American 2008 Election

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Okay, take it easy everyone. Smile!

Originally posted by: SkiGeek Originally posted by: manticorefan

The idea of the Constitution as a 'living document' or is outdated is quite dangerous.

errr . . . isn't that what the amendment process is for?  To change the Constitution?  quote>

I wasn't referring to the amendment process, but rather those who believe that it gives too much freedom, or that our basic form of gov't needs to be overhauled; something I have seen earlier in this very thread.

...

You obviously are a DWEM-aphobe. (Dead White European Male).  quote>

   He's afraid of dead white european males?   Let's not call each other names.  Especially ones that make no sense.quote>

I would hope everyone including zel knows that I meant that in jest, using an acronym used by the Left in the '80s and '90s to refer to Western literature, philosophy, and political science. ...

Now people want to claim healthcare is a right, but without any legal precedent or backing. Constitutionally, it isn't and never has been. quote>

um . . . who is saying that exactly?   Yes, most Europeans believe healthcare is a right but if that's how they want to run their countries, that is their business.    Which Americans are saying that healthcare is a Constitutional right?  I know many who think that the healthcare system needs to be reformed and basic care is a good idea but who is saying it is Constitutionally mandated?  quote>

Both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton have stated that healthcare is a right, one would assume they mean Constitutional right or human right.

...

And I will keep my guns, thank you. Any candidate that wants to circumvent or abolish the protections of the Bill Of Rights isn't so much a candidate as a traitor. I would never vote for a office wannabe who espouses treason. Yes, treason. quote>

So the program to monitor telephone conversations without a court order is a violation of the 4th Amendment and therefore many people currently in office are traitors?quote>

In many cases, yes it is, and yes they are. Not all cases, but I would venture a guess that most of it is in direct violation of both the spirit and letter of the law. This activity isn't limited to the current administration, either. The subjects of the illegal surveillance just change.

...

Ron Paul is a strict constructionist, something he shares with a majority of the Supreme Court. As he has stated, our gov't cannot even fulfill the most basic of its Constitutional duties, and should not be taking on the burden of everyone's pet peeves in life. quote>

Out of curiosity, what kind of "pet peeves" are you talking about?quote>

Healthcare costs too much, gas costs too much, I'm wetting myself over Global Warming, etc.

...

The 'other 3' just want to 'tinker with the settings' of the perverse machine we have built; only RP has the guts to point out that the very existence of the machine is wrong and unConstitutional.quote>

What exactly are you calling "the machine"?   If you are referring to the dominance by two political parties, I can certainly agree that they have much mor

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

errr . . . isn't that what the amendment process is for?  To change the Constitution?  

It's not an easy process and takes more than a simple majority to accomplish but it's not impossible either.  There have been about half a dozen amendments just in my lifetime.

(The last one is among my favorites but that is an off-topic digression.)quote>

You mean that Congressional Pay amendment that no one noticed?

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

I would hope everyone including zel knows that I meant that in jest, using an acronym used by the Left in the '80s and '90s to refer to Western literature, philosophy, and political science. ...quote>

I recall the '80s and '90s well and don't remember that one. 

Both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton have stated that healthcare is a right, one would assume they mean Constitutional right or human right. quote>

Constitutional rights and human rights are not same thing.    For starters, other people on the planet have human rights.  (Personally, I think the stance that we, as in Americans, have more rights than everyone else is going to create a backlash.  but that's a different topic.)

So the program to monitor telephone conversations without a court order is a violation of the 4th Amendment and therefore many people currently in office are traitors?quote>

In many cases, yes it is, and yes they are. Not all cases, but I would venture a guess that most of it is in direct violation of both the spirit and letter of the law. This activity isn't limited to the current administration, either. The subjects of the illegal surveillance just change. quote>

I agree.

Out of curiosity, what kind of "pet peeves" are you talking about?quote>

Healthcare costs too much, gas costs too much, I'm wetting myself over Global Warming, etc. quote>

I think that calling those "pet peeves" is trivializing the problems.

Not just the 2 party system, in which both are terribly corrupt and neither one gives a flying rat's ass about the ordinary guy.  But also the influence that big money buys in policy; i.e. not being able to get any real tax reform because of the political contributions from tax lawyers.  quote>

Yeah, political contributions and lobbyists do distort the process.

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

errr . . . isn't that what the amendment process is for?  To change the Constitution?  

