The Christianity v. Atheism Thread

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

I have decided to create this thread out of frustration of the lack of this topic here.

Please, do not write this off as another creation v. evolution thread.  This thread is an "anything goes" thread.  Meaning, anything regarding the debate between Christianity and Atheism can be discussed here, not just origin theories.  This DOES NOT mean, however, that you can say anything you wish about the other side.  This is a place for CIVIL debate on philosophy, doctrine, science, and whatever else pertains to the subject matter.

Please, when you post, keep this in mind:

1.) You, no matter how hard you try, will not change the other side's mind.  This thread is a think tank of sorts, for the sharing of ideas, and not attempts at conversion, and is for entertainment purposes only.

2.) Any vulgar or obscene language will not be tolerated. Any flaming will be reported to a moderator promptly.

3.) Stick to the general current events rules.

4.)  This thread will likely go for a long time, depending on how civil the discussion remains. Please do not flood the thread with comments like "can this thread die already?".  If you don't like the topic of conversation, don't post here.

5.) Have fun!  Like I said, we are here because we enjoy discussing more refined topics such as philosophy and religion, rather than sports scores and the latest Britney Spears scandals.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

And now for some questions to start us off:

I have attended Christian schools for six years, and am now an Atheist.  The reason that I have reached this decision is because I have had a very difficult time answering some of these problems that I have with the Philosophy behind Christianity.

My first, and most prevalent question in my mind is:

If Christians believe that God is perfect, and everything He does is perfect, then why has He created a universe destined for failure?

If God is love (As quoted in the Gospels), then why did He create Satan, knowing that he would soon become the epitome of evil, and corrupt His creation with unimaginable horror?

If God knew that Abraham would have killed his son for him, then why did he ask him to do it in the first place?

If Satan knows that God knows everything, then why did God feel it necessary to put Job through so much misery and discontentment?  Afterall, God could just tell Satan "I am the LORD, and I know everything.  Job wouldn't ever denounce my name.", right?

Just some thoughts for you guys to chew on...

[hamsterTK 93]

I am going to take bets on how long it lasts...

Anyways, to each his own, thats my opinion. Personally, I'm nonreligious but whatever gives someone intellectual fulfillment, thats fine.

Not that I won't defend my viewpoints or let some fundamentalist harrass me...or steal my darwin fish again....

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Gozer_Jep 0]

good threat!

most religious questions are very difficult/impossible to answer, because it is about believe. Still, i can give an answer to the last 2 questions: because God wanted to let us/them know that story, to learn from it, and to get better from it.

[KingTitan 6]

This subject is NOT a current event...it has been debated for eons.....a discussion thread would be more appropriate.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Barbarrossa:

I understand your point completely.  It's just that a majority of people here either fall in the Christian camp, or the Atheist camp.  There are other religions here, but I think that these are the two world views that everyone is most educated and well-versed (no pun intended) in.  This is not to single out the Christian religion in any sense, but it seems that this is what gets most-discussed here at ST.

KingTitan: I apologize if this thread is in the wrong section.  It just seemed more appropriate to me to place this in the current events section b/c the Christianity/Atheist debate is sort of a hot-button topic today.

Gozer_jep: Ok, I believe that I can come to terms with those answers.  That makes more sense than some of the answers I got at school from teachers!   But the first few questions are the ones that are giving me quite a bit of trouble.  I'm sorry, but I can't just accept "I don't know" as an answer for an explanation of the unknown.

[coolotter88 2]

you don't have to be atheist to believe in evolution. Creationism certainly isn't a very Christian theory.

[KingTitan 6]

It's all about FAITH....whether you are may be right or wrong....you won't know till that time.....and nobody will EVER know the finality of your soul............PERIOD.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: coolotter88 you don't have to be atheist to believe in evolution. Creationism certainly isn't a very Christian theory.quote>

And, where did you get this, exactly?  I would say, considering the fact that:

A.) The entire religion of Christianity is based upon sole belief of the Bible

and

B.) The Bible states clearly the foundations of creationism,

that it's safe to say that creationism is a Christian theory.

Please, coolotter, don't come in here and troll...

[Boggy1 45]

We really already have a thread for this...the House of Worship. But even then, your "vs." in the topic title seems to want to provoke arguments. It suggests you expect one side or the other to win. Also; as Barb said, there are many many other religions followed by people on ST. It would be unfair to single them out.

[patriots_1228 51]

i really just see this as you trying to piss us christian's off...

the point is, its about belief. the way i see it, i could go through my whole life being christian and beleiving in god, and then die and find out i was wrong. However, there would be nothing bad about that. I would have lived a good life and whatever comes after (if anything) would be peaceful. However, If i choose to not beleive, theres a chance that i die and then im burning in hell. I like beleiving better thank you.

[KingTitan 6]

I don't see anyone trying to single out anyone....i just see an expression of one's belief......things like this....discussions like this, are just another avenue we as HUMANS (most importantly) try to understand each other....wheather this is the wrong thread or not....it is a FRESH thread, with old ideas with a twist of lime...LOL just kiddin on the lime....

