Stop the Clash of Civilizations

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Micah 16]

Although it was offensive, I think he may mean the Western European countries *the more powerful ones*

[JanYpe 17]

Of course there are unimportant countries in certain aspects. It depends on the context. Luxembourg and Iceland for example have never exactly played a big role in the grand scheme of things. Anyone offended by a simple distinction like that needs to sack up and grow some thicker skin.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[coolotter88 2]

it is!

no no no, jk jk, they have Philips! (I even spelled it right)

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: Micah

N_O_Body is right; it is essentially all down to greed.quote>

Not true. There is a deeper substance. Say that you remove all currency in the world, all possessions, etc. and yet there is still conflict. Why? It's called human nature. Not greed.

quote>

I was talking in a contemporary sence,  but I understand what your saying.

Wars are always over something though, remove all currency in the world, all possessions, etc and all you have left essentially is Land, Religion and mediocre differences to fight about... hate is simply something that makes us human and its also something that can't be quenched... by traditional means at least. We just need to learn to control our prejudices... wich has never been easy.

[ShortStraw 1]

There is a certain innate aspect of human nature that leads to violent conflict but the "human nature" level of fighting and killing and such is usually manifested on a small scale.

  An individual or a small group of people may become violent over religious differences or get caught up in a cycle of vengeance fighting but when it comes down to large scale massive warfare style killing the motivation is almost always greed in the end.

   It's almost a cliche' anymore to pin the blame on religious or cultural differences or whatever but those are generally just excuses used by the rich and/or powerful to further their own greedy ends through violent means.  Pick any "grand" war, find out who stands to profit the most from it and you have figured out who is responsible for perpetuating it. 

There are exceptions of course but ultimately it seems that greed is responsible for much more violence than plain old human nature.  I would even go so far as to say that greed is practically impossible to control while the human instinct for violence is comparatively easy to reign in.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. Greed is almost a re-pressive infantile gene that makes us yearn for more than we already have, I believe it could be controlled but you would need to teach children from an early age that being greedy is not acceptable. I guess most parents do do that anyway... but as they get older and possessions are easier to obtain as they make their own money, it`s hard to resist buying that forth car or twelvth house... the more a person has, the better they think they are. Greedy people are always perceived to be better than everyone else... sometimes I long for the day when your social standing is not determined by how much you own, but by what you do.

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw There is a certain innate aspect of human nature that leads to violent conflict but the "human nature" level of fighting and killing and such is usually manifested on a small scale.

  An individual or a small group of people may become violent over religious differences or get caught up in a cycle of vengeance fighting but when it comes down to large scale massive warfare style killing the motivation is almost always greed in the end.

   It's almost a cliche' anymore to pin the blame on religious or cultural differences or whatever but those are generally just excuses used by the rich and/or powerful to further their own greedy ends through violent means.  Pick any "grand" war, find out who stands to profit the most from it and you have figured out who is responsible for perpetuating it. 

There are exceptions of course but ultimately it seems that greed is responsible for much more violence than plain old human nature.  I would even go so far as to say that greed is practically impossible to control while the human instinct for violence is comparatively easy to reign in.quote>

Do you really think Mohammed Atta chose to crash the plane into the WTC out of greed? And that Osama chose to abandon Saudi Arabia where he would have lived like a king, without needing anything, out of greed? What about all those suicide bombers that blow themselves up and take a large number of people with them?

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: Micah Although it was offensive, I think he may mean the Western European countries *the more powerful ones*quote>

It wasn't offensive at all, but you get my point. To say that Liechtenstein is just as important as France or Germany in global matters would be a bit ridiculous. Probably the current USA president doesn't even know where Liechtenstein is located!

[Wyqtor 14]

Many of you seem to believe that the violence brought by Islamic fundamentalists is due to human nature. While that might be partially correct, the fact is that I don't hear news about Buddhists or Christians blowing themselves up and taking innocent lives in the process. I don't believe terrorists are different people from any of us. They are just indoctrinated with all of this hate towards those "that don't follow the TRUE path", and refuse to use their brains because they fear that by questioning the commands of Allah they might end up in Hell.

