The Current State of the American Education System.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

It appears that there is a movement afoot which could easily be called Historical Political Correctness.  When a people can no longer face up to the facts of their history, an HPC movement always appears.  This makes it difficult for archaeologists and others a few years on.  The HPC movemnt in ancient Egypt did the job on Aken-Aten.

For many years, the slave trade was a lynchpin of the American economy, especially in the southern agricultural states.  While we consider this to be reprehensible now, let us not forget that slavery was the norm for thousands of years.  I believe it is still practiced in some societies today.

Instead of using HPC to attempt to hide from this, why not be proud of the fact that it has been overcome?  Mr. Lincoln wouldn't hide from the facts, why should anyone?

[Wrightguy0 40]

now it may be known as atlantic triangular trade, but which part of that trade triangle had the most effect on american history, the slave aspect, now i can excuse it for the more correct term, but the other changes to the curriculum, such as omitting details on the McCarthy hearings, diminishing the Role of Jefferson and the very reasons they were changed, as part of a culture war against liberal education is morally dubious and is, in my opinion, a way to twist and warp children, a school is designed to provide unbiased information to children, if you want your child to learn your values, teach them at home, or in church, don't force the will of a few right wing moralists on the rest of the children, it is far from right, not to mention there are undertones of xenophobia, racism, religious fanaticism

"Some board members themselves acknowledged this morning that the process for revising curriculum standards in Texas is seriously broken, with politics and personal agendas dominating just about every decision," said Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network

now should we let such a broken system influence the textbook industry? if you ask me the situation needs federal intervention

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Revisionist are dangerous felons.  Remember the old adage "Who is the worse murderer:  He who kills his fellow man; or he who kills the truth?"

Maybe these guys sitting in their tiny pond trying to be big frogs should be enchanted into cockroaches.  Their behaviour is appropriate.

What ever happened to Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Revisionist are dangerous felons.  Remember the old adage "Who is the worse murderer:  He who kills his fellow man; or he who kills the truth?"

Maybe these guys sitting in their tiny pond trying to be big frogs should be enchanted into cockroaches.  Their behaviour is appropriate.

What ever happened to Truth, Justice, and the American Way?quote>

That died when they  killed Superman.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Revisionist are dangerous felons.  Remember the old adage "Who is the worse murderer:  He who kills his fellow man; or he who kills the truth?"

Maybe these guys sitting in their tiny pond trying to be big frogs should be enchanted into cockroaches.  Their behaviour is appropriate.

What ever happened to Truth, Justice, and the American Way?quote>

That died when they  killed Superman.

quote>

I guess we'll just have to settle for "Peace, Order, and Good Government".

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Wrightguy0

now should we let such a broken system influence the textbook industry? if you ask me the situation needs federal interventionquote>

Federal intervention in private industries often doesn't work out well to the benefit of anyone.

Also there is the fact that education standards are the domain of the states; attempts by the federal government to assume control of those standards will likely find stiff opposition from the states, which is not something the federal government wants.  (Federal law does supersede state law, but it is possible for the states to put enough pressure on the federal government that the federal government acquiesces to the demands of the states.)

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Alas, there are too many jealously-guarded states rights.  The result is that you get school boards acting like educaterers, pandering to the tastes of their constituents while abdicating their jobs as educators.

Now states rights have their points.  If the states don't protect their little money pots, the feds will have to take this on.  We know what spend-thrifs the feds are.

Today, in Canada, our feds are moving to take control of securites exchanges, of which we have 13 regulatory bodies, one per province or territory.  It is going to happen, and we will have one secuities regulator, but it has taken since 1935 to get to this point, and it has been referred to our Supreme Court to muzzle the maverick provinces.

Now, imagine what would happen in the United States if the feds tried such a thing on some item, like education, that is part of the state-rights package?  Would the fillibuster ever end?

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, see that's just the thing about federal interventon: the people don't want it. Indeed, the very existence of a federal department of education is quite contentious.

You can weigh the pros and cons all you want... it doesn't matter. If the populace is opposed to it, it won't work. No system can be successful if people do not cooperate with it. Which they won't if they don't like it.

