jimmy2040's BAT thread

[bixel 1,223]

omg you are making me go HVAC crazy!!!!! I think I am gonna model a huge Library of HVACs all because of you.

[SimFox 802]

Good stuff here!

One thing i would like to point out as to the unit system to use with Bat4max. Important thing is to keep in mind that units a separated in two groups by MAX - screen Units (these could be whatever you want them to be - metric, imperial/US, generic, etc) and System Units - these are of consequence! by default max is set to use Inches as system units, but for Bat4Max (in order to keep scale with LODs in GMAX) you have to set those to meters. It is also very much advisable to keep screen units anything but generic, for the realistic lighting sake, but I'm sure you are aware of it as you say you have been using Max/V-ray for a while...

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Thanks for the encouragement, bixel! I wasn't sure if anyone else found this information useful. Since you do, I'll post more.

SimFox: Thank you for the explanation. Now I think I see the big picture of how the BAT handles units.

Wallace Distribution Progress

For a work-in-progress thread, I haven't posted many images. But Wallace Distribution is in the middle of being textured. I'll post pics tonight or tomorrow (sans roof junk, which I like to save for last for some reason).

Unwrap UVW Tutorial Fixed

A while back, I wrote a tutorial on UVW Unwrap, a very useful modifier in 3ds Max/Gmax. It got partially deleted at some point, and all the images disappeared. I just discovered this, so I rewrote it from memory. It's now available, complete with images.

Air Handlers

Wallace Distribution needs about 850 tons of cooling, give or take. So, I'll be installing nine of these bad boys:

http://www.onsite-energy.com/rentals/AH100.html

Does anyone have an opinion on the realism of that? For an 850-ton application, would engineers likely install nine 100-ton air handlers? 100-ton is the largest I've found for sale online, and it seems to make sense that you would space out a bunch of small ones rather than have one large one (contrasting with cooling towers).

Also, would the water pipes for the chiller system be on the rooftop, or would they be hung from the ceiling on the inside? And under what circumstances is HVAC equipment installed on the roof versus on the ground nearby? I've seen a lot of both on real buildings.

Any HVAC engineers out there?

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Wallace Distribution is almost entirely textured. I still have to figure out the best way to handle the trim around the roof. Any suggestions? The solid dark gray just isn't cutting it. I'm thinking of using a tar paper texture.

Do you think I overdid it with the roof texture?

(click for full size)

I know I also need to dirty up the concrete docks and the metal roof in the upper-left corner. Roof junk will be forthcoming. Only a cooling tower is in so far.

[bixel 1,223]

roof texture looks good - also you can relaly play around with it if you use a Composite/Blend make some interesting results. BTW you will definitely should use the Cat-Mull Rom filter if you are using scanline - or the Lanzcos if you are using Mental Ray - it will make for a sharper image.

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Good catch, Bixel! I'd forgotten to change the default setting in Vray. It was on Area 1.5, which produced a blur. (I thought I was imagining it, so I didn't go back and check the render settings.) Vray has Catmull-Rom, so I switched it over to that. Both the edges and the textures look better now:

(Click for full-size image)

[art128 4,618]

this BAT look good my friend

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Using Bat4Max

If you can't figure it out, this may help.

I downloaded Bat4Max 2.5. It's great, but I couldn't find any documentation besides SimFox's post at the beginning of the Bat4Max 2.5 thread. I'm guessing there is a more comprehensive manual somewhere on the Web, but I couldn't find it.

So, for anyone else who needs to know the steps, here's what works for me. Your results may vary.

Changing the gMax path

In CPTB2MainUI.ms, I had to modify the function SFLODExporter. This line:

exportfile ("C:\\gmax\\gamepacks\\BAT\\" + getfilenamefile (maxfilename) + ".3DS") #noPrompt selectedonly:true

had to be changed to this, to reflect my directory structure:

exportfile ("C:\\Graphics\gmax\\gamepacks\\BAT\\" + getfilenamefile (maxfilename) + ".3DS") #noPrompt selectedonly:true

If your gmax is installed anywhere other than C:\gmax, you'll have to do this step. You only have to do it once.

