New I-35W Bridge opens in Minneapolis (9/18/08)

[nothingman4913 0]

The coverage of the event is what it should be, alot. This event, as horrific as it is, shines a major light on to a national problem, the crumbling infrastructure of America. If the federal government does not step in and start to regulate not only bridges but all construction we will be dealing with these issues more and more. A single state alone can not pay for all the roadwork that is needed. Tens of Millions of dollors are spent every year by the states just to repave roadways and do minor repair work. This is why the Feds need to step and help out and create a standard for construction activities.

Also it takes years upon years to design, bid, re-design, value engineer, bid again, and then finally construct any kind of major repair or replacement for a bridge. (sometimes decades!)

[nothingman4913 0]

Also the coverage will probably end when Lindsey Lohan, Britney, or some other "hollywood" star does something that illegal and gets away with it.

"they weren't even her pants!" Yes I always were pants I just find, and never check the pockets.....Donkey!

[confused04 14]

Update : 5 Dead, 111 injured, 8 missing

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: crazyyaya I also agree the media has overblown, even exploited this story. CNN has basically had 2 days of solid reporting on this area.quote>

 

Well, I'm not against the amount of media coverage. I'm just against the mass hysteria they are creating by saying the bridges labeled "deficient" could fall at any minute. 

I personally don't think 2 days of solid reporting is bad at all. Think about 9/11 (I'm not comparing this event to that one). That was live 24/7 for 2 weeks on almost every channel.

[JDRCRASH 53]

The reason why we don't "update" ourselves so to speak, might be because we're so sucked into our daily routines that we don't have the time to modify and take care of the infrastructure that is deteriorating.

I think we also have to look at the bigger perspective in long term.

For instance, after 100 years, when the San Andreas finally unleashes it's wrath, the Los Angeles basin could be threatened by failing 20th Century dams, creating a flood disaster that could easily top 1 Trillion, causing chaos TEN times as bad as what we saw in New Orleans. Millions of people would be without power and water. And if transformer wood poles collapse on the water, electrocution is risk factor.

Or what about the pumps that operate under New York City? Are they guarunteed to function properly during a Category 5, or possibly a new 6 Hurricane?

So many commuters use the subway system, which by the way, is only dry and operable because of the literally constant pumping of water out of Manhattan.

Structurally deficient is broad category. However, this absolutely must be a priority for Homeland Security and FEMA.

[Meg 368]

The civil engineers have been saying for years now that the bridges in the country are old and need to be repaired or replaced.   Maybe now, people will give this problem the resources required to fix it.

[Jazzmaster 716]

Originally posted by: nothingman4913 The coverage of the event is what it should be, alot. This event, as horrific as it is, shines a major light on to a national problem, the crumbling infrastructure of America. If the federal government does not step in and start to regulate not only bridges but all construction we will be dealing with these issues more and more. A single state alone can not pay for all the roadwork that is needed. Tens of Millions of dollors are spent every year by the states just to repave roadways and do minor repair work. This is why the Feds need to step and help out and create a standard for construction activities.

Also it takes years upon years to design, bid, re-design, value engineer, bid again, and then finally construct any kind of major repair or replacement for a bridge. (sometimes decades!)quote>

 

Originally posted by: Micah

Originally posted by: crazyyaya I also agree the media has overblown, even exploited this story. CNN has basically had 2 days of solid reporting on this area.quote>

 

Well, I'm not against the amount of media coverage. I'm just against the mass hysteria they are creating by saying the bridges labeled "deficient" could fall at any minute. 

I personally don't think 2 days of solid reporting is bad at all. Think about 9/11 (I'm not comparing this event to that one). That was live 24/7 for 2 weeks on almost every channel.quote>

Yes, I saw it on the news last night.  They said there's about 125,000 bridges in the USA and about 1 out of 4 of them are either "obsolete" or "structuraly defecient".  However, there's a sort of scale to it.  If a bridge is about 1 or 2 on this "defeciency scale", then it could fall any minute.  If a bridge is a 3, 4, or a 5 however, it's considered safe to the traveling public, and most US bridges are on the lighter side of that scale.

This reminds me of the Sunshine Skyway bridge collapse a long time ago.  I wasn't alive when it happened, but I saw a recap on the news last night-since I live in Tampa Bay-and a huge ship rammed into during choppy waters and foggy air.  That's why the new one has much higher clearance and flashing lights on the two black support towers in case it gets foggy, and there's signs before the bridge with lights and say either "high winds when flashing" or "sunshine skyway closed when flashing".  Not that Minneanapolis (did I spell that right) needs to worry about strong coastal winds, but you get what I'm trying to say, right?  The design needs an upgrade.

