A BBC article on Americans and Alcohol

[DanWalker8 3]

So I was cruising the BBC as I do every day, and came across this article about a mother who was arrested for having a responsible party at her house with underage drinking.  Here is an exerpt

"In Virginia, like in much of the US, you can drive when you are 15, die in the army at 17 and buy a gun at 18.

But you cannot let beer or wine pass your lips legally until you are 21.

On that night in 2003 Elisa knew that she was breaking the law but since she was doing so at home, she did not think that anybody would know - or care, for that matter.

Selective Puritanism

The bizarre and selective Puritanism of the US is as old as the nation.

This country boasts a multibillion dollar porn industry that dwarfs the GDP of most developing countries."

The article in full : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6747807.stm

I think the US should remove its drinking age requirement. The article does a good job of pointing out how it is backwards compared to the other legal things minors can do.  I just wondered what the community thinks on this. 

[vershner 11]

Yeah, it's a mess, but then most countries have weird oddities in their laws like this.

For example: In the UK it is legal to have sex at 16, but it's not legal to watch a video of people having sex until you are 18.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: vershner Yeah, it's a mess, but then most countries have weird oddities in their laws like this.

For example: In the UK it is legal to have sex at 16, but it's not legal to watch a video of people having sex until you are 18.quote>

Well the normal age for pornography is 18 all around the world. I fail to see your point.

[ACEfanatic 7]

Originally posted by: toxicpiano

Originally posted by: vershner Yeah, it's a mess, but then most countries have weird oddities in their laws like this.

For example: In the UK it is legal to have sex at 16, but it's not legal to watch a video of people having sex until you are 18.quote>

Well the normal age for pornography is 18 all around the world. I fail to see your point.quote>

Just because it's what the rest of the world does, it still doesn't make sense.  You can have sex, but watching porn would "corrupt" you.

Luckily, it's one of those BS laws that cannot be enforced.

-ACE

[Barbarossa 51]

Originally posted by: vershner Yeah, it's a mess, but then most countries have weird oddities in their laws like this.

For example: In the UK it is legal to have sex at 16, but it's not legal to watch a video of people having sex until you are 18.quote>

Toxicpiano said:

Well the normal age for pornography is 18 all around the world. I fail to see your point.quote>

Seems pretty simply to me... you can do it, but you can't watch it being done? How is a young guy supposed to learn anything and gain points with all the girls?  ... or vice versa... don't want to sound sexist...

Barbarossa

EDIT:  just added a ?

[vershner 11]

Originally posted by: toxicpiano

Originally posted by: vershner Yeah, it's a mess, but then most countries have weird oddities in their laws like this.

For example: In the UK it is legal to have sex at 16, but it's not legal to watch a video of people having sex until you are 18.quote>

Well the normal age for pornography is 18 all around the world. I fail to see your point.quote>

No, the American age is 18. American does not necessarily equal normal.

[josefmayor 8]

lol I bought a crap load of alcohol in the UK and brought it back with me to the states and I'm 18 so all is good...

hehe.

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Theres a differance between Sex and Pornography may i add. Sex is a normal natural thing between two people, watching it is differant.

Back on topic, its legal to drink in your own home at 5 in the UK lol.

[topcliff 1]

I also believe that in Italia (good old homeland, want to visit soon), a child can have wine at any age as long as it is with dinner. Plus, that whole porn thing is just . . . weird. You'd have to be pretty lame to do something like that. TopCliff

[confused04 14]

There are far weirder things about all countries. Countries that have lower drinking ages have a greater social emphasis on alcohol, where the US does not. Its a simple cultural difference and highlighting it as an "injustice" through tainted British goggles makes little to no sense. Most of the world drives on the right, but I don't consider the UK system a blasphemous institution against right handed people. Sati, the old hindu tradition of a women throwing herself on a funeral pyre of her husband was deemed horrific by western standards as the British colonized India, but again thats using their own point of view and forcing it on others is in itself wrong. Granted, I do believe the drinking age should be 18. But then again, I see why people DON'T want it to be 18. The US was founded completely differently from other countries but to blast us for our puritan past and its vestigial laws seems rather... arrogant. I'm sure every country has its absurd laws. I mean, TV licenses are quite backwards in our point of view, but thats OUR point of view. Whats right and wrong are obviously going to be different from country to country, state to state, city to city and person to person.

