SimFox's non-Asian BATs

[Chris M 406]

Looking good, looking good, SimFox. But, please make the reflection more subtle. It will not translate well to the game.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

The reflections are strong, but as a point of personal preference, I like it better. I only download realistic versions whenever I can. Although the bump maping is pretty pronounced... 'Glass filter' on photoshop on one giant plane, and what's the level of the buymp mapping set at? Or just many versions of bump maps on many window planes? The first is obviously less processor intensive... I just want to know out of curiousity.

[Moshi 61]

The building is turning out fantastic, as always.

I could have photographed the building myself, had I known about your recreation sooner. Alas, the next time I will be visiting Tokyo will be in July.

On a side note, if you have any buildings you would like photographs on that are in Osaka, I will gladly snap some pictures of it, for I will go there on the 14th.

Keep up the great work!

[SimFox 802]

OK, folks, here are my attempts of making the lot/plaza:

South	East
North	West

Thoughts? Suggestions?

there are few minor changes:

Top terrace colonnade. Only now I've found good shots of the building (btw it's called Chiyoda Tower and, apparently, it houses Japanese offices of Johnson's+Johnson's) and saw the original design that now is re-created. All the tension cables at the roof help holding it in place. Now when I realized that columns don't actually connect to the outer rim of it it makes perfect sense.

As for the color of the glass...

I've made conscious decision to use technique different than my normal one, that uses transparent glass + blinds (geometry). The reason is that, although possibly applicable here, that technique has it's limitations - there are glass facades that are clearly not see through. For outside observer that is. So this is my attempt to make such a facade, trying to balance physical properties with appearances and suitability.

MG:

I'm not sure I understood what that scale mean? There are two values related to bump that could be referred as scale of bump. But it has to be understood, that the effect becomes the more pronounced the farther is the reflected object(image) from the reflecting surface. If you look at the objects near the glass (elements of the lot) their reflections are hardly distorted at all...

Crackdtoothgrin:

I'm not sure what sort of pointers I could give you... As I see your modeling, it looks quite impressive. And there isn't really anything special in this case. I mean it is all basic geometry. One thing I think I can call my style is that I always make everything absolutely precise. I mean everything is strictly snapped in it's proper place and is in some precise proportion to other elements. I never really eye-ball it. I also virtually never build anything out of collection of primitives. I mean I do start with box or sphere, but almost immediately convert it to editable polygon and move its sub-objects and never really accumulated large modifier stacks...

When you speak of glass filter in Photoshop I assume you mean creating a bitmap to apply to the glass surface? Sort of faking reflection, right? It is certainly one way to do it. Of course, in that case it is important to solve the issue with shadow/sun. Glass can not behave in a same way like non-reflective (less reflective) materials around it. If it does it will not look like glass. Also the distortions are suppose to be distance dependent. Of course it is possible to fake this in Photoshop too. But what is not possible is to fake (convincingly) the reflections of object in immediate vicinity of the reflecting surface. So, all-in-all, this technique has more drawbacks than advantages, imo. So, I don't use it, at least not for large glass surface like that. I prefer to let Max calculate those for me :-) Especially given the fact that it has virtually perfect tools for it. Namely Noise for bump channel. It perfectly recreates imperfections of the glass, although the degree of it could be debated. It also solves the problem of "background" and immediate reflections and their relative distortions. Being parametric it means it is very easy to adjust to liking too. I generally use basic black and white noise of appropriate size (say 2-5 meters on average) and go for something between 0.02-0.05 (0.02 in this case). It is also good idea to check the option Do not apply bumps to the defuse shading.

Important point, however, is to make sure that distortions are limited to the individual plane of glass and do not flow seamlessly across the facade. This is easily achieved by making 2 glass materials identical in every way except the phase of the noise and apply them to the glass polygons in checker pattern. It effectively sets each individual window apart (overall glass can still be single object). Actually this is another of my "ways" - I try to keep number of objects to absolute possible minimum. It's just far easier to manage scene like that.

Other rotations

Well it is certainly technically possible. Yet the whole point of this turn was to offset alignments and open those mini-plazas. If I turn it to 17.5 degree (if that is a angle of FAR) it will effectively defeat the very purpose of turning. Though that doesn't mean that some other design of the surrounding space could not be though through...

