American 2008 Election

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy I think people need to move away from the person the candidate is and actually focus on policy, as the economist article said, focus on the President not the phenomenon. quote>

The thing is, even if you have the absolute best policy in the world, you're not going to get elected if people have reasons for not liking you, and while I know that there are a lot of people who don't like Hillary just because, there's lots of people that don't like her policy either.  Separating the person from their personality for the sake of their policy is stupid.  That's what happened for Bush.

[wir3d 2]

Hillary and Obama are duking it out in the debate.

[confused04 14]

As much as we'd like to think human nature isn't a part of our policy making process, it is. There is such thing as political psychology and often analyzing how politicians think and interact will determine the course of events. As idealistic and rosey as it sounds to make our decisions based exclusively on policy matters, its not how things work. If a guy can't work with Congress, do they deserve to be President? If a leader is culturally insensitive or dimwitted, should they be president (we know the answer to that one for sure)? Separating character and policy completely is often an easy way to get an ineffective or down right dangerous politician into office.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

I think people need to move away from the person the candidate is and actually focus on policy, as the economist article said, focus on the President not the phenomenon. quote>

I can't argue with that.   But I doubt it will happen.quote>

Actually, you can. The policies of a candidate (in the US) is a result of their personality. Just look at John McCain and his "conservative" policies. Furthermore, while the president take many of the decisions, he usually choose them. They may of course be influenced by him, but more heavily of his cabinet/advisors, which he ultimately chooses because of his (the president's) personality. It's as easy as "can I like (to work with) this person"?

Ski; are the bureaucracy in the US similar to the European model ("Yes, Minister")?

Perception is more important than reality.quote>

Your perception is your reality. It's all you have.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: krbe

Ski; are the bureaucracy in the US similar to the European model ("Yes, Minister")? quote>

I'm not that familiar with European bureaucracy but it doesn't sound similar.

The example of "Yes, Mr. President" that comes to mind is a silly stunt that Bush 43 pulled years ago.   He wanted to impress a visiting dignitary and set off a surprise fireworks display for him.  in the middle of Washington, DC.  At midnight on a Tuesday.  without warning the rest of us.

The general reaction of the city was "This isn't your ranch in Texas.  There are millions of people here.   and you just woke up our children who are in their first week of school".   He seemed baffled that anyone would object.  Apparently there was no one on his staff willing to tell him this was a bad idea.  Then 9/11 happened a week later and no one cared.

The bureaucracy that I'm more familiar with, and have totally lost patience with, is the finger pointing.  It seems to me that many bureaucrats are more interested in making it look like the other guy's fault than they are in getting anything done.   Saying that the problem is the other guy's fault doesn't solve anything.  and a lot of bureaucracy seems to be aimed making sure that individuals can't get blamed for anything.  There is a problem when it's safer to do nothing than to make an honest effort at solving the problem.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Yes Minister is somewhat unique British way of government that also exists in some parts of Europe. I don't think America has anything like it, though I'm sure it may exist in a very small form. Though in general Yes Minister and later Yes Prime Minister is more inclined to the British way of things.

[Odainsaker 2,136]

The sad part for all our candidates is that much of their promises will go nowhere without a cooperating Congress and the firm ability to westle a tentacled-monster Hydra government of competing interests and timetables. The vast bureaucracy might be called our Fourth branch of government, whose experienced personnel and procedures are crafted by the civil service profession, whose organization and funding are set by the Congress, but whose top tier policy heads are appointed by the President. It's a complicated framework for confusion, as the directives come from the Executive, but the accountability is to the overseeing Legislature, and the actual real management is by long-term career civil servants. The bulk of the bureaucracy operates outside the direct control of the President, and while we might argue for streamlining into a command system, it has been the current president's attempts to bring the greater bureaucracy into narrow political "yes man" compliance that has fueled much controversy, as in our now broken and highly politicized Justice Department purges, the gagging of government scientists who deviate from current political doctrine, the good-ol'-boy ineptitude of putting "yes men" lackeys in charge of agencies like FEMA, the constitutional crisis of ordering departments not to cooperate with the Congress's oversight, and the top-down pre-war intelligence cherry-picking of our CIA.