And technically you can't die in the US army until your 18, you can sign up before that though I'm not sure about militias.

[Micah 16]

Confused, I actually believe the UK drove on the right side at one time, but some king (forgot who) switched it over to the left side. (Perhaps the British members can clear that up for me ).

Anyway, I'm glad America has a drinking limit at 21. Just look at all the accidents that occur from underaged drunks. They are one of the largest causes of driving casualities. By the way, keep in mind that those laws you stated, Dan, are all from Virginia.

Lastly, let's get off the pornography topic. (warning)

[josefmayor 8]

Well still the largest casualty due to drunk driving is mostly middle aged people, even before the change in the age from 18 to 21

[JanYpe 17]

Anyway, I'm glad America has a drinking limit at 21. Just look at all the accidents that occur from underaged drunks. They are one of the largest causes of driving casualities.quote>

...Caused by children unaccustomed to drink, who drink in an uncontrolled environment. Raising the driving age to 18 and increasing education seems a better way than clinging onto an archaic law that gets circumvented as much as possible.

[confused04 14]

Unfortunately, raising the driving age to 18 will reduce the workforce significantly, a hit the US would love to avoid. The US has one of the highest percentages for teenage employment (although it is slipping). It was not uncommon for myself to work 40 hours a week on top of the 35 hours of class and hours of homework during highschool. I knew several people with two or three jobs during highschool. To limit mobility would certainly damage the ability for teens to gain work and employers to find cheap labor... its not going to happen. Education of alcohol and drugs is probably stricter than most nations, again, as its set up from a puritan vantage point. I never met a British person who didn't drink (drink being used very loosely meaning they didn't mind consuming a point now and then). About 1 out of 6 do not drink alcohol in ANY form ever in the US. Seems to be working. Besides, comparing traffic statistics between nations doesn't work as you can't control all variables such as mass transit ridership, distances needed to reach home, speeds, layout and such.

[hamsterTK 93]

I think puritans have less to do with it, that died out a long time ago

Some people in the US watch too much TV and think underage drinking is the boogeyman just like illegal immigrants who might possibly be sex predators...

I think the US should remove its drinking age requirement. The article does a good job of pointing out how it is backwards compared to the other legal things minors can do. I just wondered what the community thinks on this. quote>

Yeah, I think a lot of people do actually. I had a college proffesor who was very conservative, yet we had a big discussion on that and he was for lowering the age

My opinion is that this is the result of various activist groups(MADD, etc) having massive power in the government as a result of the big conservative reaction in the 80's. Remember, back in the 70's when our parents were our age, it was only 18

Personally I dont buy that the age must be that to stop drunk driving. LOL in much of canada its 18 or 19 I believe and last time I checked their auto-centric society(particularly alberta) hasnt crumbled.....

the problem with just lowering it now though, AFAIK, is that the law that sets the age at 21 is pegged to a law that provides federal funding for highway projects. So while individual states technically have the right to regulate alcohol and the drinking age, its set up where they would have to stop accepting money for road improvement and maintenence projects(not gonna happen).

Anyways, screw the law, hasnt stopped me..

[Barbarossa 51]

the problem with just lowering it now though, AFAIK, is that the law that sets the age at 21 is pegged to a law that provides federal funding for highway projects. So while individual states technically have the right to regulate alcohol and the drinking age, its set up where they would have to stop accepting money for road improvement and maintenence projects(not gonna happen)quote>

My understanding is that this policy was trashed a few years ago. The linkage WAS there, split between drinking age and state-specified speed limits. As you probably have seen, but not realized, is that states have now begun to adjust speed limits. There are highways in Montana that have no real speed limit, and then there are a ton of states that raised the maximum speed to 70 or 75, even on state highways. However, I have yet to see any evidence that the states are revisiting the drinking age. It could be because of the powerful groups you mentioned, like MADD and DARE, etc. An interesting scenario...