[patriots_1228 51]

well, a bit of good news, as confused said. missing number has been lowered to 8.

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/08/03/730701.html&cvqh=itn_deathtoll

i dont know if you have to be registered there or not, if you do, sorry bout that.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

Of course, thanks to the news of the awful event, news organizations and localities are scrambling to point out all the "structurally deficient" bridges in their areas. Which brings us the absurdity of what has been revealed now in the gulf coast city of Corpus Christi, Texas:

It has been determined how many bridges in the state where categorized as "structurally deficient" from national lists, but, because of new security rules enacted after the 9/11 attacks, the Texas Department of Transportation cannot reveal to the public which bridges were declared deficient or what their specific deficiencies are, lest the Evil Terrorists Lurking Everywhere Among Us find out. They are hidden state secrets, and they will not even confirm the number of bridges involved, which makes allocating and prioritizing a public budget kinda meaningless. Try playing SimCity that way, hehehe.

But rest assured, the hidden deficiencies which are unadmitted and unacknowledged are being diligiently unaddressed by your state officials. Yep, you can trust them to do the unnecessary job that doesn't exist!

[The Mighty Cheese Grater 0]

Did they ever figure out what was wrong with it? It looks similar to a bridge in my city, well, ours was replaced a few years ago, but that bridge did look pretty flimsy, especially for 8 lanes of constant traffic going across and it being in downtown Minneapolis.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: The Mighty Cheese Grater 

. . . especially for 8 lanes of constant traffic going across and it being in downtown Minneapolis.quote>

That is one of the concerns here:  that these bridges are handling much more traffic than originally anticipated.  Which is leading to metal fatigue at a greater rate and extent than was anticipated. 

I'm no structural engineer but I can see how if you expect a bridge to handle X cars per hour and instead it has to handle 3X cars per hour, it would be taking more of a beating than originally expected.  especially in an environment with temperature extremes.

[confused04 14]

Its amazing how much information you can find on Facebook that CNN, MSNBC, FOX, Kare11, KSTP, or WCCO lack. Reading a local group on Facebook, suddenly stories and faces were attached to names and its very heart wrenching. Its one thing to hear a name, its another when you know what they meant to a community and you hear people on TV pleading for any information. The clip of the family who's wife/mother was among the confirmed dead is amongst the most depressing footage I've seen since September 11th, 3/11, and 7-7-05. For being the size that we are, Minneapolis-St.Paul is an amazingly tight community. If we don't know someone directly affected by the bridge incident, we all know of someone through a friend or family member that has been directly affected. I've never heard people say "I don't think I can go downtown, I'm not ready."

[football_fever 6]

An amazing thing that Brian Williams touched on was the way Minnesotans have responded to this. They've said that people are constantly bringing food they've cooked down to the rescuers. My mom says our family motto is "Eat now", and that's pretty much what the neighbors are doing.

Many businesses based here have donated tons of materials as well. Caribou Coffee (nation's #2 coffee chain behind starbucks) donated a ton of coffee, and Target brought a trailer load of food and supplies to them.

I just can't believe all the stories coming out of it of ordinary people doing incredible things like pulling kids out of the bus despite being in a car that just fell with the bridge. More and more stories will come from it.

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

These kinds of situations always bring out the best in people, I'm hoping to hear more good news, Keep us posted football_fever, confused04, and IDS2!

[brtim2 11]

I just have a quick question for those of you from MPLS/STPL (could that be the abbreviation, I really don't know) and/or the Minnesota region. Follow me for a moment, this could go for a tangent....

Reading through *some* news reports, it says it was an 8 lane bridge, correct? I'm assuming that means 4 North, 4 South, right? (Or 5/3, but I'm gonna go with 4/4.) And the only reason there weren't more cars in the bridge was because one lane each way was opened due to repaving the three other lanes each way? And it happened at 6:05 local time, or so I'm told. Middle of rush hour for most areas. Can I assume that all this is correct?

Ok, here's what I can't wrap my head around, and it has nothing to do with the bridge (or any bridge for that matter) not doing the *only* job it was built to do, and that's to hold people up.