The USA, while a country with a lot of greedy corporations (see war for oil in Iraq for more info), doesn't go about enslaving people and killing all of those that oppose it. The proof is that there are still a lot of people burning US & Israeli flags in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan.

Take a look at how Saudi Arabia treats women (per Islamic Law) and how women are treated in America. I would say that America does care about its citizens, even though the people running it behind the scenes are some of the greediest on the planet.

Here are some quotes from the holy Qur'an, the holy book of 2 billion people, which prove my points:

1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6
2. Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10
3. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
4. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
5. "Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
6. If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
7. Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
8. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
9. For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114
10. "And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119
11. Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126
12. The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
13. Allah is severe punishment! 2:165-6
14. They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167
15. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
16. How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175
17. "Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244
18. Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178
19. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

quote>

You can clearly see how "tolerant" it is. And this is only a fraction of verses that incite to violence and brutality.

[coolotter88 2]

double post

[BurroDiablo 222]

...

Some Islamic sects tend to believe that if they martyr themselves in a fight against the infidels, then they'll go to heaven where they will be treated like kings... I'd call that a greedy vision...

I think its the main reason Suicide is a sin in the Bible is because their rightyfully should be no way of escaping your problems on Earth untill your time has come... to simply kill yourself is the ultimate act of greed, and I dunno if you've noticed, but greed is also a sin... so is loaning at Interest.

[ShortStraw 1]

Do you really think Mohammed Atta chose to crash the plane into the WTC out of greed? And that Osama chose to abandon Saudi Arabia where he would have lived like a king, without needing anything, out of greed? What about all those suicide bombers that blow themselves up and take a large number of people with them?

quote>

I wouldn't neccesarily say that the typical Jihadist soldier is acting out of greed.  I also do not believe that the average american soldier on the ground in Iraq is acting out of a personal sense of greed.  Or the typical IRA fighter.  Or the average grunt level tribal warrior in the Sudan or any of the individual soldiers who are killing holy men in Myanmar right now.

My point is that all of these soldiers are fighting in wars right now that are being perpetuated by leaders who actually are motivated by greed and stand to gain from their respective  wars.  The demonization of the Islamic faith is another case of greedy political leaders furthering their own ends. 

If the Islamic faith is such a doom and gloom religion focused on the assured destruction of all non islamic faiths then how come this has only come to light in the last 50 years?  What about the couple of thousand years or so when Muslim peoples led the world in the fields of science and medicine as well as religious tolerance?  When Christianity was being used as a tool of oppression in the middle ages, Islam was the shining voice of reason.   Where were all those Jihadists then?

The current breed of frighteningly violent Islamic fundamentalists are a by-product of the long term mishandling of middle eastern nations and peoples by greedy leaders of not only their own nations but also the western nations that could not control their avarice for oil.

I'm not saying everyone who fights is motivated by greed.  I'm saying that the political leaders who perpetuate war are motivated by greed.

Edited for civility.  

[gabry85 2]

Originally posted by: Wyqtor The USA, while a country with a lot of greedy corporations (see war for oil in Iraq for more info), doesn't go about enslaving people and killing all of those that oppose it. The proof is that there are still a lot of people burning US & Israeli flags in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan.

Take a look at how Saudi Arabia treats women (per Islamic Law) and how women are treated in America. I would say that America does care about its citizens, even though the people running it behind the scenes are some of the greediest on the planet.quote>

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you here. Just some examples: think about the coup d'etat in Chile where Pinochet, supported by Pres. Nixon, murdered Salvador Allende. What about the chemical bombing on Fallujah, Iraq (the day after the re-election of Bush!)? What about the health care in the US which excludes 1/3 of the citizens or the easy-to-buy firearms which kill 2,000 of Americans every year?

And the list goes on and on.

IMHO, I do believe in America, as much as the Founding Fathers. Every powerful country in history always made wars, it ain't just the USA.

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

I wouldn't neccesarily say that the typical Jihadist soldier is acting out of greed.  I also do not believe that the average american soldier on the ground in Iraq is acting out of a personal sense of greed.  Or the typical IRA fighter.  Or the average grunt level tribal warrior in the Sudan or any of the individual soldiers who are killing holy men in Myanmar right now.

