Crazy Tom Cruise babbling about scientology

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: El Burro Ah, people will protest against anything these days. Maybe the Scientologists feel that Psychiatrists hurt the poor little Alien ghost inside of people...

What drives people to believe in such an insane Religious ideaology is beyond me... their worse than Trekkies... lol.quote>

No, it's not because our alien souls are hurt, but but you're nurturing them... Why picket these psychiatrist? Psychologs with prescription pads, exactly what they need. Well, if your creed's basic pillar is tax scam, so... Maybe these accept cheques written in blood Burro? Try one and tell us if you're allowed to be enlightened!quote>

I'm not rich enough to be a Scientologist... but I wanna embrace my inner Alien!

...

I remember when I was 7 the Teacher asked us how we thought life came to Earth, most people said 'God!' but I gave her this wackjob theory about how Giant Mosquitoe's had brought us from Mars... maybe I should start my own Religion... if people believe Scientology then they'll belive my insane inner 7 year old!

[NYankees24 0]

True, only scientologists believe in that same genre of ideal only a fully grown man game up with the theory that they are alien souls from other galaxies. You might just be a great prophet!!

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[patriots_1228 51]

"OMG tom ya gotta come outta tha closet tom omg"

[Chrisdragon 0]

Scientology is a crock and rip, plain and simple.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Simfan34

Oh dear. And I thought that Scientolgy was just some Christian sect.quote>

No, it's not a Christian sect but I'm not sure that the word "cult" applies either.  I always thought to be a "cult" required that the members withdraw from society and live in a controlled environment, like Jim Jones and his crowd.  Most scientologists are integrated into society and have normal jobs and stuff.  Well, not that Tom Cruise has a normal job but he isn't living in some walled off compound somewhere.quote>

In general, a cult is a religious group that is absorbed in the adoration of an ideal, a set of rites, or a person.  While I am not looking to start a new digression (believe me on this one), there are many observers who identify Christianity as a cult, since believers of the faith are absorbed with idea of Jesus, as opposed to the basic tenets he shared with Judaism, and to some, have therefore left the worship of God and moved to worship of an avatar.

Scientology fits the definition of a cult.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult

Barbarossaquote>

The "working definition" I've always heard was that the group generally claimed to have a monopoly on truth and all other individuals were going to miss out on eternal salvation.  To work with what you were saying earlier (and I'm not trying to cause a digression either), it would be akin to a Baptist telling a Methodist he's going to Hell simply because he isn't Baptist.

If anyone is interested, I have some "identification marks" that are, by some, considered reliable marks of whether a group is a cult.  I have tried to pick the fairly objective ones (meaning I'm not including "Well, he's obviously a cult member because he doesn't believe the same thing as me" comments).  While I'm not going to make a "In light of this evidence, it obviously must be XYZ" argument, I am going to point out stuff that is of interest to me.  Make of the list what you will.

(a)  The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i.  THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong.  THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL -everyone else is in apostasy. 

(b)  They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse personal  rights and freedoms.   This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL,  SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.  Personal note:  Does anyone remember the reporter that freaked out because he felt a Church of Scientology representative was using brain washing tactics on him?

HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. 

2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding other churchs while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work. 

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc.  This is a vital part of the mind control process.

4.    Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the  group.  This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property  on  entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contr

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Simfan34Q]Now I'm with Germany one this! quote>

I'm not fond of the group either but declaring a religion to be illegal is one step away from declaring a state religion.   Of course, it depends on the definition of "religion".  As Robert Heinlien said, a skating rink is a house of worship as long as some sect declares skating to be essential to practicing their beliefs.  quote>

This isn't about the religion as such, but their practices. I think Germany and other countries should be scared when you look at their hostilites toward governments. Besides, they're under suspicion from Verfassungschutz, i.e. for being unconstitutional (like the communists were during the cold war), not because it's a "religion". They already claim they're "recognised" as a religion in Denmark because one of their coverorganisations are tax-exempt (the cover organisation make no mentions of Scientology, but are dedicated to human rights(!)).