I can't understand why 6 lanes of a major highway bridge in the middle of a large metro region during rush hour, before a sports game 3/4 of a mile away, were closed for repaving. Seriously, does this happen often? I'm assuming (look at me ma, I've got assumptions!) that since the Mississippi runs through there are quite a few bridges. When they need to be repaved, does the majority of the bridge shut down to do this? During rush hour? Both of them?

I know this is for a "How Well do You Know Your State Road Crews and Their Work Habits?" thread, but I think there's too many of them. So if anyone can clue me in to why MPLS/STPL, Minnesota and/or the Midwest does this, I'm all eyes.

[confused04 14]

Minnesota has two seasons... winter and construction.... thats basically the answer. You have to resurface the road sometime and you can't do it any earlier because the baseball season starts when it still snows in Minnesota. You can't wait til the end of baseball season in October. You HAVE to repave during baseball season. It wasn't reduced to one lane in each direction, it was reduced to two lanes in each direction. They did it for 94 as well. It was not out of the ordinary.

The best way to refer to the metro area is to call it the "Twin Cities" or "MSP" (Edit: If you want to say it shorter than Minneapolis - St. Paul)

Edit: Just wanted to post a pic of the front page news of the Thursday copy of the Pioneer Press, St. Paul's primary newspaper. It speaks for itself.

[rodent1989 9]

CNN has been covering this alot too.  They told an amazing story about the blue mini-van that I'm sure many of you have seen.  It stopped just 20 (or less) feet from the edge of the bridge as it fell.  The driver saw that it was falling and that he couldn't stop in time so he steered into the gaurd rail to slow down.  Then he had to figure out a way to get out of the van.  He is a quadraplegic and simply exiting the van meant he and his wheelchair would slide down the steep incline into the river.  He said he felt so powerless, he could hear the screams but couldn't do anything to help.  Eventually rescuers helped him off the bridge.  Then Anderson Cooper took him to the hospital.  On of many amazing stories.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek I'm no structural engineer but I can see how if you expect a bridge to handle X cars per hour and instead it has to handle 3X cars per hour, it would be taking more of a beating than originally expected.  especially in an environment with temperature extremes.quote>

What that does is it accelerates the aging and wear and tear on the bridge. A bridge has to be built to be able to handle being packed with traffic, since no matter how light you expect the traffic to be something can always cause it to back up.

This is something that's really more of an issue with bridges than buildings due to the fact that bridges in effect have a lot more live load. Dead load really doesn't contribute to wear and tear much since it's constant. What causes fatigue in materials is applying a load and then removing it repeatedly, which is exactly what you have with cars driving over a bridge. It exists to a lesser extent in buildings due to people walking around.

And it is an issue with overcrowded highways everywhere. It's part of why the big dig in Boston took place. The old elevated highway had way too much traffic on it and was weakening at an alarming rate.

The George Washington Bridge in NYC has lost 10% of its structural strength since it first opened in 1931. The adding of the lower deck accelerated this. It's in no danger of collapse, though, due to the fact that it was extremely over-engineered. It should be able to stand up even if it loses half its original strength. Naturally, though, most bridges aren't built so sturdy since doing so costs more money. Such was done with the GWB because they originally planned to cover the towers in granite (which would have been a lot more weight for the bridge to support), and because due to the fact that they were building a suspension bridge significantly longer than any had come before it and back then calculations couldn't be as precise, they simply went crazy with it to play on the safe side.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87 

Originally posted by: SkiGeek I'm no structural engineer but I can see how if you expect a bridge to handle X cars per hour and instead it has to handle 3X cars per hour, it would be taking more of a beating than originally expected.  especially in an environment with temperature extremes.quote>

What that does is it accelerates the aging and wear and tear on the bridge. quote>

 

Thanks, Duke.  That makes sense to me.

I’ve been thinking about this and looking at the possibilities as to why this happened.  I have no facts that are not publicly available; I’m just speculating here.  Try as I might, I can only come up with three categories of possibilities as to why:

Technical incompetence.  We know that traffic was heavier than anticipated and temperatures vary considerably but the fact remains that normal variables – the original specs of the bridge, the amount of traffic, the temperature variance, the maintenance history, and so forth – are all known quantities.  It is possible that the technical people (engineers, inspectors, and so forth) could not or did not put those variables together in a way that indicated that collapse was imminent.  I find that I do not want to believe that this is the case.

Bureaucratic incompetence.  We know that funding for infrastructure maintenance has been shortchanged.  We also know that managers and bureaucrats often tell engineers that their plans are too expensive and need to be scaled back.  It is possible that the technical people did their job correctly and their recommendations were disregarded, or at least watered down, by the bureaucrats.  I find that I believe this possibility is the most likely.