Exporting LODs

SimFox describes how to do this, but you might not know when you're supposed to do it. Well, it's the first step in the export process. Refit your LODs, then export them . I believe you have to do this every time the model changes in size. They should be exported as a 3DS file to the path you set above.

Rendering in gMax

You thought you were done with gMax, now that you have 3ds Max. But no, you still have to use it. For reasons I don't know, you have to create your initial .SC4Model file with the gMax BAT. Bat4Max will subsequently insert your renders into that file.

In gMax, go to file>>import and select the 3DS LOD file you made in the last step. You must uncheck "convert units." I select "completely replace current scene," but I don't think this has any effect since you're starting from a blank scene anyway.

No need to refit the LODs. They're what you just imported. Save the scene and render it on draft quality. The renders will be totally black. You're done with gMax. You can close it now.

Getting the model name

Go back to 3ds Max. Now you need to tell it where the newly-created model file is. For some reason, when I tried to "Get Model Name," the BAT raised a MaxScript exception. I didn't bother to debug it. Instead, I just manually copied and pasted the model name into the text field below the button. Apparently, the text field is where the model name is actually stored. Just paste in the filename, NOT the full path, like this:

test-0x5ad0e817_0xd46c7df3_0x60000.SC4Model

and not like this:

C:\Documents and Settings\YourName\My Documents\SimCity 4\plugins\test-0x5ad0e817_0xd46c7df3_0x60000.SC4Model

Rendering in 3ds Max

Once you have the model name in the text field, click "Render BAT." Unlike in the gMax BAT, this will not yield a finished .SC4Model file. Instead, it will create a huge number of intermediate files in 3dsMax\gamepacks\BAT\OutputFiles.

Updating the .SC4Model file

Open the Batch CMD rollout under the BAT. Run FSH Batch Build. Then run DAT FSH Insert. For me, these steps were very straightforward.

I don't know exactly what these two steps do, but the end result is that the .SC4Model file will now contain your rendered building. (In other words, your model is now in there, whereas before, the file contained nothing but transparent boxes.)

Once again, these are just steps that worked for me. I can't promise that they're the correct way of doing things.

And now a question

I think I've figured out TruNite. It rocks! I'm going to write a tutorial about it. But trouble is, I have the dreaded "BAT night-lighting doesn't display in-game" problem. I've read Night Light for BATs on the Omnibus, and I followed the instructions. However, the 638 update says it didn't update simcity_1.dat, because the file contents didn't match. Ouch. I bet the crucial night lighting fix is in that file!

Oh, and my Windows CD drivers are dead, and I haven't been able to replace them. So a reinstall of SC4 seems impossible.

Does anyone have ideas? Is there something I haven't tried?

[OffshoreTacos 5]

More textures and roof junk added to Wallace Distribution. It's almost done now.

(click for full-size image)

Is anything missing? Does anyone have ideas for random junk to place around the perimeter of the building? (Because of its shape, there are probably some large areas where I won't be able to place props.)

Night lighting is next. I'll be using TruNite, hopefully. (I promise I'll get around to writing that tutorial. I just want to have one successful TruNite BAT under my belt first.)

[un1 41]

Nice BAT! Nothing to change for me not to use it.

"(Because of its shape, there are probably some large areas where I won't be able to place props.)"

If you make the BAT you are working on a prop then make a really little BAT as the main building. Props will work.

Props can go over props but not buildings.

-un1

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Thanks, un1. If I make it a prop, will the scaffolding still be the right size during construction?

I think the night-lighting is done, unless anyone has suggestions. I used TruNite. I think I reproduced Gmax's night-light colors and intensities rather faithfully.

(click for full-size image)

I've been thinking about getting rid of those strong shadows cast by the moon. Maxis has them in their buildings, but they seem unrealistic. So what do you think: should I go for realism, or should I just let make my building fit in?

