Simtropolis 1000

[morriswalters 16]

Two people saying the same thing.  Must need to be clearer.  The planet would be a side benefit of using those assets. Players would be free to play together or not. The benefits of playing together, enhanced game play.  Benefits of size.  Room for different kinds of games involving cities.  People have always complained that they have wanted region play with others, this would give them that.  Unlimited city sizes.  Since the world is the field but not the game a lot of variety would be possible.

Just for laughs and giggles, here are some really far out ideas that have flown past me.  Globe spanning transportation nets.  Shipping lanes.  Maybe somebody would make a cruise line game with ships that go to coastal cities.  Maybe a continent given over to historical games.  How about watching a train going cross country.  But once perfected technology would be the only limit.

[croxis 150]

Doofen, you have experience programming a city builder. We havent. We would love if you dropped by sometime and just shared your experience on what worked, what didn't, etc would be wonderful.

Morris, we've actually implemented the essence of that feature, multiple people playing in the same region, or the same city. Every city will be its own process (to take advantage of any multicores). However the region is the upper limit for any game word. At some point a central lobby server can be implemented to those wishing to list regions open to the public. City sizes can't be unlimited though. There are limits to processing power which increase drastically with city size.

The problem with doing too much verity at once means that none of it will work very well. Second Life attempted to do just as you described, but ended up not doing that great at anything.

[Doofenshmirtz 0]

To croxis-

i will check out the Citymania site. I'm more good with general ideas than actual scripting though, as pretty much all of my experience has been with Game Maker, although i do use GML a lot more now than i used to. But certainly i'd be glad to drop by and check out your project.

To Morris-

Well actually i did always think multiplayer regional capacity (i.e say two mayors with two administrative regions connected geographically) would be a nice addition, but i just don't think you need a whole planet for that and would be glad having Simcity 4 size regions, which as i said, can technically be expanded beyond the default region size by editing the bitmaps that define the regions anyway.

[ScaryMonkey 0]

Don't know how many people are still reading this thread, but thought I'd post this here in case anyone is interested;  I've been putting together some ideas recently on my blog about a slightly different approach to a community game;  Namely, a game that is owned by community and funded by the community but that is developed by full-time, paid developers...  You can read the details about my take on things here:

http://blogs.simtropolis.com/nextgen/index.cfm/2009/10/11/The-Open-Source-Future--How-we-can-finally-get-the-game-we-want

I'd love to hear your comments and/or criticisms!

[croxis 150]

In short, not possible. The costs are astronomical.

A conservative estimate for wages of a single, first year software developer is about $60,000 USD. That is a lot to fund. Solo projects like Love and Infinity took a good couple of years to complete (or are still in process). That can be upwards of over $100,000 USD.

Funding is not the issue.  The talent exists and is willing. The problem is, as I mentioned, there are divided. Each project has its own vision of what it wants to make. If the resources can be consolidated then there is a chance of something to lift off the ground.

Right now at CityMania we're still in the prototyping phase. Thankfully we are all in general agreement about the features we want.  Looking at the OpenTTD project I noticed some differences compared to all the city projects up to this point. OTTD started by exactly copying TTD.  After that was completed only then did it add additional features.  That is something that maybe should be considered.  Looking to the future, such as gridless building, has to be kept in mind. Otherwise significant person hours will be wasted.

And I responded lengthy to your most recent post.

[ScaryMonkey 0]

Originally posted by: croxis

In short, not possible. The costs are astronomical.

A conservative estimate for wages of a single, first year software developer is about $60,000 USD. That is a lot to fund. Solo projects like Love and Infinity took a good couple of years to complete (or are still in process). That can be upwards of over $100,000 USD.quote>

Yes, I agreee, the costs are high.  In my initial post on the subject I made a ballpark estimate of about USD 20 million for a project of this magnitude.  That sounds like a lot, but then consider that something like  GTA4 cost upwards of 100 million to put together!  However, I don't think that "expensive" is the same thing as "impossible".  After all, commercial studios are able to put together budgets on this scale and recoup the cost through individual sales at the same price point (about $50 per user);  What I'm proposing is just reversing that process.  In fact, it's even more efficient this way because you don't have to worry about recouping expenses for marketing, distribution, advertising, etc. OR worry about making a profit.