Which just brings to mind this all-too-possible Cheney dialogue:

"The Democratic Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. We have just received word that the President has dissolved the Congress permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

"Impossible! How will the President maintain control without the Bureaucracy?"

"Regional Governors now have direct control of their territories. Fear will keep the local states in line...fear of this Battle Station!"

Watch out, you Rebel Scum!

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Yes, (Prime) Minister was being shown on PBS for a while a few years back. And it is on DVD. We got some of them from Netflix. I must admit, I really liked it, but I'm pretty sure that the average Joe American would have no appreciation for it since the humor is too high class and would go right over their brainless, non-thinking heads.

"Well, trains are impartial, but if you lay the tracks, that's where they'll go...."

Yeah.

[belfastuniguy 18]

I personally like the British paper reference.

Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?

Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.quote>

SO true.....love it....LOL

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy I personally like the British paper reference.

Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country; and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?

Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.quote>

SO true.....love it....LOL quote>

LMAO! Yes, Minister is probably one of the other British sitcoms i've skimmed over... next time I see it on UKTV Gold i'll be watching it. Shame we've got nothing like that these days to take the mick out of shoddy politics... apart from maybe Have I got news for you, but thats not a sitcom.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

So, back on-topic...(not that I don't like British comedy, I do)

The little exchange between Clinton and Obama at the debate dismayed me, and here's why...

1) The funniest thing, and likely the truest thing I've ever heard her say. Some speechwriter earned their pay. I am finally willing to give her props on the smallest, most insignificant thing; and she gets booed for it. 

2) A blemish on the Obama-nom? Regardless of whether he had permission or not, it was disingenuous, lazy, and cynical. And the crowd bought his response. 

And the NY Times story on McCain? Hmmmmm......

They endorsed him, I believe twice. And sat on this story for 5 years? And we all realize that 'unnamed sources' could be the schizoid drunk out back picking through the dumpster. No real proof of anything. 

My guess is that this another 'Rathergate', and some reporter will probably be leaving their job involuntarily very soon. Or getting a raise, depends on their boss's politics. Compared to the Shrike, McCain makes a Boy Scout look like a, well, politician.

definition of Shrike, it comes from a nickname my mom had for a female boss years ago who was similar in personality to HC.

[toxicpiano 125]

So how many people are betting that the democrat loser will become the candidate for vice president?

[Voar Tok 4]

What exactly do you mean by that? The Democrat that loses the nomination will become the other one's running mate?

[Micah 16]

So how many people are betting that the democrat loser will become the candidate for vice president? quote>

Well, if Clinton were to win, she'd pick Obama.

I'm not sure about Obama picking Clinton though. He doesn't have any other picks at this time, so it could be Clinton as his vice p. if he gets the nomination (which he will).

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

I believe Hillary wouldn't take it, it would be an affront to her ego. I could be wrong, we'll see.

Recent poll results show social conservatives are starting to fall in line behind McCain (as I predicted), and the Times story actually may have helped him. 

I know people believe that Obama will beat McCain. I just refresh the names 'Eugene McCarthy', 'George McGovern' and 'Michael Dukakis'. 

I'm not a Rush Limbaugh listener, but there is something I believe he was right about: All things being equal, Americans will pick a conservative over a liberal every time.

[Micah 16]

Ralph Nader is running. This will probably the time he gets the most votes ever... I'm not saying he will win, but this could be even more pivotal than in 2000 and 2004.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

I saw this too, how amusing! There's so much anger at him for helping shooting down Gore in 2000 that I think he's not even a blip this time. He's like Kucinich in his endearing way of being unaware of how out-of-touch he is. 

