Why "Cartoony" is not a valid argument

[LivingInThePast 364]

Many have stated that the new SimCity looks like a "cartoony kid's game". While I agree, it sounds like The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker reaction. However, while analyzing, there are some remarkable differences.

1) SCS does not have a clever art style.

2) TLOZ:TWW did have the familiar title style, with "The Legend of Zelda: [insert title here]"

3) TLOZ:TWW was a full Zelda quest, SCS is not a full SimCity

4) TLOZ:TWW was not outsourced to some other developer

5) Finally, TLOZ:TWW was still done under Miyamoto, while this SimCity is not under Wright.

Probably wasn't any real point, I just wanted to point that out before anyone jumps to conclusions.

[Goldfish4209 9]

Point being, SCS is "worse" than TLOZ:TWW. Wind Waker graphics weren't meant to be realistic, they were meant to be pastel colors and dark lines. Does SCS even have any particular style in it? As of now, I don't think so.

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Goldfish4209 Point being, SCS is "worse" than TLOZ:TWW. Wind Waker graphics weren't meant to be realistic, they were meant to be pastel colors and dark lines. Does SCS even have any particular style in it? As of now, I don't think so.quote>

Damn straight! That one alpha screenshot has shown us all we need to know! I propose we all sign online petitions and send EA strongly worded and poorly spelled emails, that will show 'em! Grr! Angry noises!

[zzsim 3]

I would like to point that, although I definetly prefer a realistic look, cartoony games are not always bad as long as they expand and remain true to the series. My example for this would be Roller Coaster Tycoon 3, which if any of you has ever played, looks extremely cartoony (heck, the menu looks like something out of a Saturday morning kid's show), but the game was still very good and expanded on the series with more rides and customization then ever before. There were some bugs and performance issues, and ofcourse some backlash for the style, but in the end it was still an enjoyable game. I hope atleast that we can be open minded enough to give the developers a chance to show off more of their work before automatically assuming this game will be terrible because the first screenshot was not up to par.

[mayormommy 8]

Sometimes stylized pictures can be quite nice, as with the PS2 game Okami, where everything looks like Japanese brush work. While the screenshot we have shows a particular style of architecture, I wouldn't go so far as to say the pictures themselves have a style. It is possible interesting game play could make up for this, combined with future customization options.

[croxis 150]

Do we know if the screenshot is from a finalized graphics engine, or one under development? Look at ANY game which has released shots from a prototype or in-development graphics engine and compare it to the final product. You will find in almost every case the graphics look bad and cartoony.

[Gman55 0]

A rule of thumb: long-time fans get pissed if the next installment of their favorite videogame has a "cartoony" art style.

Example 1: Team Fortress 2. It looks like The Incredibles meets 1960s action comics. I happen to think the art direction rocks, but many long-time Team Fortress fans think it's stupid, a way to appeal to console "kiddies" and what not.

Example 2: Civilization IV. I read a few complaints from the Civ old timers that the new graphics were silly and demeaned such a prestigious "Ivy Legue" series.

Example 3: See SimTrop's SimCity 5 forum

[Ntq€310 1]

what dose simcity have to do with Zelda Windwaker? and furthermore most simcity fans say that screenshot, was terrible, over a 100,000 people and growing who hate it! and im one of them!

[Jasoncw 11,933]

None of the Sim City games are realistic.  Casually looking at the game, you might not notice, but look how oversized and chunky the Maxis buildings are.  Look at how colorful the graphics are.  SC4 has a very very poor and unrealistic sense of scale, on all levels.

And I don't think SCS will be realistic either, but if we can modd it, it will give us a great opportunity to make realistic buildings.

[patriots_1228 51]

jason-yea but SC4 was 10x more realistic than SCS

[Goldfish4209 9]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 jason-yea but SC4 was 10x more realistic than SCSquote>

True. If they're going to make the graphics anywhere near the realism of SC4, they're going to have to work for a while. Obviously, that's not what they're looking for, but I think they're going to improve the graphics in one of two directions eventually, either making it uber realistic or cartoonish. I don't really see any happy medium here.

[Pixelrage 34]

SC4 looks pretty realistic to me..

[offgreen 1]

When the game is based on realism it needs realistic graphics. How is there an argument?