It's not an easy process and takes more than a simple majority to accomplish but it's not impossible either.  There have been about half a dozen amendments just in my lifetime.

(The last one is among my favorites but that is an off-topic digression.)quote>

You mean that Congressional Pay amendment that no one noticed?quote>

Yeah, that one     Isn't it great?

The proposed amendment was pretty basic:  Congress can't vote themselves a raise; the most they can do is vote the next Congress a raise.   (Putting limits on Congress giving itself money? What's not to like?)

It was originally proposed in 1789 and sat around unratified for nearly two centuries. 

Then some bright guy dug it up, dusted it off, and realized it was still active.  and managed to get it ratified 203 years after it was originally proposed.

How cool is that? 

(okay, so I'm a geek; we all knew that  )

[Zelgadis 638]

A side note:

Hillary Clinton stated after winning West Virginia that no Democrat has won the White House since 1916 without winning West Virginia.

Is anyone else sick and tired of hearing stupid tripe like that? Presidential candidates say it all the time. The media says it all the time. It proves nothing!!!

End rant

ISF

[Voar Tok 4]

Yeah, and how long had the whole thing gone on with the Redskins that if they won the last home game before the election, the incumbent stayed in office and if they lost, the new guy was voted in. Seems to me that the lost the last home game before the '04 election, and we all know how that election turned out.

So yes, I'm sick and tired of hearing this.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: zelgadis A side note:

Hillary Clinton stated after winning West Virginia that no Democrat has won the White House since 1916 without winning West Virginia.

quote>

Hillary Clinton stated after winning West Virginia that McCain was going to win the general election.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

The declarations of historical points come from something we all share; a need to know the future. The best way we can do it is by looking at the past, like looking at a stock's 1,3, & 5 year average to decide if it has a good chance of return. Or looking at a candidate's voting record to anticipate what they will do in office.

  Like they say about stocks, though: past performance is not a guarantee of future results. I have myself engaged in the same line of thinking because it's most consistent, like my belief that Obama cannot win due in part to his inability to secure the white Southern vote (no one's ever won without! lol). A part of it is racism, but a good deal of it is, quite frankly, his liberalism. If he mirrored Reagan in his platform, he could count on a larger portion of Southern whites. 

They jumped parties for Reagan, for issues over affiliation, in '80 and '84. They can be wooed, but not by big-city career politicians from the North most of the time.  And the merest whiff of Wright, Farrakhan, or Ted Kennedy drives them away like a hot dog vendor with leprosy.

[Voar Tok 4]

Watch what you say. You have basically made the entire South sound like a less extreme extension of the KKK - which is far from accurate.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

I didn't mean to denigrate the South or imply that it's a racist region. But it is more conservative than the rest of the country generally speaking, and has a great many 'blue dog Democrats', the kind that have deserted the Democratic Party over a liberal nominee in the past.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Clinton 'wins Kentucky primary'

Hillary Clinton insists that the battle to run for president is not yet over

Hillary Clinton has won Kentucky's Democratic presidential election primary, US networks have projected.

Voters are also going to the polls in Oregon, where surveys suggest Mrs Clinton's rival Barack Obama will win.

If Mr Obama performs well, he could win a majority of the elected delegates who will choose the party's nominee at the Democratic National Convention.

Mrs Clinton could still win, by gaining enough "super-delegates" - party elders who also have a vote at the convention.

But so far in the race, Mr Obama has secured more of both types of delegates.

Milestone

Speaking to her supporters at a rally in Kentucky, Mrs Clinton said: "It's not just Kentucky bluegrass that's music to my ears, it's the sound of your overwhelming vote of confidence, even in the face of some pretty tough odds."

She said she was "winning the popular vote" over Mr Obama.

And in a passage seemingly directed at the remaining undecided super-delegates, Mrs Clinton argued that she would be "best positioned to win in November" against Republican candidate Sen John McCain.

DEMOCRATIC DELEGATES Total delegates (pledged and super-delegates) needed for nomination: 2,026 Total pledged delegates at stake: 3,253 Total super-delegates at stake: 797 Total delegate tally for Barack Obama: 1,915 Pledged delegate tally for Mr Obama: 1,610.5 Total delegate tally for Hillary Clinton: 1,721 Pledged delegate tally for Mrs Clinton: 1,443 Source: Associated Press, as of 0900 BST on 20 May

With very few delegates still to be won, correspondents say it is highly unlikely Sen Clinton can catch Mr Obama.

