I have ever seen. What modern novel, perhaps Gone with the Wind, can produce a media performance of such power? In America, perhaps this is a good tool for senior secondary students, but the picture is rather long. The view of the Civil War and the southern view of the result is, perhaps, too strong for some secondary school boards, but I don't think it would bother the students.

ill throw in Remarque's All's Quiet on the Western Front to do that.

[Duke87 1,070]

Ultimately I'd say the best books to read in English classes will be books the students find interesting. This way they'll pay attention and learn from the reading rather than just treating it as a chore.

Which shouldn't really be difficult to do. There are plenty of respectable books to read that are more modern and that teens can enjoy and/or relate to. The Catcher in the Rye is an obvious example. Pick something by Kurt Vonnegut (I recommend Slaughterhouse-Five). Pick something by Robert Cormier (best choice: The Chocolate War). Pick something by Lois Duncan (but NOT I Know What You Did Last Summer - I'd recommend either Killing Mr. Griffin or Daughters of Eve).

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Well, I've read most of those, and they are all worthy of secondary level study, IMHO. I was responding to the slur about the Bard.

There are other good authors and short novels around that make good book report assignments. Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea comes to mind immediately. A fascinating study of steady determination. I read it when it was serialized in Life magazine, many, many years ago.

There are so many good pieces of literature that the task of picking a set for a curriculum is staggering. Students read a lot of pap as well as some interesting works. It is the job of the teacher to do enough hype and background teaching to get interest going. Just assigning some obscure story is not the way to fly. I hated Brave New World for years before I finally caught on after reading 1984.

Mark Twain's Personal Recollections of St. Joan would make a good story to study for kids interested in that period of history and the behavior of a captive clergy. Other Twain works have to be introduced with cautious explanation of how things were in middle America, for example, if you are going to assign Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn. Getting either of these past some rather ridiculous parental objections is a problem.

As for poetry, America is full of it. A slight jump across the border would also give you Pauline Johnson or Robert Service among many others. Is it possible to go to school in America without rubbing shoulders with Walt Whitman?

Is it possible that a Canadian student has missed Roche Carrière's The Hockey Sweater?

  Edited July 8, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

What choices did you have in mind?

They have to learn the basics and a little of how to think through a problem. That is the function of education of up the end of secondary school. They have to know enough so that when they arrive at the smörgåsbord of knowledge in the post-secondary world they can make bright choices for their future wants.

One of the problems of the old curricula is that they attempted to stream students into directions that were often unsuitable. I was one of those victims, and it streamed me into applied science instead of general arts. What a horrible mistake. It took me twenty years to recover.

Before the end of secondary school, students should have a feel for whether their talent lies in a specific direction, but not if they are not exposed to a wide set of ideas and choices. This kind of curriculum would definitely leave some children behind (the eight ball). So be it. We can't all conduct the orchestra. Some of us get to push spit through the tuba. Public school is the great chance to uncover talent, but all it seems to do is stifle it.

  Edited July 8, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

My goodness, that ^ writing is more than my patience will stand. Please edit it and add some punctuation, capitalization and white space. The whole thing is a vast run-on sentence, and if it is kind of thing you turn in to your teachers you should get an F.

[astronelson 339]

Biology teaches the basics behind biotech, and many schools offer IT classes.

The main difference between, say, an average school in China and an average school in the West is that the students in China tend to pay attention in class. It's hard to impart anything onto a mind a million miles away from the rest of the world.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Biology teaches the basics behind biotech, and many schools offer IT classes.

The main difference between, say, an average school in China and an average school in the West is that the students in China tend to pay attention in class. It's hard to impart anything onto a mind a million miles away from the rest of the world.

A very good point. In China, teachers are respected (and some are feared) by the students. Chinese family mores are very strong on respect for elders and authority.

Here it quickly goes to defiance. Young smart-alec's think they know it all, when they've just started out. Only a two-by-four between the ears gets their attention.

[hym 358]

Here it quickly goes to defiance. Young smart-alec's think they know it all, when they've just started out. Only a two-by-four between the ears gets their attention.

Part of that defiance can be attributed to idiot adults. I've met adults who think they deserve respect because they are older than me, never mind the fact that at 15 I'm beyond what they will ever achieve.

[Duke87 1,070]

It's always fascinating how much people ignore or just forget.

There was a girl in my introductory college chemistry class who was quite impressed that I seemed to already know everything the professor was teaching. But I found it a strange thing to be complemented on because, as I pointed out to her, there was nothing being taught which had not already been taught in chemistry in high school. To which the response was "wow, you remember all that stuff from high school chem class!?" Why yes, yes I do, and it's depressing that you find that impressive.

This is just one example. I find myself in all too many situations where I spurt out some fact that someone is impressed I know, to which all I can really say is "well, if you were paying attention in X class in school you'd probably have known that, too".

I mean, okay, it's not as though I never neglected to pay attention in class. I did it all the time. But with all the repetitiveness in teaching things, I didn't really miss much as a result of it. It's quite amazing how many times in school they go back over the same stuff they already taught you a couple years ago. And despite that, everyone still manages to not absorb the material. What the hell is wrong with people?