[Easy Bakes 253]

Roller Derby is essential to my religion.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

In general, a cult is a religious group that is absorbed in the adoration of an ideal, a set of rites, or a person.  quote>

and religions don't?      How many religions don't have ideals or a set of rites?

While I am not looking to start a new digression (believe me on this one), there are many observers who identify Christianity as a cult, since believers of the faith are absorbed with idea of Jesus, as opposed to the basic tenets he shared with Judaism, and to some, have therefore left the worship of God and moved to worship of an avatar. quote>

That Heinlein book that N_O_Body mentioned (the one with the Fosterites) said that there are no definitions of the words "cult" and "religion" that logically separates the two. (I'm paraphrasing big time on that.)  I've been looking for definitions ever since and haven't found them.

Maybe you are right; maybe we shouldn't digress on this.  But I found hym's points intriguing so I shall respond to them.

Originally posted by: hym

(a)  The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. e.i.  THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong.  THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL -everyone else is in apostasy.  quote>

quote>

Don't most religions hold this view?   For a long time, I've believed that the world would be a much better place if everyone gave up the "my way or the highway" approach but, if in the House of Worship thread, there are several people adamantly holding this view.  By this definition, they are cultists.   I think "extremist" would be a better word but that's a whole nother definition.

(b)  They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse personal  rights and freedoms.   This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL,  SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.quote>

I'd add physical to that list.  It does happen.

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.  quote>

Again, don't most religions claim this?

2. They believe they are the only true church and take a critical stance regarding other churchs while at the same time praising and exalting their own group, leader/s and work.  quote>

How many churches take the position they are not the only true church?  As Zelgadis has pointed out elsewhere, this is common among eastern religions, not so common among western ones.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc.  This is a vital part of the mind control process. quote>

Any "fire and brimstone" speech falls under this heading.  It happens all the time..

4.    Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the  group.  This could be compulsory tithing (which is checked); signing over all their property  on  entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines,  flowers or other goods for the group as part of their "ministry".  quote>

Many mainstream relig

[krbe 193]

1) You'll find few priests in mainstream religions claiming they have a "exclusive" ministry; they're working with thousands of others, while cults are generally small, with a strong leader/-ship couple.

2) Being the only true church would mean that ALL others are wrong -- and few churches take that stance. If this was true, the Church of England would have been cooperated with churches in Scandinavia and the Baltics, and, among other things, share priests. Even the catholic church recognises the other Christian branches.

4) Yes, you might have to pay to be a member, but this is quite normal for any group of people performing activites that need to be funded. And it's usually not "substantial". Sport clubs tend to be more agressive on this one than churches. Few people would tell you that they had been "coerced" into a bake sale.

6) "Total" is the key word here -- while the scientologist had to have the divorce "okayed" there is something wrong. That's a "You are not going to do that (for the sake of the group)"-mentality, while priests have a more "You shouldn't do that (for the sake of the religion)"-mentality. The scientologiest probably felt that she couldn't (or wouldn't for brain washing), while your aunt probably felt that she shouldn't.

School, not religion (albeit religious school to be fair -- they tend to have a mor cult-ish appearance under a strong leader).

9) That last sentece certainly describes  Scientology.

10) I'd much rather have a catholic "fire and brimstone" lecture than have the scientologiest trying to impose Stalinist dissent-measures upon me.

Rights and freedoms 

1) Schools are usually that way -- either by staff or kids. If  it's staff, it's usually because of the leadership problem.

3) I bet the priest didn't tell her to do that; infact they sometimes have to discourage people from supporting the group because it seriously destroys their (secular) lives.

5) I see few (infact none) mainstream religions demanding to use all or almost all of their time within the church.

ANd the baptist you know; I'm sure everybody know someone that hold that point of view. The churches themselves however recognises that most other churchs are branches of the same tree that they are.

[Meg 368]

You raise several valid points.  Thank you.

Sometimes I think the only difference between a religion and a cult is longevity.   Didn't all religions look like cults in the beginning?

But I think the key difference here boils down to control.  Specifically, the degree and nature of the control of the organization over the individual.