In any case, this building is almost ready to be released. Also, I'm probably just going to release Stein Logistics as-is. It's not terribly impressive, but I don't think there are major problems with it.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

If you make a small dummy building and use the actual building as prop, then yes, the scaffolding will be tiny. However, whether you can place props next to the building or not is not determined by its actual shape, but by the shape of the LOD shell surrounding the building. Everything that clips into that LOD shell will be cut off by any visible part inside the LOD. Probably the best workaround is to draw the LOD shell closer around the building. You can easily make a shell that follows the footprint of the building, and then there will be no problem with props.

[jacqulina 162]

nice work there

[OffshoreTacos 5]

You can easily make a shell that follows the footprint of the building, and then there will be no problem with props.quote>

So LOD shells don't need to be rectangular prisms? That's new to me, and very encouraging. If I'm going to be making my own, rather than just hitting "refit LODs," I'll need to understand them a little better.

I understand what LODs are for and how the renderings get mapped onto them. But can anyone tell me why there are three?

[OffshoreTacos 5]

You can easily make a shell that follows the footprint of the building, and then there will be no problem with props.quote>

So LOD shells don't need to be rectangular prisms? That's new to me, and very encouraging. If I'm going to be making my own, rather than just hitting "refit LODs," I'll need to understand them a little better.

I understand what LODs are for and how the renderings get mapped onto them. But can anyone tell me why there are three?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

They're for the different zooms.  LOD5 is for zoom 5, and would be more detailed than LOD3.  LOD stands for level of detail, and in other games they're the different models that are used when you're different distances from the camera (like when you move away from a tree and it suddenly becomes a single plane with a texture applied to it).

Have you tried using a different lighting rig?  I know you're using Vray, but are you using the default rig with it?

[OffshoreTacos 5]

I use a custom rig for night, but I deliberately tuned it to match the Maxis stuff. I'm thinking about increasing the size of the "moon" light, thereby softening the shadows. The Maxis moon shadows are just too strong, in my opinion. But I haven't done it yet because I wanted to play it safe and make it match.

Although Wallace Distribution isn't the ideal showcase, raytracers like Vray and MR can do wonders for night lighting. I can't find the thread now, but someone was doing some beautiful neon using the Vray Light Material, which allows you to make light-emitting objects of any shape.

As for daytime, I use the default rig, but I add a couple twists. First, GI is turned on, meaning that the light bounces. This obviously brightens the picture, so I have to darken my textures to compensate.

Second, I use an invisible ground plane. It doesn't appear in the renderings, but it reflects light for GI purposes. This is the "real" raytracing that one can fake with Photoshop, as described on the Omnibus. The light reflected by the ground plane creates the brightness gradient on walls.

I've been mulling over further improvements to the lighting, but I haven't decided on anything yet. I'm pretty conservative about it, because I want my buildings to match.

LOD5 is for zoom 5, and would be more detailed than LOD3quote>

By that do you mean, the geometry of the LOD itself--i.e. the polygons as drawn by the game, which have the renderings projected onto them--might sometimes be more complex at the higher zoom levels? I realize that the higher zoom levels get a higher-resolution rendering projected onto them. But I didn't know that the LODs were ever anything other than rectangular prisms, or that their geometry could change depending on the zoom level. Is that what you mean?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

For deciding about whether or not a different rig would not match in the game, you can decide if my buildings stick out too much in the game. When I first started BATing with 3ds Max, I had originally wanted to use the same style of lighting, just at a higher quality, to blend in with the game, but eventually I found that that style of lighting is inherently low quality.

Yes, that's what I mean. Each zoom level and rotation is completely different and independent. Each uses a different set of pre-rendered images and a different 3D model. Theoretically, I could modd a .SC4Model file so that a completely different BAT showed up at every rotation and zoom. Most buildings will use a box for their LODs, but non-box buildings may use custom, non-box LODs which fit their building better, so that they can place props closer to the building. A LOD can be any object (extruded spline, edited polygon, etc.) as long as it has the correct name.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Yes, and -correct me if I'm wrong- if I'm not mistaken, LODs with higher poly counts cause more strain on the system resoureces in game, but if the shape is not overly complex and you gain something important in return, it's well worth those few extra polygons.