True, Texas is doing a few, er, interesting things with their curricula right now, but that's generally considered preferable to having a federal board do exactly the same thing: fudge things for political and ideaological reasons. Which, naturally, they would, because people in Washington have agendas just like people in Austin do.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[morriswalters 16]

Everybody has an agenda.  Let Texans do what they want, it won't hurt anyone.  Most students are so poorly taught they will never notice what they don't have.  For those who don't like Federal intervention, more power to them.  Stop taking the money and the Feds lose their leverage.  The laugher here is that the States have had a free ride because of Federal funding and have never had to fund schools completely.

[saltandsauce 0]

Not that my two pence matters,

don't you think that this is a matter for Texans to discuss and want change.

The Texan cirriculum doesn't affect anyone who doesn't live in Texas

in other words. for most people here it's noneof your business

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Who is it, exactly, that says "the people don't want it"?  The Dept of Education is only contentious to mad conservatives and their close neighbor, Libertarians.quote>

You just answered your own question there. Quote unquote "mad" conservatives and libertarians don't like it. That covers quite a few people.

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

don't you think that this is a matter for Texans to discuss and want change.

The Texan cirriculum doesn't affect anyone who doesn't live in Texas

in other words. for most people here it's noneof your business

quote>

This.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: Duke87

Well, see that's just the thing about federal interventon: the people don't want it. Indeed, the very existence of a federal department of education is quite contentious.

You can weigh the pros and cons all you want... it doesn't matter. If the populace is opposed to it, it won't work. No system can be successful if people do not cooperate with it. Which they won't if they don't like it.

True, Texas is doing a few, er, interesting things with their curricula right now, but that's generally considered preferable to having a federal board do exactly the same thing: fudge things for political and ideaological reasons. Which, naturally, they would, because people in Washington have agendas just like people in Austin do.

quote>

Care to provide any statistics or case studies?  Who is it, exactly, that says "the people don't want it"?  The Dept of Education is only contentious to mad conservatives and their close neighbor, Libertarians.  The main problem with the Dept of Education is that it is run by theorists, not by the grunts on the ground.

Barbarossaquote>

The people that voted these people that made these changes out of office almost as soon as it was found out the changes they were going to make. To bad it was too late and they are lame ducks who kept on pushing thier agendas through.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Not that my two pence matters,

don't you think that this is a matter for Texans to discuss and want change.

The Texan cirriculum doesn't affect anyone who doesn't live in Texas

in other words. for most people here it's noneof your business

quote>

Texas has 4.8 million students in it's educational system.  That is more students from K-12 than 28 states have total population.  As a result, Texas's textbook standards tend to become the national standards simply because Texas has so many students.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Well California holds a large sway on education and most of the west is influenced by California. You need to go to good private school or a public school near to multi-national corporate headquarters (like in Bellevue) in order to get fully independent text books.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

{rant}

WRT the feds and the education theorists:  We have a similar organization in Ontario called the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (OISE).  This bunch have the power to impose theoretical curricula on the schools of the province and have done so in the past.  They have actually made things like non-base 10 number systems required in the primary schools as low as grade 3.  When Johnny is having enough trouble with socialization and acquiring good learning habits, he now has to contend with meaningless number systems like base 12 which is of no use to anyone except abstruse mathmaticians.

A good understanding of base 10, its additive and multiplicative identities is more important than showing that the same apply in other number system.  Johnny needs to learn how to do base 10 arithmetic in his head or on paper so that when the batteries in his electronic gadgets are dead, he can still figure out what change he should be getting at the store.

Such advanced thinking in education has led to a lot of disruption, and orphaning of parents from the kids because they do not understand what the kids are learning in school.  Parents are supposed to be able to help the kids understand what is going on at school, and toss in a little help once in a while.  OISE never thought to put a parent upgrade course of some kind in place, so the kids in a new curriculum find themselves alienated from their parents because of lack of exposure to the material.  These so-called education theorists need to find laboratories that are out of the main stream of the public schools.