Funding is not the issue.  The talent exists and is willing. The problem is, as I mentioned, there are divided. Each project has its own vision of what it wants to make. If the resources can be consolidated then there is a chance of something to lift off the ground.quote>

First of all, I have no idea how to make that happen, and while it might be nice for everyone to put aside their differences I haven't yet heard any practical ideas about how to make it a reality.  But even so, the problem there (as you said) is not so much lack of talent, but lack of proper organization;  And ironically the more people there are that want to help, the harder organizing them becomes.

And I responded lengthy to your most recent post. quote>

Thanks!  I responded to your response too

[croxis 150]

The trick is to have a set game design doc. This is where Urbs Urbis fell apart. This is where most projects fall apart because there are, at best, amateur game designers all attempting to push their vision. We are lucky in we have a game design... simcity 4. Then you do FOSS style development of tickets/bug reports and developers picking up what they wanna do.

[ScaryMonkey 0]

Originally posted by: croxis

The trick is to have a set game design doc. This is where Urbs Urbis fell apart. This is where most projects fall apart because there are, at best, amateur game designers all attempting to push their vision. We are lucky in we have a game design... simcity 4. Then you do FOSS style development of tickets/bug reports and developers picking up what they wanna do.quote>

Absolutely, a design doc is a basic necsessity, and exactly as you said, it's really hard to get a lot of amateur programmers to see eye-to-eye on what it should contain.  But SimCity 4 is useful as a design template only if you want to do a Sim City 4 clone... which is not what I'm proposing.

[croxis 150]

The reason why OTTD was successful is that they started with a clone. From there it expanded into what it is today. Linux as a whole does the same exact thing. All the popular distributions are almost always based on a previous system instead of reinventing everything.

[ScaryMonkey 0]

True, but I think the SC4 engine is limited in some fundamental ways that make it difficult to base a proper successor on;  Namely, the grid and the lack of 3D.  I don't think you can just add those things in, they require a fundamentally different structure.

[croxis 150]

SimCity 4 is a 3d engine actually. They did a very impressive trick to make it perform well. It can be replicated (I'll have to ask around to see if my engine of choice can do it, but I think so).

I have been told that sc4 grid tiles are finite state machines and this is how the simulation is run by cycling through each FSM. To make a non-grid system this will have to make a departure from all the FSM. A new simulation system can approximate the behaviors seen in SC4 however. S grid can sldo still be used with non-grid code. This can be done at the UI layer so the simulation underneath would not care if the user is confined to a grid or not. This will result in a very close approximation to SC4 experience with the architecture in place for moving forward.

If we had the SC4 source code you would be correct in that it could not just be added in. Luckily we don't. Everything will have to be added in so it can be designed from the ground up for the opportunity to do other things.

[morriswalters 16]

When you talk about the simulation,  do you see the simulation and the 3D engine as being separate entities or as inseparable? Couple of examples. 

When I think of utilities I think of a table based approach, with the table being updated when a utility user is added calculating usage against availablity and notifying other processes of that data, therefore having one routine that does only that, independent of what the player see's. 

Traffic would be the second example, when I think of traffic I think of a routine which assigns traffic values to intersections based on the surrounding area and the type of road.  I see intersections as conductors of traffic based on rules put in at design time.  The efficiency of the players design would determine how much traffic the intersection could handle.  The primary function of the traffic model is to prove the efficiency of the road system and to provide the baseline data for mass transit.  The player, unless playing in realtime, would only see a representational traffic model. Kind of a worse case model.

Neither of these ideas requires a 3d model to work.  So it seems that the game "engine" could be worked on seperately from the simulation.  That is of course after identifying areas that are inseparable such as roads..

[croxis 150]

That is exactly what we are doing with citymania. In CityMania the Simulation (server) and Graphics (Client) are separate. It is good design to do so. Also it lets different clients be made, say the main 3d client for most computers and a slimmer 2d client for lower end computers and netbooks. It also makes multiplayer a snap.

[townscape 0]

Someone could even make a Crysis type graphics engine for the more powerful computers.

An open source project can be infinite and never obsolete if there remains enough people to continue to develop it.

Graphics outdated?A new one appears that has a 2GB videocard requirement.(the future lies ahead)

Simulation can grow in detail with every Ghz going cheaper.