Mrs Clinton insists the race is not yet over, but BBC correspondents say Mr Obama is keen to suggest the opposite.

Tuesday's primary votes are unlikely to push Mr Obama over the 2,026 overall delegates needed to win the party's nomination.

However, he is expected to secure a majority of the "pledged" delegates - those secured via primary votes - at stake.

This milestone could encourage those super-delegates wh

[un1 41]

Pure stress... It would be so hard for those two now...

[Easy Bakes 253]

So when is the Convention so Hilldog can start her 2012 campaign?

Thought this was Funny

[belfastuniguy 18]

To be honest I think the views of the pastor are important.

All the media coverage is one thing, but a lot of black Americans do feel left out and marginalised in society. A larger percentage of black Americans live in poverty than any other group and its hardly as it they have achieved full equality in all aspects of American life. The pastor could have been less inflammatory but his words do have a degree of meaning in America.

[Zelgadis 638]

I've attended several black church services in Kentucky with my friend. (Who is black... I'm not.) One thing I noticed as a general rule is that it doesn't necessarily matter as much as you think what the preacher there says. People continue to go there for the congregants and community.

On a side note, it's interesting to see the New York Times try to cram all of Kentucky's 120 counties into their demographic map.

Ah, and Ron Paul won Bath County on the Republican side. How on Earth did that happen???

Spoke too soon.  All the results weren't in for that county when I last checked. 

ISF

[belfastuniguy 18]

I've started to change my mind recently. I was always a Hillary supporter and I support her continuing in the primary race as she has every right.

I no longer think she will win, so I have to start looking at the alternatives and the more I look at Obama and McCain the more I stray to Obama. While not a supporter I think he and his administration will being the reforms that America needs. McCain just seems too much like Bush in many ways and that is NOT what America needs.

That's not to say that Obama has important flaws and inexperience, but I think he has the intelligence to create a strong administration with talents that will help him achieve several of his goals. I still remain a little concerned about his views toward Iran and his potential position as Commander in Chief.

hhhmmmmm all very interesting to watch now...I won't finally decide my view for another few weeks. I have a feeling that Clinton may not get the Presidency, but she may get another important position...not 100% on that one, just a feeling I have.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Oregon going for Obama is a given. He's expected to pull 10-15 points. 

Amusingly, a local Democrat candidate for Congress caused a minor uproar when he called Obama a "special interest fraud". You could hear the gasps of horror from the media. You'd have thought he had wished cancer on Ted Kennedy, the way people reacted. 

He didn't do it out of devotion to Hillary, either...he called her a coward, among other things.

Obama's chant about McCain being "4 more years of Bush" is among the more disingenuous things he's said. McCain has been one of Bush's biggest critics in the GOP from day 1...way before Obama got elected his first and only time. Which was what, like 3 years ago? McCain was a POW longer than Obama has held elected office. 

Obama's ads here crow about being 'against the war from the beginning'. If that's a qualification, most of Baghdad deserves to be president.

Not that I love McCain, but like always, it does appear that he's the lesser of two evils. It will have to do. Personally, I would prefer Ron Paul.

[Duke87 1,070]

Bob Barr is the Libertarian candidate for president. His running mate is Wayne Allyn Root.

The convention was on C-Span yesterday. Rather amusing to watch. The delegate chair from Connecticut apologized for George Bush, and the delegate chair from New York apologized for Hillary Clinton. My personal favorite comment, however, came from Utah's delegate chair. Paraphrased, it was along the lines of: "In Utah, the separation of church and state is two city blocks."

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

There's been a whole mess of stories about the race... so I, being myself, felt like pontificating about some of it.  

Hillary and the RFK remark was a somewhat amusing story for a minute. I think the odds are less than 50% that she will be offered the VP slot. All that remains to be seen is how big of an ass she makes of herself before she finally gives in. Obama may even go bipartisan for VP, which would make a great show. The last time that happened, the Pres was assassinated, and the veep was later impeached. Not surprising; his wife taught him to read as an adult, but could only do so while he was sober. (Lincoln/Johnson)

McCain has decided that he doesn't want to be president after all. His tactical plan seems sound, but his strategy isn't that of a winner. To disown the largest voting bloc in the GOP was a serious error that I doubt he will overcome. 