The unknown, abnormal variables. It is possible that the technical people and the bureaucrats both did their jobs properly but there are other bizarre factors that weren’t considered.  No one wants to talk about sabotage being a factor; rightly so since there is no evidence of it so far.  It doesn’t seem like a logical target to me; I would think one of the bridges in DC would make a stronger statement to those inclined to make statements in that way.  In theory, I guess it’s possible that lightning (or some similar event) hit the bridge at some point and no one noticed but that seems a bit farfetched to me.

There are probably other options that I’m not thinking of.  And I know it doesn’t matter what I want the answer to be.  The answer will be what it will be regardless of how I feel about it.  But I do seem to be a bit stuck on "this isn’t normal" and I want there to be some kind of answer as to why it happened.  This shouldn't have happened.  What was missed?

[confused04 14]

Not to even indicate that sabotage is a possibility, but there is some logic to attacking a bridge like the I-35 W bridge. Fear. Everyone EXPECTS DC to be a huge target, and if there were a bridge attack in DC it would be horrific, but it wouldn't be AS terrifying as attacking something that everyone assumes is "safe from terrorism". If a statement were to be made, attacking a soft target in a somewhat lower profile city in "Middle America" would shake the country to the core. Right now people have the mentality of "I don't live in LA, DC, NYC or any of those cities. I'm safe". If you can obliterate that sense of isolation, that would be terror.

So far, news has been sparse from the site. WCCO reported that many members of the public have had difficulty getting a view of the collapse site.  Police have claimed that most of the best sites are being blocked to "help with the rescue effort by reducing foot traffic".  The name for the fifth victim has been released. Cars are being pulled from the water.  Bypassed red tape hopes to have a bridge open my 2009. 

What I've been wondering is how the 2008 Republican National Convention will be affected by this bridge collapse.  The Twin Cities depends on hotels from across the metropolitan area and now that the northern half the the metro has significant alterations to traffic patterns. The RNC needed at least 30,000 hotel rooms, of which only a fraction are within downtown St. Paul (where Xcel Energy Center is located).

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: confused04 

Right now people have the mentality of "I don't live in LA, DC, NYC or any of those cities. I'm safe". If you can obliterate that sense of isolation, that would be terror.quote>

You are probably right, confused, that many people in middle America have that mentality, based on the fact that you have been there recently and I haven't.    

I don't fully understand that sense of isolation but that's due to my own circumstances.  (I lived less than 1/2 mile from the Pentagon on 9/11, had my mail held in anthrax quarantine for a month, and frequented most of the spots the DC snipers hit.  I can't begin to delude myself that I'm isolated from this garbage.)

So far, news has been sparse from the site. WCCO reported that many members of the public have had difficulty getting a view of the collapse site.  Police have claimed that they have most of the best sites are being blocked to "help with the rescue effort by reducing foot traffic".  quote>

That's how it was with the Pentagon.  The closest the public could get was the south lawn of the Navy Annex and that was on the other side of a highway.

What I've been wondering is how the 2008 Republican National Convention will be affected by this bridge collapse.  The Twin Cities depends on hotels from across the metropolitan area and now that the northern half the the metro has significant alterations to traffic patterns. The RNC needed at least 30,000 hotel rooms, of which only a fraction are within downtown St. Paul (where Xcel Energy Center is located).quote>

 

An excellent point.  That might even answer the question of why anyone would chose to do something there.  If it turns out to be something other than incompetence.  Which would still be criminal, imho.  As far as I know, negligence leading to fatalities is still a crime.

[JDRCRASH 53]

As I said, it is up to the next Presidency to contemplate on upgrading our infrastructure nationwide.

As for Terrorism, since New York City has already been targeted, I fear that Los Angeles may be the next target

I mean think about it guys, if its easy for the MAFIA to send millions of pounds of drugs over our border, isn't it just as easy for AL QUEDA to possibly work with them in a drug deal to send a Nuclear Warhead over the border or in the ports.

After all Los Angeles imports 40% of the Nations' cargo!

And......on the TODAY show, this guy being interviewed said that AL QUEDA has plans to kill as many as 4 million people here in the United States.

Doesn't L.A. fit that category more than New York?

[Jazzmaster 716]

*sigh* you guys were right about this being blown out of proportion by the media. There was a special on CNN earlier called "Road to Ruin" about how the transportation here is so dangerous. Actually, my uncle watched me play and said "this is game is a good lesson on urban planning, something this country needs" lol.