{/rant}

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

{rant}

WRT the feds and the education theorists:  We have a similar organization in Ontario called the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (OISE).  This bunch have the power to impose theoretical curricula on the schools of the province and have done so in the past.  They have actually made things like non-base 10 number systems required in the primary schools as low as grade 3.  When Johnny is having enough trouble with socialization and acquiring good learning habits, he now has to contend with meaningless number systems like base 12 which is of no use to anyone except abstruse mathmaticians.

A good understanding of base 10, its additive and multiplicative identities is more important than showing that the same apply in other number system.  Johnny needs to learn how to do base 10 arithmetic in his head or on paper so that when the batteries in his electronic gadgets are dead, he can still figure out what change he should be getting at the store.

Such advanced thinking in education has led to a lot of disruption, and orphaning of parents from the kids because they do not understand what the kids are learning in school.  Parents are supposed to be able to help the kids understand what is going on at school, and toss in a little help once in a while.  OISE never thought to put a parent upgrade course of some kind in place, so the kids in a new curriculum find themselves alienated from their parents because of lack of exposure to the material.  These so-called education theorists need to find laboratories that are out of the main stream of the public schools.{/rant} quote>

Thats part of the problem with nation wide educational programs

the same teaching practices that work in some small rural town in minnisota  have no place in the huge Dallas schools.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Western Washington's text books are not effected by Texas at all and are definitely effected by California.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

Western Washington's text books are not effected by Texas at all and are definitely effected by California.quote>

While I don't live in California or Washington, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that Texas's textbook standards don't influence the standards everywhere else.  Educators as far away as New York feel they will be affected by Texas's new textbook standards.  To quote part of this website:

Texas is a very influential state for textbook manufacturers. State curriculum standards determine the content that will be included in new editions. Experts estimate that the decisions made by the Texas Board of Education affect the textbooks used in 46 other states because it is one of the largest purchasers of textbooks in the nation. In effect, Texas curriculum standards shape the content students will learn across the entire nation.quote>

That's 47 states who either use the Texas standards or are forced to at least partially adopt them.  California, Oregon, and Washington could be their own little island in the middle of the "Textbook Standards Sea", but I kind of doubt it.

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Personally, I consider the actions of the TxBoE to be an assualt on every other state in the union by controlling what the publisher's options are.quote>

It is still possible that the standards will ultimately be rejected.  While Texas is buying the books, the school districts have the option of using other textbooks if they so desire.  Also, gubernatorial candidate Bill White has voiced his desire to fight the new standard in the event he receives the election.

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Thats part of the problem with nation wide educational programs

the same teaching practices that work in some small rural town in minnisota  have no place in the huge Dallas schools.

quote>

Well, we were talking about curricula and not didactic practice or techniques.  A common curriculum can be taught in many ways.  As a retired college teacher, I know this to be the fact.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

I assume Bill White is the donkey?quote>

Correct.  (I could make a joke here, but I'll be good and will let the opportunity pass. )

[Easy Bakes 253]

once again the DISD throws a mountian at a molehill of a problem.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/DN-overageschool_12met.ART.State.Edition2.50e2774.html

Actualy its a concerning problem but are there not programs in place to already to take care of these students?

Like mabey  if your 21 and still in 9th grade ( high school year 1 here )  school might not be the best thing for you?

you  can take a GED or High school equvilancy test when your 17. did  noone point this out to these students?

So it seems their going to throw money at this problem rather then solve the issue.

Arghhhh 

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Oregon is more conservative than western Washington but I know for a fact that California is not only independent of Texas, it also has a sizable influence on the national textbook market. California is the biggest influence on Western Washington's text book out of all the other states. Washington also has its own ideas but Seattle wants to be the next San Francisco.

[portlander420 2]

yes oregon tries very hard to remain self sufficent such as farming and solar it is 1 of the last "green states"

sorry if i was off topic oh and moose, love your signature

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Yay! Public schools get billions of new funding thanks to "embellishments" and exaggerations! Does the end justify the means?

[A Nonny Moose 8,263]

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

Yay! Public schools get billions of new funding thanks to "embellishments" and exaggerations! Does the end justify the means?quote>

Since this thread hasn't been active over the summer, maybe you should have included a reference to what you are talking about?