[croxis 150]

One of our developers, Tomkeus, has made a prototype of the construction layer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_9VprsYtyg

Sample program can be found here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9204.0

Basic idea, you draw out plans in vector format, but it is only built when you hit apply.

[Daryn07 0]

A while ago I started a little project after reading a thread some where called "Simtropolis 1000." If you read the thread than I need not explain what it was about - our own game. Since that day we have seen Cities XL / Cities Unlimited for the ancients - come into shape and take form in our community. There is even onther in the works called "Cities of World" which looks promising.

After learning a new programming language (Dark Basic Pro) I started work on "Simtropolis 1000" which I am now calling just plain and simple "Simtropolis™". But along with the media, design and what I'll call the 'playibility' I have found myself OVERWELMED. So here is what I am looking for followed by what you need to have or not have in order to 'help' out. You'll gain full rights to use and manipulate accordingly as well as domain over certain portions of development.

Programmers -

Need to be fluent in Dark Basic Pro (and pugins required - BlueGui 2, Unity, Dark AI, Ian M's Matrix Commands) and proficiently fluent but not equally fluent in LUA

Based on age, old enough and willing to commit certain periods of time to programming

Able to handle frustrating situations and complicated circumstances (disappointments can do this to a person)

Have a vision of what needs to be done before you try to do it

Must have an understanding of MMOSG (Massive - Multiplayer - Online - Simulation - Game)

Media-

A) 3D Media

You need to have 3dMax with the Panda Xporter in order to export to an .X file. I have been using 2009 version and to keep the same level of compatibility I would suggest you use the same, but do not require it.

Have an understanding of how your models will work in the game from contact with programmers.

Export your UVW templates for designers and must therefore be fluent in mapping models.

Aa) Designers

It is best that you use Photshop to import UVW templates from 3D Studio Max and apply model textures to them this way. A fluent understanding of photoshop is best. Beginners can be taught if proven to be fast learners by those who have desided to teach them.

You must be able to apply a 'look' to the game. If there are multiple designers, the vision must remain the same.

You must be able to leave personal opinions of work(s) and/or people at 'the door.'

B) Other Media

Ba) Sound and Music

Having been a musician for 17 years, I will advise you that my opinion is completely professional and that in no way do I or shall I belittle anyone on the basis of musical capability and/or talent. This is said now because I am a picky musician.

Must be able to colabirate with fellow members (designers/programmers and such) to 'enhance' the shaping 'feel' of the game. Music / sounds © (copyrighted) ARE NOT TO BE USED. In no way shape or form shall there be any exception unless the rights of music / sounds are owned explicitly by the music / sound designer(s) and by using their media - this notice binding - they agree to relinquish the rights to their media. But joining or contributing music / sounds, they agree they have read this post and have agreed to all terms listed. Writers of music / designers of sound who design 'on-site' media for "Simtropolis™" the game, retain the right to their media with the agreement that their media is partial to the game for which it was designed.

Bb) Web and Commercial

Need to be fluent in flash and HTML/PHP.

Able to supply original designs to programmers if needed.

Able to 'sell' to a group or community

YOU MUST ALSO-

Be able to be contacted on an instant messager. Each person must be able to contact every one at any time. There is no other option for this amount of communication.

There is so much more I am willing to share with Simtropolis about "Simtropolis™" but for now, this is what I need and what the game needs.

If you're interested or would like more information, please email me at DarynAlsup@Hotmail.com

If you took the time to read this I would like to thank you and if there is nothing you can do but wait for the screenys, please pass this thread around. I have worked for a while without anyones help, and now I turn to you all!

-Daryn

[DCMetro34 576]

I really wish I could help you, but that is a little advanced for my knowledge....are there any other jobs you might need, because I'd love to help......

[Daryn07 0]

DCMetro, why don't you email me and tell me a bit about what you would like to do or what you could help with. If you have a vision and swear to the commitment and you do offer something to the project, I don't see why there wouldn't be a desire to bring you on board. So to you and to everyone else, if there is something you would like to do I haven't listed email me regardless. Email me

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Last three posts merged from Simtropolis Related. 

[croxis 150]

 As a fellow city builder developer may I offer some suggestions.

* You will have a difficult time finding fellow developers for two big reasons. Darkbasic is not free and is somewhat obscure. I have never heard of it until now. I am not even sure if it is an object oriented language which is almost needed when making a game. If you would like an easy way to make a game then I suggest using a python/C engine or C#.