Corvairs still rock, and I still think one day poetic irony will find him when one runs him over.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Too be honest if I were voting I would vote McCain, Obama is just too liberal to be an American President, I'm personally a social centrist and economic conservative and while I would very like for American society to become a little more liberal its just not ready for it and I don't think Obama would gel well with the Senate.....and as such all the 'change' that he never really talks about just won't happen and the American public will feel depressed and disheartened and let down....but, that's what you get for not examining a potential President more closely.

But lets just see what happens in the summer and then November..

Just my view though.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy Too be honest if I were voting I would vote McCain, Obama is just too liberal to be an American President, I'm personally a social centrist and economic conservative and while I would very like for American society to become a little more liberal its just not ready for it and I don't think Obama would gel well with the Senate.....and as such all the 'change' that he never really talks about just won't happen and the American public will feel depressed and disheartened and let down....but, that's what you get for not examining a potential President more closely.

But lets just see what happens in the summer and then November..

Just my view though.quote>

I think the real issue with Obama will be bringing the Democrats together. Because the Democrats are comprised of such a broad range of views its rather difficult to get them on the same agenda. Which is why the chance of having a lame duck president even though his party is in control of Congress is probable.

Personally I don't like Obama or McCain. If it comes down to those two I'll probably just abstain.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Personally I don't like Obama or McCain. If it comes down to those two I'll probably just abstain.quote>

There are many times that I've wanted to vote for "None of the above".  but that doesn't accomplish anything.   The way I figure it, there may not be someone to vote for but there is always someone to vote against.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Well, folks...let the veil be lifted. These pics from Houston really offend me. Obama refused to pledge allegiance to the flag some time back, and then there's this. I am just appalled at these pics of an Obama campaign office. 

For those of you who don't know who Che Guevara really is, bone up on the term 'brutal torturer and murderer of political prisoners for Fidel Castro.' While some on the far left consider him a hero, the rest of us cannot miss the gallons of innocent blood on his hands.

[JanYpe 17]

Ya just can't get the staff these days.

[krbe 193]

Outsourcing, manticorefan, outsourcing. I bet Romney did this too, he seemed like the most liberal guy in the race, apart from his dependence on God.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Thats what happens when you make a martyr out of somebody. Besides... he's nothing more than a fashion icon these days...

[krbe 193]

But what about... this guy?? Seen him before?

Viva Sponheim!

[BurroDiablo 222]

He looks like an older, short haired version of myself... thats scary. At least I know i have the face of a Liberal... albeit a Norwegian one.

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: manticorefan Well, folks...let the veil be lifted. These pics from Houston really offend me. Obama refused to pledge allegiance to the flag some time back, quote>

Well, if it's true, good for him.  I always refused to pledge allegiance to a flag.  I mean...  a flag!  I can understand pledging allegiance to your country, a great leader, or something meaningful, but I always refused to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. 

Throughout my life, I've heard people say things like, "So-and-so died for that flag!"  Good lord, I sure hope not.  Sacrificing oneself for the sake of justice or the greater good would be worthwhile, but not a flag...

Flags are cute and all, but they are just that: flags.

Just the way I feel about it.

ISF

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Lars Sponheim, is it not?

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: zelgadis

Originally posted by: manticorefan Well, folks...let the veil be lifted. These pics from Houston really offend me. Obama refused to pledge allegiance to the flag some time back, quote>

Well, if it's true, good for him.  I always refused to pledge allegiance to a flag.  I mean...  a flag!  I can understand pledging allegiance to your country, a great leader, or something meaningful, but I always refused to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. 

Throughout my life, I've heard people say things like, "So-and-so died for that flag!"  Good lord, I sure hope not.  Sacrificing oneself for the sake of justice or the greater good would be worthwhile, but not a flag...

Flags are cute and all, but they are just that: flags.

Just the way I feel about it.

ISFquote>

Some of us look at them as pieces of cloth.  Some of us look at them as a symbol of what they believe.  Dying for your flag isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on how you look at them.