[confused04 14]

Today is the one week mark for the I 35 W bridge disaster. News hasn't been too common in the past few days with none of the missing recovered. So far, reports from the 1970's brings into question both state, federal, and outside inspection processes of American bridges. Cracks were reported in the superstructure as early as eight years after the bridge was built. Steel plates were recommended to bolster the steel structure, none were used and inspections continued. Plans for a new bridge are already in the works with funding guaranteed and political pressure at its highest, a bridge is expected to open in late 2008. Designs are going to be approved as early as September and construction beginning as soon as debris is cleared.

New video released from MNDOT traffic cams shows the chaos on the roads just minutes after the collapse. I was wondering if the cams spotted anything since I routinely use them to see snow conditions during the winter. The cameras were not focused on the bridge which would have been quite helpful.

Edit:

6th Body has been recovered from the collapse site.  11 Cars have been removed from the bridge with another 88 vehicles still in the wreckage.

[Micah 16]

I can't believe it's been three weeks since this happened!

Anyway, they found the last victim today.

[IDS2 3,436]

Finally! So that makes 11 dead...oh man...that took a while. I suppose finding the last victim is good for the families, but sad because they're dead. As new information comes in I thank everyone for keeping this thraed updated.

[confused04 14]

Originally posted by: IDS2 Finally! So that makes 11 dead...oh man...that took a while. I

 suppose finding the last victim is good for the families, but sad because they're dead. As new information comes in I thank everyone for keeping this thraed updated.quote>

That actually makes the final death toll at 13, assuming there are no victims remaining that were not included in the missing which the Hennepin County sheriff's department says "is unlikely but a real possibility."  Not only did we lose 13 people that day, but 111 people were injured, some severely.  They are now ramping up the speed of removing debris and opening the 10th Avenue Bridge that was closed to keep pedestrians away.  Many of the river walking paths will be open to some extent. The bridge collapse is currently causing businesses to lose an estimated $400,000 per day and if we don't have a bridge for 18 months, that is about $216 million in loses on top of the $330 million price tag for a new bridge.

The cause of the collapse is still unknown but there are three things that the NTSB have been looking at, two of which are serious and the other is just because they are grabbing on to any possible explanation. The first is the connecting pieces of metal that held the trusses together. They were of obsolete design and were in poor condition with some missing bolts.  The second is the automatic de-icing system that can be corrosive.  Finally, they are examining whether pigeon feces... yes... pigeon feces deposited enough ammonia to cause the structure to rust abnormally fast.

Minnesota has not been having a good month as floods affected 4,600 homes and killed at least 7 people. This is following a severe drought that had already plunged much of the state into agricultural ruin.  Local municipalities are struggling with these disasters and have requested national guard troops.  

Thats about all I know....

Edit: My grandma knows the lady who was driving behind the bus on the day the bridge collapsed. She luckily made it out alive.

[confused04 14]

Progress continues around the disaster site in removing the thousands upon thousands of tons of rubble. There is one very interesting note in the collapse investigation.

The I-35 W bridge was the FIRST major bridge in the United States to be installed with an automatic de-icer system in 1999 to combat ice build up during storms and the mist that settled on the bridge from near by falls. This was heralded as a marvel since this bridge was named the most problematic icing spot in the state with significant reduction in vehicular accidents by 60%. However, this system used potassium acetate as the de-icing agent. A recent FAA memo from Portland's airport reveals that potassium acetate corrodes concrete and lead to cracking and even crumbling of the runway in Portland. The National Academy of Sciences recommended a study into the affects of CH3COOK and its corrosive effects which the proposal warns "at risk (are) concrete bridge decks and supporting structures." This alone is not necessarily the cause directly, but a comprehensive study from 2001 revealed that the storage tanks for the CH3COOK performed poorly and leaked 3,100 gallons of the compound into the foundation of the bridge.

The scariest part of this story.....

I 35 E in St. Paul features the same system, less than ten miles away.

I was going through my collection of photos and I noticed something that caught my attention. Just two weeks before the collapse I took a photo of Minneapolis AS I crossed the bridge. As all Twin Cities residents have felt, it's scary to think that disaster was imminent and that we used that bridge not knowing the impending doom.

[IDS2 3,436]

Woah confused 2 weeks before! I have a picture from a spot nearby, in the parking lot with the camera that took the footage I believe...I was near Weismann. Nice picture by the way.