[krbe 193]

At least they started as small groups with clear leaders. According to my religion teacher, they must hold the exclusive truth and the exclusive leaders who can reveal this truth. Think of Muhammad, which were the exclusive leader which could reveal the truths of Allah. A modern day iman don't have that position, eve though Islam excersies thigh control over the lower branches (the ordinary believers); at the top however, there are several high profile universities and teachers which discusses the application of Islam in a modern day enviroment (but I'll have to say they come up with some pretty odd answers every now and then).

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

One of the sticky wickets of freedom is, issues like Scientology. For every set of rules, somebody has a crazy scheme to 'beat the system'. LRH used the freedom of religion clause to fleece the IRS, and like they say about India...start a religion and you'll have 1000 followers by nightfall. 

From a Christian's point of view, the Bible says that if one rejects Christ, they are subject to believe anything [2 Timothy 4:4.] 

But that's for those of us who put stock in it. I could certainly sympathize with a non-believer using Scientology as an argument against all religion, but by my belief system, LRH certainly isn't laughing at anyone right now. He'd kill for some icewater, though.

[tonto_101 0]

This is my first post here at Simtropolis, but I found this topic so interesting I thought I might like to have a say. I'm a Baptist and a Southerner, so I probably have homed on a few points more than others have. I apologize if I seem to digress, I intend to get back to the point, but I feel the need to represent my beliefs in a better light than it has been portrayed.

Most of the Baptists I know don't believe that other Christians are doomed to hell or purgation (we don't believe in purgatory). That includes Catholic, Orthodox, and the many Protestant denominations. I am personally disconcerted by my fellow Christians making any such divine proclamations. I have relatives who have converted to Mormonism, and while I hardly believe that their faith is right, but I hardly believe they are damned. Baptist churches are fiercely independent of one another, so you'll get a lot of different viewpoints if you ask around. I'm personally not at all a relativist in my beliefs, I simply believe that God judges the quality of a man or woman, not any human.

I cannot, however, disconfirm what SciGeek and hym have said about some Baptists wailing about all the various "apostates" out there. Those folks tend to be the most extreme in the crowd. You won't normally hear the regular folks around the pew get up and say "Ahem...sorry, I don't believe that." This is true for pretty much every major religious (or political) group or subset out there. The only religions that don't spend too much time railing on the others, in my opinion, are the Hindus and Buddhists, who are greatly concerned with personal merits as a gateway to salvation or enlightenment.

Scientology, in my understanding, focuses greatly on enlightenment, as described by L Ron Hubbard. One of the reasons that lots of folks ostracize them is because their beliefs (alien overlords, evil spirits in your body, spaceships) seem pretty silly. I would venture to say that such beliefs seem as silly to me as the biblical creation story must seem to most atheists and agnostics. If you follow my points, I'm going to walk out on a limb and suggest that Tom Cruise might just be one of the various fanatics that you'll find in any faith. However, unlike a Baptist, bible-beating, flagellant, tent-revivalist, self-proclaimed-prophet (yes, they're out there) or a violent Mujahadeen, Tom Cruise doesn't strike me with elemental fear. At his level of "Ascension" he's supposed to be able to bend spoons with mind waves, so he's either very modest or a total quack. I feel the same way about "Uncle Hub", but he started the belief system. It wouldn't be right for me to make any snap judgements about the rest of the Scientologists out there. I'm sure they're just as diverse a crowd as the folks I've met at the churches I've attended, with all of the same faults and vulnerabilities we all have.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: tonto_101

I cannot, however, disconfirm what SciGeek and hym have said about some Baptists wailing about all the various "apostates" out there. Those folks tend to be the most extreme in the crowd. quote>

Yes, those are the extremists.  I don't believe that every Baptist believes that.

You've been around a bit long for me to say this but I'll say it anyway in honor of your first post:  Welcome to Simtropolis.

[hamsterTK 93]

Careful...we don't want any trouble...if you know what' I'm saying...

My take on it is that both the cult and the controversy both combine to form one of the biggest piles of tabloidesque BS in the history of earth. But hey, what do you expect from a religion based in Hollywood

As for Tom Cruise, I feel the same way for Britney Spears. They belong in the looney bin.