[jcabassa 20]

Originally posted by: JanYpe

Originally posted by: Goldfish4209 Point being, SCS is "worse" than TLOZ:TWW. Wind Waker graphics weren't meant to be realistic, they were meant to be pastel colors and dark lines. Does SCS even have any particular style in it? As of now, I don't think so.quote>

Damn straight! That one alpha screenshot has shown us all we need to know! I propose we all sign online petitions and send EA strongly worded and poorly spelled emails, that will show 'em! Grr! Angry noises!quote>

 

Your sarcasm is needless and not at all humorous. What else do you propose that we do pal? I'm more than willing to lynch a couple of EA employees!

[JanYpe 17]

Your sarcasm is needless and not at all humorous. quote>

Just using my freedom of speech buddy.

The sole released screenshot did look a bit different, but you can't base anything on one picture.

[ardecila 124]

First of all, from the ONE screenshot you've seen, you can make absolutely NO judgement. That shot has ONE type of building in various positions, as well as one ferris wheel and a couple of tents. Twisted Mill will sell 0 games if that is the entire building set. Wait for better shots to come out before dismissing the game.

----------------------------------------

Also, look... the game market right now demands a transition from orthographic to full-3d. Even SC4 took a risk by choosing not to do 3d, and this was 4 years ago. I mean, seriously, think about it. The single BIGGEST requested feature in a SimCity game is full-3d. Streets of SC tried to do a little bit of that, and AFAIK, it sold fairly well because people WANTED that.

However; computers today are still not powerful enough that we could create a 3d game and insert stuff on par with our high-quality BAT models. Computers aren't powerful enough, so you make a bit of a tradeoff in building quality and you start simplifying your building models and using textures to represent much of the detail. As zzsim brought up, Roller Coaster Tycoon did the same thing by transitioning to 3d, and the game succeeded wildly. AND - before bringing up racing games or other games that feature highly-detailed cities - remember that the cities in those games don't need to be flexible because you can't edit them.  That's a whole different ballgame.

Don't forget that computer power is always increasing. Right now, PS3/360 games are near the forefront of graphics quality, and there's some very promising stuff there. I see no reason why SimCity 6 couldn't feature more detailed buildings. OR, if the bones of Societies are strong (meaning that the program can handle it) we might even be able to create our own realistic buildings, available to the people who have powerful-enough computers to run the game with such things.

Lastly, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  The fact that this game is full-3d allows for so many more possibilities.  Since buildings theoretically can be rotated to any angle, the game may allow curved or diagonal streets.  Many camera angles would become possible, allowing for street-level shots or skyline shots that are so lacking in the SC4 City Journals.  Terrain wouldn't have to be restricted to a rigid grid, allowing for real curved coastlines and land.  Bridges could be laid at any angle.  There are so many positives that could come out of this, it amazes me that people are complaining.

[Micah 16]

Amen to that, ardecila! People wanted 3D and here it is! 3D makes the possibilities endless!

[KnowitallSim 1]

I like Okami and The Wind Waker, great games and beautiful graphics

[6underground 11]

I'm just wondering if the current surge in individuals stating that they are happy to sacrifice model quality for full 3D, didn't do the same for City Life?

THAT after all, was in 3d, enabled user content and required users to water down their models. Is this upsurge because it has "Simcity" in the title, perhaps?

I amy be overly cynical, but from my perspective that's what it appears so far.

One game that seems much akin to Simcity Societies  is thrown to the four winds for being  a  "sub-par" game in contrast with SC4. Yet, because it has "Simcity" in its title, requires a completely different response.

I will base my opinion on the final product, not the title it has.

[Micah 16]

^ Same here. I'm not wanting to sacrifice model quality either. My point is that there's got to be a way to have 3D and great realism in one; my hope is not in Tilted Mill, but in the custom content by the users.

[patriots_1228 51]

some of us wanted 3d, but after seeing 3d, id rather play in whatever "D" sc4 was.

[Spinmaster 75]

If I was a sorcerer...

I want:

1) 100% true-to-life graphics

2) A truly 3D experience

3) A completely realistic simulation

4) Lots of busy busy people and objects to see it all spring to life

...

...

285) A massive supercomputer

... all for under $50.

But alas, I am no sorcerer. So, methinks and understands some sacrifices must be made... it is, after all, a game. A sophisticated urban simulation, realistic enough that even people who plan and build cities for a real-world living actually enjoy spending hours doing the same thing for fun, sure... but still a game, nonetheless. It's interesting RCT3 has been called in for comparison by a few folks. And just how well did a massive dream park with even just a dozen or so wild rides run on even the latest and greatest greased-lightning PC?

[Jasoncw 11,933]

I also posted this on the TM forums, but I figure I should post it here too.