SGT Pepper, DragonAnime

Glass texture looks weird because it is not a texture... It is a reflection. As for the blending... this is of course always a matter of personal opinion and judgment. I think it would blend fine.

When blending is considered one must have a clear criteria. Otherwise we're not talking about blending, but simple copying. There is nothing wrong with that. But then there is an issue of is there something to copy, it is worth it? Do "originals" themselves blend into environment?

If we take a look at Maxis default glass buildings we can clearly see that there isn't single style. It ranges from more or less absurd colored objects to some resemblance of the reflection. Those aren't really reflections but, I suspect self-illuminated (modestly) textures.  At any rate those examples don't really blend particularly well between themselves, I mean if one assumes some degree of material predictability. Some other Maxis buildings (typically non total glass facade ones) have pretty convincing imitation of the reflections - FAR better and more realistic than glass ones. Yet this is made possible largely by the very virtue of "glass" not covering large virtually uninterrupted (particularly at the shadow side) surface.

I believe I'm trying to blend my buildings with those - better examples. Plus I do realize that in a way I don something new... And while at it, i a way, create the standard - now quite a few people start using same technique and one can build pretty convincing glass CBD out of available BATs. Yet, of course it is not perfect. But please point me to something that blends better in your opinion, I'm always open...

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Well, yes the glass isn't a texture, but you could do something to make it translate better in the game...

Well I don't think I will ever completely be impressed with anything in MAX because of how it looks with everything in the game. But your models are fantastic. It could blend in better, not saything it has to look exactly like other buildings, but it can still stand out, but look good with the game.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

Yeah, I don't use the noise when I make bump maps, as I, still new to Max, never really thought about it. I use a bitmap for the glass, which is probably more processor-intensive now that I think about it... However, the model that I'm making I'm trying some new things out, so we'll see about that...

And you made that lattice with sub-object manipulation? It almost seems like it would be easier to use use extruded splines, but you've probably been doing this long-enough that it comes as second-nature to you. The problem I run into when doing that comes to the texturing. I set the faces and apply their material ID's, but when I actually make the sub-object/maulti-material and apply it, things get wonky. I always have every aspect set to an explicit material ID and check to make sure there are no name conflicts, and that the UVW map applied is on the map channel relevant to the selection. I follow this order (and please correct me if I'm messing up).:

*Select faces, "Set Material ID"

*Deselect everything.

*Repeat first+second step with different faces, until all are assigned.

*Check to make sure each series of faces has proper ID's set. They are almost always correct.

*Apply a 'Mesh Select" modifier, and select the material ID I'm looking for.

*Apply a UVW map to the selection and fit it. (Sometimes also an Unwrap if the shape is complex and I need to print a template for CS4)

*Repeat mesh selection until every MatID has a UVW map, properly adjusted to teh correct map channel

*Create multi material and set the number of materials, and the ID's/names/etc.

*Apply to the model.

At this point, it seems like something is wrong, because the little 'viewport cube' on the upper right loses it's texture and random artifiacts and glitches start flowing throughout the workspace, and sometimes I get an error message on render that states I need to apply a UVW map, when, as I'm perusing through the oftentimes quite large modifier stack, I can see that there are, in fact, UVW maps for each channel. Is the modifier stack too large? I don't know. I'd send you the files but I already took another approach and have nothing from before the crash to show for it.

Anyways, back to the building. I actually think I like it the way it is. Are those shaded sections on the plaza floor eventually going to be stairs of some sort?

[Jasoncw 11,933]

I think the plaza is looking good so far. But with BATed ground I always worry about how shadows from other buildings will be (or rather, won't be) cast on them. The plaza could be made as a prop, set up so that shadows can be cast on it, but then the shadows cast by your building wouldn't be rendered into it in max, and I suspect you don't want to sacrifice that.

For the glass, I think the reflections are fine, but maybe the blue is too strong?

In the ground textures that I use, I overlay the maxis glass texture on top of it, so that some of those colors make it into the reflection (or at least that's what I hope, lol). Lately I've wanted to do a really glassy building (I've never really done any), so maybe I'll start one.