My point is that all of these soldiers are fighting in wars right now that are being perpetuated by leaders who actually are motivated by greed and stand to gain from their respective  wars.  The demonization of the Islamic faith is another case of greedy political leaders furthering their own ends. 

quote>

There are good things in Islam and the Qur'an, but they are buried underneath a big pile of verses full of hatred. If it wasn't for this hatred present in the people's main belief, there would certainly have been less violence. And when it comes to faith and personal emotions, simple people usually give priority to those instead of logical thought.

 The main problem with Islam is that it's so inflexible - it claims to be the perfect religion, all others are false ones and are to be extinguished through jihad. I wouldn't say Islam is being demonized at the moment and we should remember how European nations and America treated Hitler and Nazism with tolerance, thus allowing the regime to build up an army and start the 2nd World War. What if terrorists get their hands on the Atomic Bomb? I'm sure then we would all wish we had done more to prevent this from happening, at any cost!

If the Islamic faith is such a doom and gloom religion focused on the assured destruction of all non islamic faiths then how come this has only come to light in the last 50 years?  What about the couple of thousand years or so when Muslim peoples led the world in the fields of science and medicine as well as religious tolerance?  When Christianity was being used as a tool of oppression in the middle ages, Islam was the shining voice of reason.   Where were all those Jihadists then?

quote>

It has come to light only recently because now we have mass-media and the Internet, and they have OUR weapons! The so-called Golden Age of Islam happened not BECAUSE of Islam, but IN SPITE of it - because of enlightened leaders that didn't buy into the religious dogma. The downfall of this era of peace and enlightenment began when clerics had more power and decided that astronomy and science in general shouldn't be pursued anymore, as the Qur'an "holds everything people should know", so the rest is only heresy.

Also, even during this Golden Age, some Muslims still waged their Jihad and assimilated those of other backgrounds and religions, I'm sure not always with kind words. They conquered northern Africa and their Caliphate reached as far as Toledo in Spain. Those lands were inhabited by christians before they arrived. If they were so tolerant as you claim, then why are there hardly any Christians in northern Africa? This process of assimilation is happening now in Lebanon, through intimidation and terrorism of Christians. The Crusades of the Middle Ages were simply the reaction to these conquests.

There is a big difference between Christianity and Islam. Even though twisted in the Middle Ages, Jesus' teachings of reason and compassion are at the very core of the religion. Let's compare: Islam suggests the following punishment for adultery: stoning to death (sadly still practiced in Iran and Saudi Arabia). Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone". You have to agree he was an enlightened person for his age, no matter if you believe he was the son of God or not.

Christianity might have its quirks too, but the good teachings definitely outweigh the bad ones.

The current breed of frighteningly violent Islamic fundamentalists are a by-product of the long term mishandling of middle eastern nations and peoples by greedy leaders of not only their own nations but also the western nations that could not control their avarice for oil.

quote>

Without our weapons and money, the terrorists couldn't have done anything against us, that's for sure!

I'm not saying everyone who fights is motivated by greed.  I'm saying that the political leaders who perpetuate war are motivated by greed.

quote>

I also believe that the leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia are motivated by greed. But I don't believe Osama bin Laden is motivated by greed. He is motivated by his faith. He was the member of an influent and rich Saudi family. He gave away a life of comfort and stability in exchange for one where he is a fugitive.

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: gabry85

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you here. Just some examples: think about the coup d'etat in Chile where Pinochet, supported by Pres. Nixon, murdered Salvador Allende. What about the chemical bombing on Fallujah, Iraq (the day after the re-election of Bush!)? What about the health care in the US which excludes 1/3 of the citizens or the easy-to-buy firearms which kill 2,000 of Americans every year?

And the list goes on and on.

IMHO, I do believe in America, as much as the Founding Fathers. Every powerful country in history always made wars, it ain't just the USA.quote>

These are the reasons many Europeans also don't like the USA. The problem is the US administration only cares about its own interests and its citizens (well, mostly), and not those of other countries - I'm sure Serbians would agree. Your examples with health-care and firearms do show the nasty side of corporate greed, but the main fact is that Americans aren't degraded as human beings by their government. In Iran, a simple thing as an interaction with a stranger of the opposite sex is punishable! Humans are social creatures, and they take that right from teenagers just because the religious precepts say so!