How so? Well....(and for the record, I do not listen to or watch Rev John Hagee at all. I am familiar with his teachings, and I have a few doctrinal differences with them. I do believe that he is genuine in his beliefs, though)  

Hagee's remarks about Hitler being used by God to rebuild Israel were not unBiblical at all, IMHO. In fact, there is quite a bit of Scripture in support of the general idea. It's not crazy, as McCain said it is, and a great many Christians now realize that he thinks their beliefs are exactly that. That was a real blunder that may have cost McCain the  election, ultimately.  

McCain should have already known what Hagee teaches, he should not have been surprised by it. A major portion of the Southern vote McCain needs, just decided they're going to stay home on election day. Yes, I've changed my mind...Obama will win in Nov (again, barring unforeseen circumstances.)

The other one, Rod Parsley, I am less concerned about. I don't trust him, from what I know of him. Like most Christians, I also believe that Islam is a false religion, and the two cannot be reconciled. But I am suspicious of Parsley's motives. He really seems like just another wacky televangelist. On some issues he is correct, but I would never put too much stock in his POV. He apparently is into some very non-Christian stuff, like 'slain in the spirit'. That's a bad sign for someone supposedly representing the faith to millions. Rejecting his endorsement is probably better than taking it.

Hank Hanegraaf is a good resource for researching the teachings of televangelists; it's also made him one of the most hated men in modern evangelism.

 

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Hey, it's been 4 days...

Obama apparently picks his friends as well as he does his 'spiritual advisors', according to this Time magazine article.

[link]

IMO it won't change anything; Clinton burned a US flag in Red Square, Moscow. He found a way to fool everyone get elected.

[screamingman12 30]

Originally posted by: manticorefan Hey, it's been 4 days...

Obama apparently picks his friends as well as he does his 'spiritual advisors', according to this Time magazine article.

[link]quote>

Uhh, yeah. I wonder who else would be on that list of "radical people" that now associate with them. Yeah, they screwed up, but they don't seem like the tipe that (now) wants to go blow up the capital or something like that.

IMO it won't change anything; Clinton burned a US flag in Red Square, Moscow. He found a way to fool everyone get elected.quote>

Can you provide a link to this? It should be good to read

[Voar Tok 4]

Well, as predicted, the Democratic party is starting to show signs of bitter fragmenting.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok Well, as predicted, the Democratic party is starting to show signs of bitter fragmenting.quote>

 

Have no fear.......

[Aontan 0]

Well Clinton won Puerto Rico, and the last primaries are today in South Dakota and Montana - but even if Obama won them both he'd still be short of the target by a few seats, and need a few superdelegates.

Likewise, Clinton needs practically all the remaining superdelegates to support her if she is to have a chance at the nomination...

News story here.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Aontan superdelegates.quote>

superdelegatesquote>

Ye, who will have a D-H or a D-O suffixed to their name next time they appear on television? And, who are so undecided that they must go with DOH!!! until the convent?

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

So, Hillary is so desperate to become President that she's willing to take VP slot despite having said earlier that she wouldn't take it?   Yeah, yeah, I know that's not the official reason, but I refuse to believe anything that woman says as being true.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20080602/scl080602.gif quote>

Driving north on I-80? How? I-80, like all even numbered 1 or 2 digit interstates in the lower 48 states, is an east-west route.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Obama 'to win' party nomination

Mr Obama will speak in St Paul, Minnesota once the polls are closed

US Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama will clinch his party's nomination once the final primaries are complete, US media report.

Voters in South Dakota and Montana are going to the polls in the party's final nominating contests.

Based on exit poll data and information from US media, Mr Obama will secure enough delegates to win the candidacy.

His rival Hillary Clinton has said she will not concede tonight, but is "open" to becoming Mr Obama's running mate.

Mrs Clinton made the comments in a conference call with other New York lawmakers, US media said.

Montana and South Dakota are completing the primaries, with Mr Obama only a few delegates short of the 2,118 needed ahead of the polls closing.

If he does as well as expected in Tuesday's contests - where 31 elected delegates are at stake - he will need to pick up only a handful of endorsements from the remaining uncommitted "super-delegates" - party officials with a free choice over who to support - to pass the winning post.

Polls are due to close at 1900 (0000 and 0100 GMT) across two time zones in South Dakota and at 2000 (0200 GMT) in Montana.

Former President Jimmy Carter has confirmed he is endorsing Mr Obama.

"The Obama people already know they have my vote when the polls close tonight," he told the Associated Press (AP) news agency.