Teddy...you are obviously an athiest.....I empathize.....cus I am a Christian Athiest.....wanna know more??? PM me.

I can start my own religion too.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: KingTitan It's all about FAITH....whether you are may be right or wrong....you won't know till that time.....and nobody will EVER know the finality of your soul............PERIOD.quote>

But I don't think that people, in this day and age, believe even the things that Christianity has set forth as its basic truths.  There are many contradictions that can be plainly seen in the Bible, most of which are completely unexplainable.  I am not prepared to throw my hands up and say "Oh well" with these contradictions right in front of my face, it just doesn't make very much sense.  I have seen enough of it, really, and the more issues I see that come about, similar to the ones mentioned above, the more and more I see Christians throw their hands up, whip out the good 'ol Deut. 29:29, and give up on trying to explain it.  The fact is, it's just not convincing enough to society today to claim to explain the ideas of creation, the universe, and the existence of God, with these paradoxes in place.  You can't answer the unknown with the unknown, and that is essentially what I believe that Christianity is attempting to do.

Example:

"How did we get here?"

"Well, a perfect, infinite, loving, all-knowing God created our universe."

"If He is perfect, infinite, loving, and all-knowing, then why aren't we perfect?  Afterall, we have enough suffering and evil in this world, therefore we are far from perfect, and so is this universe we live in."

"You'll just have to have faith on this one, as we may never know.   God doesn't reveal everything to us. Deut. 29:29"

"Well, a perfect God doesn't create an imperfect world.  It just doesn't happen."

"Have faith."

These answers of "Have faith in God" are not logical, reasonable responses to these questions.  This is a direct contradiction to the doctrine that God has revealed to us, not something that isn't revealed.

The fact is, perfect entities do not create imperfection, nor do they have the capability to.  It just doesn't make sense that, on the one hand, the Bible says that God is perfect in every way, and on the other, it says that His creation became flawed.  There has to be something wrong here.  God is responsible for His creation and everything that happens in it.  If He is indeed perfect, then we should all be living in perfect harmony, loving one another, in total and complete peace, yada, yada, yada.  But that is simply not the case.  We are in a quite imperfect world, according to Christian standards, and these things just do not add up.

[belfastuniguy 18]

To be honest I don't care what people believe in, they could believe God is made of cheese and I just would not care. Religion and spiritual belief is something personal and private.

I do believe in God and would see myself as a Liberal Catholic, I do not believe in creation.

EDIT - I do not believe in creation as is currently taught, I believe that God was there in the very very very beginning and from then the universe grew and evolved over time. I cannot fully explain that, but that is what I believe.

Some may argue that I am picking and choosing what I believe in, I see nothing wrong with that religious texts were written by man and as such are not 100% the word or God or gods depending on your belief. But that's my view, others have different views and that I respect and as such will not criticise them for that.

I don't understand all these debates, people need to accept that others will not always share their views and those that see themselves as very religious should also accept that people will disagree with them and they have to accept that also. No one religion or theory is right and no-one will know until they die. That's just how I feel on this.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Guys, like I said, if you don't care to discuss the topic, then don't post. Please stop giving me all kinds of crap for making this thread. I did this solely because I enjoy debating these kinds of issues. I like to keep an open mind, and so should you. If you think that I did this to troll the boards, then leave, ignore the thread, and don't post here. However, it would seem obvious by this point that I am certainly not trying to attack the Christian religion, but entice some productive, intelligent discussion, rather than the rantings and ravings on other threads that have been going on for several weeks now. I am just trying to organize discussions such as these into one thread, since the creation v. evolution (which also has a "v." in it, without intending to resolve the issue) does not necessarily address all of the issues encompassing these types of debates, but merely the origins aspect.

If you think I'm trolling, DON'T POST HERE.

But trust me, if I were trolling, I would have come out the gate with "OMFG Christianity sucks yada yada yada.", and I certainly wouldn't have set up any thread rules, nor asked any questions.

[JackStraw 19]

The fact that you chose Christianity vs. Atheism, instead of religion vs. atheism, says alot about you. Ummm, how many other major religions are there? The Jewish faith, Islam, Hinuism and Buddism.... All of the adherants of these religions are also not atheists... I would bet that you see Islam, Buddhism and Hinuism, as enlightened, although you dont subscribe to their doctrines. Since Christianity came out of the Jewish faith, you probably just choose to leave it alone since it is PC to do so.

[Godzillaman 21]

Oh boy...not another one of these threads...too many... This will probably end up with atheists beating down the creationist.

No one will know. Like a few others have said in this you can never know till you are dead.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Read above, my friend... If it will make you people happy, I will change the name of the thread... I didn't realize a mere title would cause this much flame... Back to the topic, if we could, please...

[EDIT] This was directed at CrazyFinger, not Godzillaman

Also, how many discussions have you seen on ST debating Islam and Atheism?  None, if not, very few.  Like I said above (please read the entire thread before posting) most of the people here on ST are either Atheist or Christian, I have found, and this is why I named it such.  I haven't met even ONE person involved in a religion other than these two here on ST, yet, and I've been a member since Jan '06.