[Micah 16]

Let's please not turn this thread into an Islamic bashing thread, please.

Edit:

The problem is the US administration only cares about its own interests and its citizens (well, mostly), and not those of other countries - I'm sure Serbians would agree.quote>

Damned if we do. Damned if we don't. People hate it when America polices the world, and then they hate it when we do nothing. Go figure.

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: Micah Let's please not turn this thread into an Islamic bashing thread, please.

Edit:

The problem is the US administration only cares about its own interests and its citizens (well, mostly), and not those of other countries - I'm sure Serbians would agree.quote>

Damned if we do. Damned if we don't. People hate it when America polices the world, and then they hate it when we do nothing. Go figure.

quote>

The main problem is, the US always seems to do the wrong thing all the time. I'm sure it would be a good idea to send some troops into Burma right now and help the brave monks who put their lives on the line for freedom and democracy. They did send troops in Iraq, right? Of course, Burma doesn't have much oil, does it?

This thread IS titled The clash of civilizations, I am merely pointing out one of the reasons as to why this clash exists. I promise I will not bash Islam as long as Islam doesn't bash me and my people in its Holy Book. I say it's only fair. How can you not feel at the very least offended by the verses I presented before? This religion clearly needs a reform, otherwise it will spawn a lot more terrorists in the future. Think about your safety and the safety of your family. Remember, all it takes for evil to manifest itself is that good people close their eyes and do nothing.

But OK, I said what I had to say on this thread, you are the moderator and I won't continue this discussion here. I understand it really is a controversial subject at the moment here in the western world and people don't like to talk about that, as we are taught to respect all other religions. But my point is we should also ask for that respect in return.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Acctually... Burma has quite alot of untapped oil off its shoreline... I don't think the US wants to upset China though... occupation of Burma would make them a little jumpy.

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: Wyqtor

The main problem is, the US always seems to do the wrong thing all the time.quote>

Most Americans want to help out the world. We gave billions to Indonesia not because he had to, but because we wanted to bless them after the tsunami and we felt great pity for those innocent people, even if they were Muslim! The citizens alone gave more than most foreign governments combined. After the earthquake in Pakistan, we sent troops and aid to the thousands that lost their homes not because we had to, but because we want to win hearts and minds. America doesn't want to become the world's enemy. America - at least the citizens- simply wants to help out. Vietnam didn't have oil or any resources that we needed. We simply wanted Vietnam to enjoy the same freedoms that we as Americans enjoy. It's not that the US does what is wrong... it's that nobody will stand up against what's wrong and it falls on our hands whenever something goes wrong. If the Iraqis stood up united against the foreign forces that may or may not have been there in the beginning *that's not my point*, then we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are now.

Vietnam may have not been lost if the people of Vietnam stood up stronger against the forces of the oppressive communists that murdered millions throughout that region.

This thread IS titled The clash of civilizations, I am merely pointing out one of the reasons as to why this clash exists. I promise I will not bash Islam as long as Islam doesn't bash me and my people in its Holy Book. I say it's only fair.quote>

 

You can't justify doing something wrong by what others have done. It's not about getting revenge... it's about following the rules that are against the bashing of religions of any kind.

But OK, I said what I had to say on this thread, you are the moderator and I won't continue this discussion here.quote>

No, please keep discussing.  As long as the conversation is civil, everything is okay. I wasn't talking specifically to you when I gave that warning. It was sincerely a general warning in case it did erupt into something further. 

But my point is we should also ask for that respect in return.quote>

A completely valid point.

[ShortStraw 1]

Originally posted by: Wyqtor

There are good things in Islam and the Qur'an, but they are buried underneath a big pile of verses full of hatred. If it wasn't for this hatred present in the people's main belief, there would certainly have been less violence. And when it comes to faith and personal emotions, simple people usually give priority to those instead of logical thought.quote>

I still can't help but think that the Islamic religion is enduring a smear campaign just lately.  I admit, I haven't read the Qur'an from cover to cover.  Even if I had, I don't understand the Arabic language so I wouldn't be able to make up my own mind about just exactly what the intent of each passage taken in context is really all about.