And while at it, i a way, create the standardquote>

This is definitely true!

[Ke|is 3,337]

Amazing building Sim fox

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Well I thought of some better examples(in my opinion) of blending in the glass better in the game. Unfortunately, I don't have photos, just a list of buildings either custom made or an original Maxis building-

Palmas Corp by tcxalapa

Columbia Seafirst Center(or Tower) by Maxis

Cahalane Communications by Maxis

van Prooijen Trading by Maxis

Market Tower by scotty222

Hewlett Packard Tower by scotty 222

Alexandria Tower by me(when my username was simcity4fan12, I'm not sure if you remember it, I took it off the STEX but I haven't put it back up yet...)

NDEX ITS City Tower Manchester by ill tonkso

There's more I could list....I could go on if I wasn't so lazy...

Also I just noticed something odd in the North side render...that windowless part sticking out, something seems wrong with the texture. The line looking pattern on it(I doubt it's a reflection...) is making a diagonal move up and down that part...is that supposed to be a relfection? It looks kinda strange...

[BoxCarRacer 1]

I am new, so perhaps my opinion doesn't have as much experience or credibility behind it (especially considering I've only downloaded one building off the STEX lol!) but I think if SimFox is capable of creating these buildings with really professional and realistic glasses, than he should make buildings to the best of his ability, and not lower his standards so as to blend in better with the game.

That is just my opinion, and again, I don't know much yet about how the whole BAT scene on this site works. Umm...I'll just go back to lurking now

[Sgt Pepper 864]

@BoxCarRacer- Don't think your opinion doesn't have as much experience or credibility to back it up, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Yes SimFox cand create buildings with reflections like that if he wants to, and it's not really lowering standards for anyone trying to blend it better with the game. Oh, and there's no real professional anything when it comes to BATing and SimCity.

Anything made in MAX, IMO, would look better in an advanced version of SimCity, rather than the current one that doesn't have the best graphics to the standards of most MAX made creations. I hope you, SimFox(or anyone else that uses MAX for that matter), are not thinking I'm downgrading anything you or anyone else makes in MAX. It just looks "too good" for this current version of SimCity.

[Cockatoo 2,257]

Well I don't think I will ever completely be impressed with anything in MAX because of how it looks with everything in the game.quote>

Well I thought of some better examples(in my opinion) of blending in the glass better in the game.

Palmas Corp by tcxalapa

Columbia Seafirst Center(or Tower) by Maxis

Cahalane Communications by Maxis

van Prooijen Trading by Maxis

Market Tower by scotty222

Hewlett Packard Tower by scotty 222

NDEX ITS City Tower Manchester by ill tonksoquote>

Just going to call you on this. Both Scotty and Tonks work almost exclusively with Max and all of the examples you listed from them were infact done in Max. I can also guarantee you that Maxis didn't do their work with Gmax either, more likely than not, the in-game buildings were done with an older version of Max.

Gmax generates sub-standard renders that, when compared to the in-game buildings, don't match up. The recent improvements made to BAT4Max (ironically enough, the improvements made by SimFox) now make it possible for us to generate renders that match the in-game environment more than ever before - far better than any Gmax render.

If you don't like fancy glass reflections or lighting, that's fine, but if you wanted your buildings to match the in-game environment in the best way possible, you'd be using Max. Simple.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

(insert cockatoo rant)

quote>

*claps*

[Sgt Pepper 864]

I know they used a bit of MAX, but they did the glass a bit better for the game. I wasn't saying their stuff wasn't made in MAX...

And if I wanted a BAT to match the in game-environment as possible, no, I would not use MAX. Simple.

MAX models do not really match with the game, I don't understand how ya'll cannot see that. Maybe, Maxis did use an older version of MAX, or maybe not, but MAX models I've seen don't match with Maxis buildings or the ingame environment at all. Yes, I've repeated myself quite a bit, but ya'll should know that's true(not in a way where I think I'm right and my opinion should be right, I mean like something made recently in MAX compared to Maxis buildings or buildings made in Gmax look very strange...). Gmax models blend in the game better, but I'm not trying to change your views.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

It ALL depends on how well the textures/materials are tuned to fit the game. There are good examples and bad examples of each. Spa's work is done in gmax and it blends in perfectly with maxis, but we have all seen the poorly textured building that fails epically to fit in with anything (also done in gmax mind you). Now you can make an ugly building in MAX, but making something that fits in just as well isn't all that hard either. I don't mean to toot my own horn (or the BSP's) but I think my buildings fit in pretty well.