Concession wrangle

In the conference call, Democratic Party Representative Nydia Velazquez said Mr Obama would win key voting blocs such as Hispanics if Mrs Clinton were on the ticket as vice-president.

Mrs Clinton replied: "I am open to it."

Earlier, AP reported that two senior campaign officials were saying the race was effectively over.

The officials suggested that in a speech in New York City Mrs Clinton would not formally end her campaign but would accept Mr Obama had enough delegates to win, the agency said.

This campaign carries on Terry McAuliffe Clinton campaign chair Fight to the end

Not formally conceding would give Mrs Clinton more leverage on her future role in the Democratic Party's battle against Senator John McCain in the November election, analysts said.

But, speaking on CNN, Clinton campaign chief Terry McAuliffe said the reports were "100%" incorrect.

"I can honestly say as chairman of this campaign that until someone has the numbers, this campaign carries on.

"The race goes on. We've got two important votes today and then tomorrow we've got to work the super-delegates and we believe we can persuade enough super-delegates to come over and support Senator Clinton."

Minnesota speech

Drama still lies ahead and will start in the moments after Tuesday's polls close, says BBC North America editor Justin Webb.

Bill Clinton addressed a crowd in Milbank on Monday

Mr Obama picked up several other endorsements from super-delegates on Monday, and the formal backing of South Carolina Representative Jim Clyburn, an influential African-American politician, on Tuesday.

Campaigning in South Dakota on Monday, Mrs Clinton said the end of voting would mark "the beginning of a new phase of the campaign" - one in which she would turn her attention to winning over super-delegates.

Mr Obama is due to speak in St Paul, Minnesota, where the Republicans will hold their convention in September and formally nominate Mr McCain as their candidate.

Mr Obama appears well aware he must heal divisions within the Democratic Party.

"The sooner we can bring the party together, the better, so we can focus on John McCain and taking back the White House," he said.quote>

Interesting set of events.

I do actually see Hillary taking the VP slot as I think it will allow her to focus on specifics areas if elected and to honest...Obama does need her. I know many hate her but she does carry the white working class, female and Hispanic vote and the Democrats need these to win in November. I think McCain should be starting to get worried about how the ticket may look.

I know party unity has been given as a reason and I do see that, I think it will help unite the party overall, with obviously some feeling annoyed by the decision. For a long time I thought the democrats were going to lose in November, but I think this joint ticket (if confirmed) will ensure they win.

McCain will be made to look old, out of touch and carrying the Bush legacy on into another 4 years, I think the republicans should be worried...

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

I do actually see Hillary taking the VP slot as I think it will allow her to focus on specifics areas if elected and to honest...Obama does need her.quote>

Hillary as a VP would be mostly powerless except for whatever strings she might be able to pull in the Democratic party in the Senate.

Also, Obama really doesn't need her (assuming he can get elected on his own).  What he needs is people who actually understand and have experience.  Despite all the talk about Obama not having experience, someone pointed out a very interesting fact.  Obama has managed to wrest the Presidency away from Hillary because he has better advisers than she does, and a better grasp on how to get things done from inside the political machine.  It's how he managed to turn states like Texas into a win despite the fact that Hillary got more votes - the Hillary camp didn't know what they were doing.

Also, Hillary has this nasty little problem of being completely unelectable, which probably won't help him any.

I know many hate her but she does carry the white working class, female and Hispanic vote and the Democrats need these to win in November.quote>

Hillary, last I heard, carries most of the Hispanic vote, better than half, but less than two-thirds of the female vote, and only a portion of the white working class vote (no one really knows how much).

I think McCain should be starting to get worried about how the ticket may look.

I know party unity has been given as a reason and I do see that, I think it will help unite the party overall, with obviously some feeling annoyed by the decision. For a long time I thought the democrats were going to lose in November, but I think this joint ticket (if confirmed) will ensure they win. quote>

Not a guarantee.  Remember, there's still a number of people who think Hillary is the mother-in-law of the devil, and wouldn't vote for anything she's connected with, even if it meant not voting for Obama.

Anyway, given Hillary's recent change in response to the political breeze (again), I think this fits her well.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20080602/scl080602.gif quote>

Driving north on I-80? How? I-80, like all even numbered 1 or 2 digit interstates in the lower 48 states, is an east-west route.quote>

 

I didnt write it. mabey there are parts of I-80 that go north.