I think 18 would be fine, but I think it needs to go hand-in-hand with education... however, this is a problem itself. It is well known that telling a minor NOT to do something just makes them want to do it more (ask a parent).

Barbarossa

[Hanson784 165]

The tone of that BBC article seemed to give slight jab at American culture. Every culture around the world is different and should be respected. Besides, there used to be crazy laws all over the nation. Maybe the drinking age will get lowered in the future.

Though, there have been interesting points about underage drinking in the US stated in this thread. An entire book could be written on the subject.

The role alcohol has played in American society, pop culture and the media (especially movies) is intriguing.

Many high school parties have alcohol being served at them because teenagers think they are mature enough to drink. They can drive a car like grownups but it is illegal for them to drink. In a way this is sort of a rebellion against that fact. But many times this rebellion goes overboard and binge drinking occurs. Binge drinking could also be linked to personal problems and could seen as a perpetual temporary solution to the problem (but that‘s a discussion for another thread).

Fraternities in college are appealing to incoming freshmen (who are under 21) and away from the parents for the first time because they want to fit in and be accepted. Unfortunately, binge drinking also occurs at frat parties. Kegs and cars make for a dangerous mix.

American teens have been told to not drink by many adults and at the same time see movies like American Pie, which is written, produced and directed by adults, showing them scenes where the cool teenagers are nearly drinking themselves under the table. Those years are one of the toughest times in a persons life and they are getting mixed messages.

Instead, they should be told how to drink responsibly. If the drinking age is lowered teens need to be educated about the subject and told how to deal with personal and social problems without turning to alcohol and drugs

It would be interesting to see a comparative study between European teenagers and American teens and see what continent has a higher rate of teenage drunk driving. It would also be interesting to see a study done on how European and American teens view alcohol.

[ricb 19]

I was under the impression that parents can serve alcohol to their children in homes. The reason being that it is actually a freedom of religion issue.

[coolotter88 2]

if we lower the drinking age (say to 12) below the driving age, maybe we wouldn't have as many drunk driving accidents (because the drunks won't be driving!)

flawed logic...I know.

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: ricb I was under the impression that parents can serve alcohol to their children in homes. The reason being that it is actually a freedom of religion issue.quote>

 

Freedom of religion? I think a person making a case before a judge that they illegally drank below the age limit because of freedom of religion would probably loose their case.

[Barbarossa 51]

I was under the impression that parents can serve alcohol to their children in homes. The reason being that it is actually a freedom of religion issue.quote>

LOL... "my religion dictates that my kid should get plastered, because it brings them closer to God". What religion is that? My mom would like to join... Maybe Freedom of Expression would apply, but Freedom of Religion... I don't think so.

Now peyote... that is another issue altogether...

Barbarossa

[confused04 14]

There is a freedom of religion aspect to drinking as some people do want their kids to drink proper wine at communion and such.

According to the NIAAA, approximately 1 in 18 (15 million) people are considered alcohol dependent in the US

Alcohol Concern, a charity in England pegs their numbers at 1 in 13 (around 4.5 million).

There is obvious some cultural and law enforcement differences between the two countries that account for the differences in the prevalence of alcoholism. Being part of the sciences, I realize that I cannot establish causality with these numbers, but the difference is important. I cannot tell if the numbers are a result of different drinking ages, or as a result of differing views of alcohol or both.

As numbers are very hard to come by, I do find the logic of raising teens on alcohol before driving to reduce drunk driving quite flawed. Just because you can drink at a younger age, that doesn't mean you are more likely to grow up with it responsibly (is that reflected in the numbers, i don't know). And, if you drive at a younger age, you will be more responsible with driving and perhaps will not be tempted to drive drunk. I think the only way to improve alcoholism is to change views as a society which takes a while.

EDIT: According to the National Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy for England, 8.2 million people drink above the 21 units per week that they deem "alcoholic" costing over 40 million dollars in social/economic/health losses per year.  This would translate into approximately 1 in 7.3 people. 