I have studied Islam as a comparative religion and in a historical context however and much of what I hear today regarding Islamic teachings and doctrine just seems suspiciously skewed towards the "dark and spooky" stuff.  I won't try to argue that there is nothing negative or irrational written in the Qur'an any more than I would attempt to argue that the Bibles'  Old Testament is all sunshine and butterflies.   But the simple fact is, most of the worlds 2 Billion Muslims (not my number, I can't attest to its accuracy) are not Stoning women to death for the crime of Adultery...Just as most of the worlds Christians and Jews are not executing women for Adultery even though the Old Testament clearly calls for it in these passages...

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (22:22)

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." (20:10)

(I promise not to quote any more "Dark and spooky" bits from any of the worlds Holy books )

There is a big difference between Christianity and Islam. Even though twisted in the Middle Ages, Jesus' teachings of reason and compassion are at the very core of the religion. Let's compare: Islam suggests the following punishment for adultery: stoning to death (sadly still practiced in Iran and Saudi Arabia). Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone". You have to agree he was an enlightened person for his age, no matter if you believe he was the son of God or not.

Christianity might have its quirks too, but the good teachings definitely outweigh the bad ones.quote>

Christianity and Islam and Judaism share common roots as well as common strengths and vulnerabilities.  One of the most damaging vulnerabilities is the more or less open interpretations of their various tenets and dogma.  Just as Jesus' teachings are sometimes twisted to evil purposes, so are Muhammads.  I do agree that Jesus was "an enlightened person for his age"...and so was Muhammad.  I won't bore you with numerous quotes of his wise and peaceful teachings but they're easy enough to find with an internet search if you want to explore that side of things.  Ultimately, Islams Good teachings also outweigh the bad ones.

 

The so-called Golden Age of Islam happened not BECAUSE of Islam, but IN SPITE of it - because of enlightened leaders that didn't buy into the religious dogma. The downfall of this era of peace and enlightenment began when clerics had more power and decided that astronomy and science in general shouldn't be pursued anymore...quote>

 Religious leaders generally do buy into their own religious dogma.  They're famous for it actually. The "Golden Age of Islam" lasted for around 500 years. I agree that it ended when the religions leaders gained too much political power. This reinforces my point that Greed is more to blame than human nature for the corruption of a fine religion and the resulting bloodshed.

I also believe that the leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia are motivated by greed. But I don't believe Osama bin Laden is motivated by greed. He is motivated by his faith. He was the member of an influent and rich Saudi family. He gave away a life of comfort and stability in exchange for one where he is a fugitive.quote>

I don't know what motivates Osama Bin Laden nor do I much care really.  His story is unfinished as yet and I don't know enough about him to know what his motivations might be.  He is only mildly relevant to my argument as he is more of a foot soldier than a world leader.  Maybe he isn't motivated by greed.  I noted before that there are exceptions to the "greed outweighs human instinct" theory, maybe he is one.  I just don't know.

But yes, It would appear that Iran and Saudi Arabias leaders are motivated by Greed.  The same can be said for Americas leading proponents of the war in Iraq.  This also reinforces my belief that greed, more than human nature and more than religion,  is the final motivator for all the horrible things that are happening over there right now.  Whoever wins in the Middle East stands to gain a lot of power and money.

My point in responding to all of this is just this, Look closely at what people are saying about Islam these days.  There's a lot of propaganda out there designed to inspire fear and loathing in westerners as regards the Muslim people and middle eastern Muslims in particular.

(disclaimer) I personally am not a Christian, Muslim or Jew.  I know many fine people of all 3 of those religions though and I hate to see religion used as an excuse to further greedy, warmongering ends.  In the final equation I believe religion does more good than harm in the world and I'd like it if it stayed that way.

Also, Micah, your Velociraptor avatar frightens me.