Point is, there is no black and white "Gmax looks better than 3dsMAX in SC4", its all a matter of how much effort is put in to make it blend in.

Simfox: The building is looking fantastic as usual, I love the orientation and the plaza at the base. I photoshopped it in game and think the glass is a little too saturated, but otherwise I'd say it looks good, even the intensity of the reflections. Oh, I just noticed the spiral staircase going up to the helipad, wonderful details up there!

[art128 4,618]

It's just ! Wow ! I don't have any things to suggest to this beauty !

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Well SimHoTToDDy, that was the point about what I was trying to get across with just the glass texture, about how to make it blend in, but it started in a little mini-debate... And yes, there's stuff that has been poorly textured in Gmax, I didn't say that ANYTHING made and textured in Gmax blends in better than MAX models. Basically, you repeated some stuff I all ready know there. And I hope I didn't offend you or make you think I meant your stuff in MAX didn't blend in. It blends in decently.

But in most cases, to me, most Gmax models blend in better than MAX stuff, most of it....

It's just something for a game anyway...I was just providing some constructive criticism about the glass which can(and will) be ignored.

[Chris M 406]

I actually like the reflection you've done with this building, but I would just appreciate if you made it much more subtle/simpler. As far as being a texture/reflection, what I mean is a texture that is a reflection. Now, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to MAX, but from what I understand, the glass on this building is not a "texture", but a reflection of something else in the scene? Once again, not really sure because all of my knowledge comes from gMax, where you have to "texture" to get a reflection.

On the issue of MAX buildings blending in with the game, simply put: that all depends on the materials used. There have been many great buildings completed in MAX that blend beautifully in game and do not stand out ridiculously like, no offense, but: the latest Lippo Centre.

As you wish, I've provided a few examples, that to me, blend in better to buildings made in the past:

-Aramark Tower by SimGoober

-Canterra Tower by scotty222

-LaTour CIBC by scotty222

-Chase Tower by scotty222

-AMP Centre by scotty222

-Sheffield Arts Tower by ILL Tonkso

-211 West Fort Street by jasoncw

-Trier Tower by jasoncw

-M Maria Branch Library by jasoncw

[Cockatoo 2,257]

Well I don't think I will ever completely be impressed with anything in MAX because of how it looks with everything in the game.quote>

And I hope I didn't offend you or make you think I meant your stuff in MAX didn't blend in. It blends in decently.quote>

Well at least we can both agree on one of those statements.

[psander5 197]

I love this building! I like it all; the angle, the plaza design (especially the banded paving), the roof structure and the understated helipad. My absolute favourite part is the inner courtyard with that curved glass wall. It looks so richly textured down in that hole!

One thing I'm not so sure about is the colour of the glass. It looks a bit too strongly blue to me. Other than that though it's perfect in my eyes!

[SimFox 802]

Well since I sort of started this debate I guess I should join in with some opinions of my own...

 

First of all, I appreciate the trouble both Sgt. Pepper and Dragon Anime went to in order to provide examples of what they think constitute a good glass building that is also blends into game well. Selections are different and DragonAnime’s even more varied so I’ll start with one by sgt. Pepper, but I’ll come back to one provide by DragonAmime as well.

For starters, I must say couple of things about discussions and arguments in general . Some ideas I think important to observe in order to keep discussion just that and not revert to basic brawl. Opinions are important and we all see the world a bit different from each other. Yet these differences do not mean that we shouldn’t be able to communicate and to come to some common understanding. However this process requires some common ground, otherwise it’s just like blind talking to the deaf. One of the most basic of such common ground should be ability to define and verbalize criteria.
 

So what are we talking here about? We are talking about GLASS building. I mean it should be reasonably clear that material is, in fact, a glass and not just say funnily colored concrete. Also “blend into the game” should also be distinguished from “I like it better”. First is a more or less definable condition, second is just an opinion, which could be as far out as one wish.
 