[KingTitan 6]

Teddy......a lot of people think like u do.....I guarantee you that. But, saying things like "Guys, like I said, if you don't care to discuss the topic, then don't post", is very counter productive.....I sense you have some serious religious issues......where you raised catholic? I see your passion.... but we also need to be sensative to other beliefs. We know what we know....doesn't make it right....doesn't make it wrong.....but ultmately will make us compassionate and empathetic.

[coolotter88 2]

+why thank you for calling me a troll while you said you wanted your thread to remain alive+

minus minus minus for flamebaiting mister.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: KingTitan Teddy......a lot of people think like u do.....I guarantee you that. But, saying things like "Guys, like I said, if you don't care to discuss the topic, then don't post", is very counter productive.....I sense you have some serious religious issues......where you raised catholic? I see your passion.... but we also need to be sensative to other beliefs. We know what we know....doesn't make it right....doesn't make it wrong.....but ultmately will make us compassionate and empathetic.quote>

No, I wasn't raised Catholic, I was raised Protestant Christian (Baptist, to be precise).  Nothing against Catholics, btw.

I think I was being sensitive enough in my initial posts, at least I thought so.  I didn't attack the Christian religion, I raised some questions which I thought would make for some interesting discussion.  It's not like I was saying "OMFG Christianity sucks there is no god, big bang big bang evolution evolution yada yada yada."  Having been a part of the CHristian community for quite some time, I completely have respect for anyone who associates themselves with this religion, and intend no offense to them.

It's just common sense though.  If you don't like the topic at hand, don't flood the thread with comments like "close the thread!", "can this thread die already?", "you're trolling", etc. etc.  Its just a common courtesy to those of us who would like to actually debate here, rather than attack the name of the thread.

[JackStraw 19]

Debate? Your intentionally trying to start a war.... I want to start a thread,ok Islam vs the World, Oh wait Blacks vs. Whites... Thats a better one... You might as well have just titled your thread " I hate Christians, You got a problem with that?

[wolverine 12]

By stating "versus" in the thread title you are baiting the thread to instigate some sort of argument or competition. Why even debate the two? It boggles my mind that there are people in this world who can't mind their own business and respect other peoples views.

What do you intend to debate next? Race?

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TOPIC, DON'T POST HERE! HOW HARD IS IT TO GRASP SUCH A SIMPLE CONCEPT?! I AM NOT TRYING TO ATTACK ANYONE'S RELIGION, RACE, SEXUAL PREFERENCE, OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT!I AM ATTEMPTING TO HAVE A CIVIL DISCUSSION! ENOUGH WITH THE TROLLING!

[autoVino 26]

CrazyFinger huh?  this isn't a war at all... and that is not the purpose of this thread.

I personally am not religious, but many athiest ideas seem a bit out of wack.  Evolution makes some sense, in that bacteria can change amd have the ability for drug resistance; but I don't see people coming out of a fish, and I hope that just isn't my ignorance of change over time.  To me it just doesn't work that way.  I also don't like to deny the fact that there is a god (or is not a god) I generally like to float on the issue.  There may be a god because having a giant "accident" that made people, life, and the universe is just too improbable.  It must have been planned in some way or fasion.  It may be, remember that this is just a speculation, that people actively persuing their lives against religion and god could be the fault of our past and what the church has done, attempting to hide what ever truth there was in order to keep an idea prevelnt or for self benifit.  (don't get mad at me if I mispelled a lot of words, my english isn't perfect and I'm still trying to learn :-p)

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Boggy1 45]

Psycho_Teddy: Your attitude is not at all civil. This entire thread reeks of un-civilness.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa I, the Almighty-Divine-Don't-You-Wish-You-Could-Be-Me-Self-Appointed-Ruler-Of-The-Universe, hereby absolve Coolotter88 of all aspects of Filthy Trollism. Just believe in me, and you will be free.

Seriously, though, Coolotter88 isn't trolling. He is keeping the dream alive!

My only comment to any of the posts so far is that... when you are dead, you won't know anything. Why? Because you are dead. Death kind of does that to you. Makes everything stop, including consciousness.

Barbarossaquote>

Well-said... And that ladies and gentlemen, is the only thing we can know for sure.  But up until then, you should weigh out the evidences in front of you and make a good assumption as to what you think will happen.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

I have been taking a lot of Greek and Roman history classes this quarter, and have found an interesting fact that may be worth debating...

Many of the Greek and Roman Gods were known to be, in fact quite imperfect, and often were found in Greek literature arguing with one another about which decision is right. Although these religions have since been decreed ludicrous, by society, I think that we may be able to borrow this concept from Greek religion and insert it into ours today. What if there were a religion that indeed has accepted the fact that their God(s) is/are not perfect? Wouldn't this help explain so much? Sin nature, temptation, suffering and evil, could all be explained if a religion would just accept the fact that their deities are not perfect. Just an idea...