[vershner 11]

Originally posted by: Micah Confused, I actually believe the UK drove on the right side at one time, but some king (forgot who) switched it over to the left side. (Perhaps the British members can clear that up for me ).quote>

No, UK has been left since Roman times. It was done so that you would pass other travellers on your right, and be able to draw your sword on them if necessary.

France switched to driving on the right after the revolution, because riding on the left was associated with the aristocracy (who had horses and swords). As Napoleon invaded his way around Europe he converted more countries to right. Others were changed later when they were invaded by Germany in the first or second world wars.

The US went right because of the different wagons they used or something, and the fact that they were using guns by then rather than swords.

[Easy Bakes 253]

What about the several beer ads i hear on radio sometimes.

The is a direct Quote from one of them

"Please drink Responsibly,

 And remember Responsibly means 21"

Since when does responsibly drinking mean only being of legal age?

Responsibly means in moderation and dont drive if you have had too much.

[coolotter88 2]

I guess they mean "reponsibly also means 21" but they're defective at making ads.

alcoholism is also genetic, if your dad's an alcoholic then I guess you might have some trouble with alcohol yourself...but it's only to a certain extent.

[Meg 368]

Way back when I was in high school, the drinking age in most states in the USA was 18.  The thinking was, if you could be drafted and vote at 18, you could drink.

Problem was, there were many kids dying in drunk driving crashes.  Every graduating class in my school had a few.  The class a few years after mine lost 9 recent graduates between the June when they graduated and the end of that summer.  In, if I recall correctly, 5 separate crashes.

Multiply that over most towns in the country and the drinking age was soon raised back to 21.

One major cultural difference:  In England most people walk home from their local pub.  In America, most people drive.   Drinking + driving = bad news

I was surprised to find out that many Brits still drink the way we did the in 60s and 70s.  It's true that's not done here much anymore.  If I drank the way my friends do, I would be encouraged to go into rehab.

[Pixelrage 34]

I think it's because kids were raised the wrong way, to begin with. When you're forbidden to have anything, you want it twice as bad. So, when you aren't "allowed" to have alcohol at home, you can't wait to go out and get drunk at your 1st given opportunity. I'm glad I was never raised that way.

[topcliff 1]

There's actually sense between the England/America debate. In England, people just walk to pubs (I assume they're everywhere). In America, being completely reliant on TV, Hummers, and Taco Bell (f*** them, ruined my life), poeple drive to get beer. At the market, at restaurants, at bars, and even . . . other places. Even though I'm under the drinking age, I've had wine numerous times, enforcing my Italian heritage. And, when you combine all the fresh tiramisu I've eaten, I've had about 5 gallons of rum. Uh-thank ya'. TopCliff

[deadwoods 542]

Originally posted by: vershner

Originally posted by: Micah Confused, I actually believe the UK drove on the right side at one time, but some king (forgot who) switched it over to the left side. (Perhaps the British members can clear that up for me ).quote>

No, UK has been left since Roman times. It was done so that you would pass other travellers on your right, and be able to draw your sword on them if necessary.

France switched to driving on the right after the revolution, because riding on the left was associated with the aristocracy (who had horses and swords). As Napoleon invaded his way around Europe he converted more countries to right. Others were changed later when they were invaded by Germany in the first or second world wars.

The US went right because of the different wagons they used or something, and the fact that they were using guns by then rather than swords.quote>

There's a good Wikipedia article on this; about a third of the world drives on the left (by population). Many are old British colonies; Australia & NZ, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Hong Kong and much of SE Asia. Canada changed to be in synch with the US. Not sure why Japan drives on the left; although the article says it may be due to 1) samurai wearing their swords on the left  and avoiding knocking each other (and unlike western swords, the hilt is worn almost horizontal and forward of the body), and 2) because the Brits helped them build their railways.

[vilbe 6]

IMO you need to learn how to drink before you drive, but they'd never reduce the drinking age less than 18 nevermind 16....

that being said, its all up to the states. however if any state DOES decrease there drinking age from 21, they will loose significant federal highway funding, which kind of makes it defacto 21 unless politicians rewrite the clause, which probally won't happen...