 

[gabry85 2]

Originally posted by: Micah

Most Americans want to help out the world. We gave billions to Indonesia not because he had to, but because we wanted to bless them after the tsunami and we felt great pity for those innocent people, even if they were Muslim! The citizens alone gave more than most foreign governments combined. After the earthquake in Pakistan, we sent troops and aid to the thousands that lost their homes not because we had to, but because we want to win hearts and minds. America doesn't want to become the world's enemy. America - at least the citizens- simply wants to help out. quote>

And that's one of the strongest reasons which makes me trust in the Americans!

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

(disclaimer) I personally am not a Christian, Muslim or Jew.  I know many fine people of all 3 of those religions though and I hate to see religion used as an excuse to further greedy, warmongering ends.  In the final equation I believe religion does more good than harm in the world and I'd like it if it stayed that way.quote>

Yes, religions have to be handled with care...

[Wyqtor 14]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

I still can't help but think that the Islamic religion is enduring a smear campaign just lately.  I admit, I haven't read the Qur'an from cover to cover.  Even if I had, I don't understand the Arabic language so I wouldn't be able to make up my own mind about just exactly what the intent of each passage taken in context is really all about.

I have studied Islam as a comparative religion and in a historical context however and much of what I hear today regarding Islamic teachings and doctrine just seems suspiciously skewed towards the "dark and spooky" stuff.  I won't try to argue that there is nothing negative or irrational written in the Qur'an any more than I would attempt to argue that the Bibles'  Old Testament is all sunshine and butterflies.   But the simple fact is, most of the worlds 2 Billion Muslims (not my number, I can't attest to its accuracy) are not Stoning women to death for the crime of Adultery...Just as most of the worlds Christians and Jews are not executing women for Adultery even though the Old Testament clearly calls for it in these passages...

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (22:22)

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." (20:10)

(I promise not to quote any more "Dark and spooky" bits from any of the worlds Holy books )

There is a big difference between Christianity and Islam. Even though twisted in the Middle Ages, Jesus' teachings of reason and compassion are at the very core of the religion. Let's compare: Islam suggests the following punishment for adultery: stoning to death (sadly still practiced in Iran and Saudi Arabia). Jesus said: "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone". You have to agree he was an enlightened person for his age, no matter if you believe he was the son of God or not.

Christianity might have its quirks too, but the good teachings definitely outweigh the bad ones.quote>

Christianity and Islam and Judaism share common roots as well as common strengths and vulnerabilities.  One of the most damaging vulnerabilities is the more or less open interpretations of their various tenets and dogma.  Just as Jesus' teachings are sometimes twisted to evil purposes, so are Muhammads.  I do agree that Jesus was "an enlightened person for his age"...and so was Muhammad.  I won't bore you with numerous quotes of his wise and peaceful teachings but they're easy enough to find with an internet search if you want to explore that side of things.  Ultimately, Islams Good teachings also outweigh the bad ones.

 

The so-called Golden Age of Islam happened not BECAUSE of Islam, but IN SPITE of it - because of enlightened leaders that didn't buy into the religious dogma. The downfall of this era of peace and enlightenment began when clerics had more power and decided that astronomy and science in general shouldn't be pursued anymore...quote>

 Religious leaders generally do buy into their own religious dogma.  They're famous for it actually. The "Golden Age of Islam" lasted for around 500 years. I agree that it ended when the religions leaders gained too much political power. This reinforces my point that Greed is more to blame than human nature for the corruption of a fine religion and the resulting bloodshed.

I also believe that the leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia are motivated by greed. But I don't believe Osama bin Laden is motivated by greed. He is motivated by his faith. He was the member of an influent and rich Saudi family. He gave away a life of comfort and stability in exchange for one where he is a fugitive.quote>

I don't know what motivates Osama Bin Laden nor do I much care really.  His story is unfinished as yet and I don't know enough about him to know what his motivations might be.  He is only mildly relevant to my argument as he is more of a foot soldier than a world leader.  Maybe he isn't motivated by greed.  I noted before that there are exceptions to the "greed outweighs human instinct" theory, maybe he is one.  I just don't know.

But yes, It would appear that Iran and Saudi Arabias leaders are motivated by Greed.  The same can be said for Americas leading proponents of the war in Iraq.  This also reinforces my belief that greed, more than human nature and more than religion,  is the final motivator for all the horrible things that are happening over there right now.  Whoever wins in the Middle East stands to gain a lot of power and money.