Another thing I hope to remember correctly is that for zooms 1 and 2, the game will switch to a box LOD by default, and you can't do anything about it. This is what makes, for example, Marrast's seawalls look a bit odd when zoomed far out. I guess the game does so for performance reasons - the farther out the camera, the more objects need to be displayed. Hence, many props are invisible at farther zooms, and the LODs get converted to boxes for a minimal polygon count.

What else is there to know? There was an issue with LOD volume and rendering... I think the bigger the LOD volume, the more memory the render needs, something like that. In this particular case, however, this shouldn't be a problem.

Hey, yet another random knowledge bit about LODs: Ever wondered why the mouse cursor highlights some pointed buildings even when it's far over or beside the pointed tip (antenna, spire or similar)? That happens when the narrow, pointed upper end of the buidling sits inside a wide box LOD (that has probably been scaled to the wide base of the building) or when the LOD box is much taller than the actual structure inside.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Yes! All of those are true except for the rendering/volume relationship. The rendering is actually related to the size of the bitmap files it renders. So if the building requires an image to be rendered that is 256x512 pixels, it will be more than a smaller building that would only need 256x256 pixels. Of course, there is a relationship between the volume of the LOD and the dimensions of the bitmap.

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Thanks T Wrecks and Jasoncw!

Jason, in autoVino's BAT thread, you said:

You might need to get fancy modding done if it's going to be a growable over 6x6.quote>

Why is that? Stein Logistics is on a 6x7 lot, and I didn't do anything unusual modding-wise, but it works properly. Do you know what might make something require fancy modding?

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Well, the Lot Editor doesn't allow for growables beyond a footprint of 6x6 tiles. Try to enter any number, it will revert to 6.

There is a workaround, however.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Really awesome man! I would try to extend a hand to get you straightened out with modding, but I'm new at this too. I just make the models XD

Speaking of which, your HVACs are really spectacular, in case that hasn't been mentioned enough. I still have trouble with my roof junk, but you seem to have it down!

Can't wait to see this one in game, and love how into this whole gig you are getting,

-Todd

[OffshoreTacos 5]

Well, the Lot Editor doesn't allow for growables beyond a footprint of 6x6 tiles. Try to enter any number, it will revert to 6.quote>

Oh, ok. I did encounter that rather strange problem making Stein Logistics. I went into iLive and set the lot size manually (in every place I could find the size, which was several). That took care of it. I hope that's all I needed to do. It works ingame as far as I can tell.

Thanks for the compliments, Todd! Your work is great. I'm going to try and learn a thing or two from your textures. And although you say you have trouble with your roof junk, I think yours looks better than mine.

[madhatter106 3,903]

Great roof detail and texture. I love how you calculated how many roofjunks you needed, based on the cubic footage of the building. That's dedication!

[bixel 1,223]

yeh LODs with really high poly count can be really bad. Its best to have LODs of 12 faces or less. My only building with extremely high LOD count is Dynasty Court - and that was used to enable the use of props on the building itself - but I will never do that again. Another example of bad LOD design was my Park Central, I made it too complex and it required the exporter to create many more faces of where the building image will be drawn. A simplistic LOD box will actually make the model size smaller for the game (SC4Model - not the 3D one).

[OffshoreTacos 5]

A side project:

Once I make a final decision on my custom light rigs, I'll render Wallace Distribution, lot it, and put it up on the STEX.

[art128 4,618]

that look good !

[OffshoreTacos 5]

[Image no longer hosted]

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Oooo, thats cool. What a wonderful glow coming off of those neon lights, really makes that render look spectacular. I might have to ask that the reflection on that vent be turned down a bit, looks REALLY shiny. Then again, you might not even be able to see it in a SC4 render.

Either way, really cool, And, glad I could be of some inspiration too,

-Todd