Keeping these basics in mind I would like ask the restate the comparison. Sgt. Pepper do you think these two (Van Prooijen Trading and Columbia) do look like glass

and blend into the game:





better than this:

I specially show it in two very different location to make a point of blending...

or this:




Or as a matter of fact this one:



or shown here with AMARAK Tower by Simgroober for comparision:

May I then as you to define those two basic criteria:
 

1.  what make something appear to be glass
2.  what exactly does “blend in” mean?
    

This is just about Maxis own building chosen by Sgt Pepper. Mind you I wouldn’t have chosen those myself. But these answers would be very instrumental to continue review of other building listd in his or DragonAnime replies and I could share my views on the subject. I could also explain how my views/opinions led me to develop Bat4Max and LetTherBeLight in the direction I did. I could also say which of the maxis buildings I find do glass best. And mention the technique used by Maxis that is well within the reach of GMAX BAT (although not on the level of pressing Export BAT button) which is strangely enough never used by baters.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

@Cockatoo- Not exactly.

@Simfox- The Maxis building blends in better to me compared to your other buildings. The glass on them look incredibly strange and out of place to me.

But I'm not in the mood for debate right now, continue with what you want.

[Francis90b 748]

You wrote a very well thought on post, SimFox, and i appreciate your attempt to put the discussion at an objective level and estabilish a common ground.I agree that, without those things, every discussion may easily degenerate into a nonsensical brawling.

But there is a weak point in your distiction between the objective "it does blend/it doesn't) and the subjective "i like it better".

If you have to determine how do things blend in game you might end in two situation:

A) it is really clear when something does blend or not (black-white)

or

B) it is not really clear when something blends or not.In this case, perception of blending is strictly likned with perception of things, which can change from person to person.Also, this "perception" is extremely similar (and linked with) "i like it better consideration, which is based on subjective factors.Something might blend more or less according to what is, in the end, an opinion.(scale of greys)

You might want to analyze some of the buildings in the pictures to get my point.

Maxis lack of "common ground" in modelling doesn't help as well....

Given the premises expressed above, i don't think it does have much sense to still discuss about the "blending" point, as it is nearly impossible to get the discussion on objective basis.

What i could say is that your buildings could blend more or less according to their position and to the maxis buildings that are the meter of comparison.

Sorry for that discouraging post.Can't wait to see part two of your reply!

[Sgt Pepper 864]

One thing I should have mentioned earlier is, when thinking of something that looks right for the game, you gotta think that this is an old game(compared to now) and your trying to put more advanced things in it which doesn't look right with Maxis stuff or other people's older or some recent stuff(depending on how their stuff looks as well). It's like puting advanced graphics in an old graphic game.

"And mention the technique used by Maxis that is well within the reach of GMAX BAT (although not on the level of pressing Export BAT button) which is strangely enough never used by baters."(too lazy to use the quote thing)

Hmm...do you mean the self allumination thing? I do that at times...just a wild guess there....

Oh and I'm not trying to make my opinion fact, but most of ya'll should know how most MAX creations(no not all of them) easily stand out. And no offense to Simfox, but that building he posted of his in the 6th photo(what's it called? It has windowless concrete sides...) has a glass material reflection what ever easily stands out in the game and just doesn't look right at all, for an example. Other note I should mention, most MAX BATs I see in night view are even stranger...most are darker, and these night maps don't look too good compared to many of the buildings that use original night maps or different ones that aren't true night.

EDIT: I hope I'm not sounding harsh or rude, I'm not a mean person...

[Jasoncw 11,933]

I think SimFox's glass is actually pretty similar to Maxis's glass.  Very basically both of the glasses have various chunks of value and color which approximate a reflected environment.

Also, I think there are sort of two sides to the glass problem.  One side is the environment being reflected, and on the other side is the appearance of the glass itself.  Both SimFox and Maxis use a sort of vague chunky environment to reflect.  The difference is that Maxis incorporates this into their glass texture, while SimFox has a glass material and the environment shows up in the reflections.  This way he can make glass that is internally glass-like, so the reflections are specific to the panes of glass, the angles the glass is at, the distortions, etc, even though what's being reflected isn't really any more specific than what Maxis is "reflecting".  With both there is not really any external specificity, but with Maxis there is no internal specificity either, it's just flatly painted across the surfaces.