My point in responding to all of this is just this, Look closely at what people are saying about Islam these days.  There's a lot of propaganda out there designed to inspire fear and loathing in westerners as regards the Muslim people and middle eastern Muslims in particular.

(disclaimer) I personally am not a Christian, Muslim or Jew.  I know many fine people of all 3 of those religions though and I hate to see religion used as an excuse to further greedy, warmongering ends.  In the final equation I believe religion does more good than harm in the world and I'd like it if it stayed that way.

Also, Micah, your Velociraptor avatar frightens me.

quote>

Very interesting points! The Old Testament can indeed get very spooky at times too. But the main reason why today people focus on Islam is because the terrorists shout "Allahu Akbar" when they blow themselves up - they are all muslim. And the world sees that the great majority of moderate muslims tacitly support them by not doing anything to prevent the remaining good teachings in the Qur'an from being hijacked. Also, in polls, when asked if they want to replace the US Constitution with Sharia, most would agree - just like the leaders of muslim countries agreed not to sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Instead, they drafted their own Declaration of Islamic Human Rights - which is a mockery of the original declaration as many fundamental rights are omitted or skewed.

Personally I believe that all religions that present their teachings as dogma, instead of showing consideration for the scientific approach, should either reform themselves or be wiped out from the face of the Earth (with PEACEFUL means, like persuasion and logic) as they don't bring inner peace to people, but death and suffering instead - or at least injustice and degrading of disabled people as is the case with Bush vetoing stem cell research.

Judaism somehow managed to reform itself, I am still not sure how, but thanks for bringing it up as its an interesting comparison. The Christian world did indeed experience the Renaissance, but I don't remember anything specific about Judaism... It would be interesting to know the proportion of these "spooky" verses in both religions, Islam and Judaism, to see if this affected things somehow, but I guess we would need an expert for that! And it might not necessarily draw an accurate conclusion.

If muslims worldwide manage to reform Islam - with or without our help - I say THEN we will have won "The War on Terror". Until then, no matter how moderate or good a muslim might be, if he/she suffers a tragedy in life, like injustice, a major trauma, depression, etc, then that person risks falling to the "dark side" and follow the spooky verses instead of the good ones. Especially if influenced by other practitioners of the "dark side of Islam". But even normal, happy people can be persuaded by a twisted, intelligent collective mind, to do or accept horrible things - for example, nearly all of the Germans that lived in Germany when it was ruled by Nazis, as they didn't protest against all of the injustices that unfolded right before their eyes.

I can conclude that a big problem with this Clash of Civilizations is that many people act like sheep and refuse to keep an open mind, but instead follow blindly the commands of others without question.

And yes, that Velociraptor is also very spooky.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

Originally posted by: Wyqtor

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die." (22:22)

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." (20:10)

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I would point out that, as Christ said, "I have come not to change The Law, but to fulfill it.". Doctrinally speaking, this meant that there was no longer a need for these penalties, nor for the sacrifice in the Temple, or for keeping Kosher, being circumcised, etc.  Additionally, The Law didn't apply to Gentiles anyways (unless they converted to Judaism). The crucifixion satisfied the price exacted by The Old Testament.

[Wyqtor 14]

Unfortunately, many muslims still believe that such barbaric practices are still necessary, even in the 21st century. Here is something to think about, an article from the site I mentioned in previous posts:

By: George R Boyden

In January of this year, Yussif, a 5 year old Iraqi boy was doused with gasoline by masked terrorists in Baghdad, Iraq, and set ablaze. Why it was done doesn't seem to have been yet determined. One can only think that maybe he was from a Sunni family and this was done by Shia, or he was from a Shia family and this was done by Sunnis. Anyway, for some reason the boy's family does not want the family name mentioned because of possible reprisals.

Yussif's parents spent months attempting to find help from someone in Iraq, the boy was Moslem living in a Moslem country and received no help from anyone. An American soldier, burst into tears when he saw the boy. Finally, CNN television aired the little boy's plight. The response was immediate.