[tonto_101 0]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK

Careful...we don't want any trouble...if you know what' I'm saying...

quote>

Well, if you're speaking in regards to my comments, I'm not trying to spark any sort of religious debate.  Just commenting.

I do find more than a few things upsetting about scientologist beliefs.  The only guy I knew who flirted with scientology was pretty vulnerable when he went over.  I did a bit of research on them at the time and found that a lot of folks really hate them.  I started at a website called "Scientology Kills", go figure.  For a while, I was kind of drawn into the perception the website promoted.  They listed some pretty compelling reasons, but ultimately I couldn't clearly tell how much was propaganda and how much was reality.  It seems you figured out that much already though.

I will say this about the CoS.  I have family near Clearwater, Florida, apparently the home base of operations for CoS.  Scientology has brought a lot of money into the town, and its definitely a nice place.  But you can't shake the feeling that you're being watched when you go pass through certain areas of town.  A little bit Orwellian, but that's about as far as I'm willing to delve into the conspiracy stuff.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK

Careful...we don't want any trouble...if you know what' I'm saying...

quote>

Uh oh... I can already sense the evil forces of Xenu approaching Earth...

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

From a Christian's point of view, the Bible says that if one rejects Christ, they are subject to believe anything [2 Timothy 4:4.] 

But that's for those of us who put stock in it. I could certainly sympathize with a non-believer using Scientology as an argument against all religion, but by my belief system, LRH certainly isn't laughing at anyone right now. He'd kill for some icewater, though.quote>

I don't think this is something you could use against all religion. And I am a dirty heathen.

You don't have to agree with any of the actual religions to see that they each have some sort of value to them.

Scientology on the other hand, doesn't have a single redeeming quality. It's all a scam. They extort money, hold people against their will and they're responsible for quite a few (violent) deaths. The list of their crimes just goes on and on. There is nothing of the divine in this vile cult.

[hamsterTK 93]

Well, if you're speaking in regards to my comments, I'm not trying to spark any sort of religious debate. Just commenting.quote>

oops, sorry man, I didn't direct that to you at all

I meant to watch out for the scientologists...they don't take criticism well

[deadwoods 542]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK

Well, if you're speaking in regards to my comments, I'm not trying to spark any sort of religious debate. Just commenting.quote>

oops, sorry man, I didn't direct that to you at all

I meant to watch out for the scientologists...they don't take criticism well

quote>

And that's the crux of it. Take any mainstream religion; christianity, judaism, islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc. and you can go to any library or the internet and read realms about it. You can select a particular church/sect/denomination based on publicly available information and change if it doesn't work for you. When you shroud a religion in so much secrecy and "call in the lawyers" whenever something's said that you don't agree with, of course average folks will be suspicious. I for one think Scientology is a croc along with the other secretive religions (such as the Exclusive Bretheren here in Oz).

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: El Burro

I'm not rich enough to be a Scientologist...quote>

It's a bit late now, but this is really the centre of Scientology.

In other news, German historian Guido Knopp, who is know for his documentaries and books about the Nazi era, likens Tom Cruise and his http://youtube.com/watch?v=5cS3BFiGwgE, that of Third Reich minister of propaganda Jospeh Goebbels.

- It might be that Cruise's way of talking is common in some American religious movements. But no German cannot help but be reminded of Goebbels notorius speech, says Knopp. Ursula Caberta, the leader of the German "Workgroup Scientology", that monitors and analyzes the movement, says the video confirms that Cruise is acting as a "dooropener" for what German authorities believes is a totalitarian movement violating the Constitution.

But if Tom Cruise and other Scientology nut cases are trying to get people to believe that alien DC-8's, why shouldn't I believe that nazi UFO's has taken Hitler from this planet to a star where he plans the Fourth Reich?

[Odainsaker 2,137]

It won't be long till Tommy Cruise starts handing out the Kool-Aid at the next Scientology meeting. "The corrupt government tax investigators may be outside the compound gates, but the comet...errr...DC-8 has come to take Katie and my Baby Hubbard clone away!"