* Telling artists which modeling program, or graphics program, to use is not looked kindly upon. All that matters is that they are able to convert it into the format the game engine uses.

* Your request for help sounds like a job posting that doesn't give as much information as you think it does. From a programer's standpoint I would love to know what you have done so far, what still needs to be done, if you are using Model-View-Controller code style or some other paradigm, what you have done so far, classes, bugs, data structures, and above all else what you have done so far.

The difference between saying "You need to do this" as opposed to "I am working on something where i am doing this and this and that" can work wonders!

[Daryn07 0]

You're so right, come to think of it. I have been so pressed to get things done I have forgotten how to present myself. Let me gather some info and post in detail.

EDIT:

So to put it point blank - here it is:

Currently I have just finished all of the terriforming tools. They include custom commands that move the vertexes on the region's plain (NOTE - because each region segment is limited only by the cities radius - they are not pre determined as in simcity 4. So terraforming takes place only in your city when not designing a region which is being debugged) The tools include dig river, lake, stream (smaller river), build mountain, canyon, cliff and hill. The radius of the tool can be altered by specifying a value. It is possible to create standing water on multiple levels based on the dig radius. The radius is taken in to account when the water plane is created and shaded. This makes multiple levels of standing water possible. Creating rivers can only be done on a single altitude as of now. But I plan to apply the same method used for the standing water on rivers - based on vertex positions. Different shaders would be placed on the water object based on the angle of the water's route. (Consider if point a was on the top of a mountain and point b was at the bottom - this is no smooth flowing river)

I am also (point of asking help #2) creating a custom GUI using photoshop and a DBPro plugin. I am no media expert but hey - I'm tryin.

Transit -

The models I have created are simple and are drawn in dbpro as a single segment... you can draw lines in any direction and curve the transit tools (road, train ... so on) by holding shift. They are connected by limbs and when the click is released they are bound and saved as a single object (extending from intersection to intersection) in the users save directory. The position of the road can then be loaded from the menu with other data (still being designed) when the player chooses "Load Game." Currently there is an auto save feature that can be optionaly turned on or off. It saves every 5 min synced with the system clock. Of course this means there is also a user-save feature.

The transit AI uses Dark AI (DBPro plugin) and I am adapting it to work with true 3D space (since it is really 2D applible in a 3D zone) This is very bugged.

The script for city options and civics along with RCI demand is still being refined and is more robust than the one in SC4 - from which it is based.

I think that about sums up what I've done within the last couple of months, I'll provide screens when I think I can withstand the criticisim

-Daryn

[townscape 0]

Lately I have seen a lot of talking on the open source side of things and for now have noticed a lot of independent open source city simulators:

-Simtropolis

-CityMania

-Metropolis( still in theory )

-Cities of [the] World

When I think about the quantity of work that all these projects will need the issue of human resources arises in my mind.The community is big and willing to help, but this resource is almost limited and the more projects there are the less people working on one project. That gives us a smaller chance that ANY project will succeed.

This is a thing to worry about. If one project can get 20 volunteers to work, 2 projects will have to split them, 3 even more, 4… 5…etc.

Sure you can find more people outside the community, but will there be enough motivation for them? There is also the issue of community support:If there are too many choices, won’t that confuse the community?

I’m not sure that people will support any project if the number of developers is small. Also if most DO succeed I’m not sure you’ll get enough support to continue development, because different people will take different sides and that means the supporting community will get smaller.

Maybe find some common compromises in a Universal Design Document and unite all the project starters, their developers and the work already done. It is better to do this now when the work is fresh and easily modifiable, people are more open to this. Later the projects will separate themselves more and more.

First discuss all the details and debate the most serious ones, then plan the development and share work. If you don’t like something, argue your choice or work on it yourself as a plug-in or an option, the more choice the better. Most people have a very resembling idea on what are the base features of their project, and everyone should unite their efforts to at least create that common base. A single game with different options is better than many weak games. First develop a powerful base that everyone will like and then develop the other features.

I call every project to unite and create the best open source game ever.

[ScaryMonkey 0]

Good post townscape, I agree with almost everything you said;  In fact it's exactly for those reasons that I decided to start the Metropolis project (which, although open source too, is different than the others you mentioned in that it's not volunteer-developed).  The basis for my thinking is, what kind of contributions can the community make realistically?  As you said, there is a large community but only a limited number of people with the expertise to work on building a game;  And of those people there is an even smaller percentage who can contribute more than sporadically.  And then, as you said, even that small minority are not working together and are not (in my opinion) likely to start anytime soon.