The Sherman Oaks, California, "Childrens Burn Foundation" (CBF) founded by Dr. Richard Grossman (Jewish) volunteered to bring Yussif to California to help his recovery, which will take months of multiple surgeries for physical reconstruction and psychological and emotional treatment. Religion was never even considered by anyone, he was a little innocent human, a victim of hate. Barbara Friedman (Jew), executive director of CBF was overwhelmed by the response to her request for assistance to pay to have Yussif's family to be brought to the USA. The request ranged from $5.00 to $45,000.00 in donations (Christians and Jews). Again no questions about religion.

Surgery which has begun by Dr. Peter Grossman (Jew) and Dr. Sanjay Singh (Sikh or Hindu), will go on for months. Because of this long period of recovery, Yussif's parents and little sister were brought to California and are being kept here free until they return to Iraq. On arrival in Chicago and then on to California, Yussif's mother asked "It is so green here, am I in Heaven?" (No you are not, you are in the great Satan land declared so by the Islamic clergy) The parents were speechless when they finally arrived in California. The father said "pinch me, I must be in a dream." They found it difficult to believe that American was such a wonderful place with wonderful (secular-humanists) people. Maybe they thought they would see nothing but prostitutes and drug addicts. Let us hope Yussif gets well and when his family returns to Iraq, they will have something good to report about America.

Now, the purpose of this accounting of little Yussif. One, it illustrates that American and Americans are NOT what you seem to believe in the Middle East. We are really humans, secular in our government, generous, and kind. You in the Middle East often say "we LOVE American people, but we HATE the American government" You don't understand one thing, the Americans elect the government, we don't have dictators, the REPRESENTATIVE government speaks for the people. This may be difficult for you in the Middle East to understand as you have never had this freedom.

My question to Islam. Can you really believer that the Jews, Christians, and Sikhs involved with this boy Yussif, will all go to the Moslem hell? I would like a Islamic scholar to explain Islam thinking on this event. I do not want a confrontation about Islam, I really want to understand your logic and way of thinking. Are Americans wrong to do what we did? I, and I am sure all humanists would like a discussion about this. One thought is this "why didn't Moslems take care of Yussif?" Where was the generous royal family of Saudi Arabia?

You must understand, we in the West scrutinize Islam by how you perform, react, and think, this is a good case for you to do some explaining. Let us hear from you!.

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Unless the moderate Muslims take a stand and come into the spotlight,  people will continue to demonize Islam as a whole because it doesn't bring anything good. If and when moderates make their voices heard, that will change.

[coolotter88 2]

there are also other interesting passages about sex with animals whereas the animals are put to death as well.

[simultan 0]

Well, humans can spend their lives talking over subjects, and on how to remedy war and injustice. But the simplest answer is the most we can do is try to keep these things to a minimum.

Sometimes what is best for humanity is not the best for a people. Some may suffer so the rest may live.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

This little "clash" thing is only natural, it happens in animals too. They don't always get along and agree with every little thing. Since it is only "natural" I just think we should just deal with it rather than debate over every little thing.

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

Originally posted by: Micah

Most Americans want to help out the world. We gave billions to Indonesia not because he had to, but because we wanted to bless them after the tsunami and we felt great pity for those innocent people, even if they were Muslim! The citizens alone gave more than most foreign governments combined. After the earthquake in Pakistan, we sent troops and aid to the thousands that lost their homes not because we had to, but because we want to win hearts and minds. America doesn't want to become the world's enemy. America - at least the citizens- simply wants to help out. Vietnam didn't have oil or any resources that we needed. We simply wanted Vietnam to enjoy the same freedoms that we as Americans enjoy. It's not that the US does what is wrong... it's that nobody will stand up against what's wrong and it falls on our hands whenever something goes wrong. If the Iraqis stood up united against the foreign forces that may or may not have been there in the beginning *that's not my point*, then we wouldn't be in as much of a mess as we are now.

Vietnam may have not been lost if the people of Vietnam stood up stronger against the forces of the oppressive communists that murdered millions throughout that region.

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THANK YOU! finally, someone has said EXACTLY what i've been wanting to say for a very long time!