For blending into the game, I think the most important things are the colors (game's color palette, since the game is being reflected), range in values (similar to the range of values found in the game), and scale of chunks (to match the general level of refinement as the cityscapes in the game).  I think SimFox's glass is spot on.

I think the biggest difference is that in max you have sharp renders and a lot of clarity in colors, while with gmax/Maxis (more generally, "old" lighting/rendering) everything is drab and fuzzy.  Since Sgt. Pepper thinks that "all" BATs made in max stand out, it probably has very little to do with how the reflections are done, but more generally with the sharpness and clarity of the renders, and it's more prominent to him here because glass is naturally totally not drab and fuzzy.  If you baked everything into the model and rendered it in gmax he might think it blends in.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Yea, I didn't mean just reflections, but I didn't know how to put everything else in a more better way...so to speak

"If you baked everything into the model and rendered it in gmax he might think it blends in"(still to lazy to use the quote thing)

Well, then it would depend if the textures needed re-working from a Gmax render...

[gutterclub 2,729]

Surely if everyone BATs in MAX and enough BAT's are made then eventually the Maxis buiuldings will be the odd looking buildings that are out of place in the game and all the MAX buildings will "blend" in the game, I don't think it has anything to do with how old the game is.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

To be perfectly honest, I don't really even play this game. I play it but not play it. I'm a plopper. More of a structural enthusiast, and a huge map addict. I spent most of my time the last five years obtaining map data and making maps. I've never uploaded anything to the STEX, but I worked in the military with maps/radios/comm equipment aside from the whole urban combat/convoy operations thing we all do for OEF and OIF, and had access to incredibly impressive suites of map information. Had a lot of fun just perusing map data, and looking at the way cities were planned. That being said, I almost never use Maxis buildings. I download and use the highest quality buildings I can find, and the buildings that fill whatever niche I'm currently using. I agree that next to the 'lower quality' Maxis buildings and some of the GMax stuff, the Max stuff stands out, but not like a sore thumb. Especially if you use mainly Max-made buildings. It all just comes down to taste. I'm personally hoping that more people use Max to make buildings, and that eventually we can entirely replace about everything, but once again, that's a personal flavor kinda thing.

We've also strayed partially off-topic in the flow of this little discourse, and, no offense intended Simfox, everyone's opinion is as equally valid as yours about personal flavor as to what 'blends' and what doesn't. You're like, an idol to aspiring BATters, given the contributions you've made to the community and your depth of technical expertise. But no amount of screenshots, lists, or anything else will change anyone's opinion about taste. A lot of huffin' and puffin' to no avail.

Back on topic, seeing the building in game, it looks very good. The undulations in the window flow well, and as a result, you once-again changed how I'm approaching my model. To think of all the hours I spent in photoshop making bump maps (and the memory wasted queueing bitmaps during renders), when a simple noise map would have done the trick! I'm definitely looking into using more procedural textures to save my butt a crapload of hassle. Well, that, and trying to get a new computer, and doing my taxes, and a million other things...

This beast I'm using reminds me of WIndows 95...

[psander5 197]

Ah, now that I see it in game, the blueness of the glass doesn't look so strong any more. It seems to fit in with the game's colour palette.

I'm not one for debating, so I won't go into length in revealing my full opinions (I was going to but my word count was getting out of hand), but I'm a fan of the custom content climate we have. All is good in my eyes. Both Max and GMAX can be used to make SimCity buildings of superb quality, and I can use both, provided they sit high on their different and independent quality scales. We have to remember though that MAX isn't available to everyone, nor is it as easy to use, so we have to be careful not to elevate the qualities of MAX to such a level that it makes GMAX users feel alienated.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

A true statement, and far less verbose than mine, haha. I have a tendency to 'Go Kerouac on everybody's (blank)" and let my words flow. I only got Max through sheer luck, in having a friend with the program, but I only switched from GMax recently, and a lot of good stuff has come out of that program too. I don't intend to alienate anybody.