So I think there's a better chance to succeed if you organize a project based on what people can actually contribute;  And for most people, that's money (After all, we all had 50 bucks to buy SC4).  With proper funding, there's no need to rely on volunteers to move the project forward, although of course you want to make it possible for them to contribute.  I think that's something that's more reasonable to ask of people;  Most fans aren't going to commit to working on a long-term, time-consuming project for free, even if they do have the skills;  But most people are willing to make a one-time contribution in order to get a new game (and in fact, I wouldn't even ask them to contribute straightaway, just to say they would); From that point they could be as much or as little involved as they want without impeding overall progress.

[DCMetro34 576]

Originally posted by: Daryn07

DCMetro, why don't you email me and tell me a bit about what you would like to do or what you could help with. If you have a vision and swear to the commitment and you do offer something to the project, I don't see why there wouldn't be a desire to bring you on board. So to you and to everyone else, if there is something you would like to do I haven't listed email me regardless. Email mequote>

Really sorry, I PMed you about this.....I didn't know where the thread went.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Hello, I would like a quick comparison between Simtropolis, Metropolis, Cities of World (Cuidades deL Mundo is Cities of the World), and CityMania. I want to know the following: Programming Language, rendering engine (2D, 3D, Isometric/Bimetric/Trimetric, DirectX, OpenGL, grid, spline, vector, bezier curves), zone/plop/combo, taxes, civics and satisfaction, utilities, how (easily) customizable is it?

I will start with Cities of World:

Programming Language: unknown

Rendering Engine: Full 3D, grid

Zoning: Yes

Taxes: Adjustable for Residential, Commercial, and Industrial but no classes

Civics and Satisfaction: Health and Culture fulfilled by Hospital, Police Station, Fire Station and School

Utilities: Electricity produced by Coal Power Plant and Wind Power Plant

Customizable: Buildings in 3DSMax submitted to developer(s) with texture

Appearance: Gritty, Realistic textures on extremely low polygon buildings (all cities look like ugly, industrial slums with no smokestacks)

[dariovillar 0]

I stand by allusions. My name is Dario and I am the project director of Cities of Wold.

Programming language: Blitz

Graphics Engine: Blitz 3d

Graphics, we are working on them, with respect to the effects of smoke from the chimneys of the industrial areas, we will soon see them at work, but it is the part that we are working.

We still have awhile to have the basis of programming and we can only begin to address the issue of mass tranportes, start with the bus lines and later, continue with the different types of tranport that we ask the community.

Regards, Dario.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Blitz, I only know C++ so I cannot help you on that part. OpenGL runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux so that would give the game a bigger potential audience. I might be able to make some basic buildings in a few months but I have to fix up my computer, learn how to properly use Blender, and find time when I do not have school.

[dariovillar 0]

The best way to help our game, is to download all the betas and updates that we had, as assets are programmers and graphic designers as well.

Graphic designers are moving slowly, but doing a good job.

Each week we update the game and the graphics are becoming more numerous, and it is a matter of time we have a complete set.

Regards, Dario.

[croxis 150]

 City Mania

Programming Language: Python/C++

Rendering Engine: Full 3D, freeform. Either Panda3d or Irrlicht

Zoning: Yes 

Taxes: In discussion

Civics and Satisfaction: In discussion, probably SC4 esk

Utilities: Power and other big utilities to be bought at region level

Customizable: Intention to be fully customizable by end user, both with code and graphics

Appearance:  No art direction at this time.

[dariovillar 0]

I hope that your project reaches far and that players have a simcity simcity open source.

Without wishing to be negative, I still believe that people work for a purpose and that the programming of a complete game takes many hours of work and people, over time, he wants compensation.

I have sent several mails to another component of citymania, Ne0Que, explaining my ideas and I see that you bear several months of work and you have not yet decided the game's graphics engine, which is why I think that every job must have a director and a single person take the last word.

You ought to clarify who is going to manage the project and who is going to dictate the rules and the way forward. Otherwise, I regret that the project will gradually disappear.

I wish you best of luck.

Regards, Dario.