This is a low poygon model that I made earlier today.

The closeup doesn't look amazing, but the one to the left looks just fine in my opinion.  To the right is what it would look like in Sim City.  I would prefer the 3d one.

I'm new at this, and I only worked on it for a couple of hours total.  I'm confident that we will learn enough tricks to make buildings look nice regardless of the polygon count. 

Sc4 is not realistic, and it wasn't really trying to be realistic.  It's very stylized.  If you want to see what realistic looks like, look on local live.  Look at how thin the window frames are.  How grey everything is.  How you can't see most of the details on the building from that distance. 

You can see those details in SC4 because they're exaggerated.  Look at how tall the people are in SC4.  Look at how big the lamp posts are.  Look at how messed up the scale is.  Look how colorful it is.  It's not a realistic game.

And I don't think SCS will be truly realistic either, which I'm fine with.  But if we can modd it, we have the ability to replace all of their buildings with 100% accurately scaled and textured buildings.  In SC4, anything under .2 meters will barely show up.  Window frames are generally modeled to be that thick.   .2 meters is approximatey one pixel at the closest zoom in sim city.  Get out a ruler and measure out 20 centimeters, and say that space should be represented by only one pixel.

So to make a long story short, I don't think the game being 3d will be a problem. 

[Goldfish4209 9]

Originally posted by: ardecila First of all, from the ONE screenshot you've seen, you can make absolutely NO judgement. That shot has ONE type of building in various positions, as well as one ferris wheel and a couple of tents. Twisted Mill will sell 0 games if that is the entire building set. Wait for better shots to come out before dismissing the game.

----------------------------------------

Also, look... the game market right now demands a transition from orthographic to full-3d. Even SC4 took a risk by choosing not to do 3d, and this was 4 years ago. I mean, seriously, think about it. The single BIGGEST requested feature in a SimCity game is full-3d. Streets of SC tried to do a little bit of that, and AFAIK, it sold fairly well because people WANTED that.

However; computers today are still not powerful enough that we could create a 3d game and insert stuff on par with our high-quality BAT models. Computers aren't powerful enough, so you make a bit of a tradeoff in building quality and you start simplifying your building models and using textures to represent much of the detail. As zzsim brought up, Roller Coaster Tycoon did the same thing by transitioning to 3d, and the game succeeded wildly. AND - before bringing up racing games or other games that feature highly-detailed cities - remember that the cities in those games don't need to be flexible because you can't edit them.  That's a whole different ballgame.

Don't forget that computer power is always increasing. Right now, PS3/360 games are near the forefront of graphics quality, and there's some very promising stuff there. I see no reason why SimCity 6 couldn't feature more detailed buildings. OR, if the bones of Societies are strong (meaning that the program can handle it) we might even be able to create our own realistic buildings, available to the people who have powerful-enough computers to run the game with such things.

Lastly, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  The fact that this game is full-3d allows for so many more possibilities.  Since buildings theoretically can be rotated to any angle, the game may allow curved or diagonal streets.  Many camera angles would become possible, allowing for street-level shots or skyline shots that are so lacking in the SC4 City Journals.  Terrain wouldn't have to be restricted to a rigid grid, allowing for real curved coastlines and land.  Bridges could be laid at any angle.  There are so many positives that could come out of this, it amazes me that people are complaining.quote>

I thought they've already demonstrated that they're still using a grid.

[Jasoncw 11,933]

Perhaps, but maybe not.

[lost0890 0]

The buildings and streets still look like they are on a grid in the screen shots...

[zzsim 3]

 

As zzsim brought up, Roller Coaster Tycoon did the same thing by transitioning to 3d, and the game succeeded wildly.quote>

My point was that RCT3 succeeded inspite of its cartoony style because it did genuenly expand on the series, keeping the feautures from the previous games, and adding new features.  Style is not too important as long (to me atleast) as the game improves upon what made its predessors great, which is why I still enjoyed RCT3 despite the fact that I felt like my park was in somes kid's cartoon show.

Now this game might too be good inspite of its style, but not matter what (barring a complete do over), the game will not be good in the same way as past SC games were.  As far as I'm concerced, I will give this game a shot if its new style of gameplay is deep and interesting, but it will never replace SC4 as my true city simulator.

[sc4melbourne 0]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw None of the Sim City games are realistic.  Casually looking at the game, you might not notice, but look how oversized and chunky the Maxis buildings are.  Look at how colorful the graphics are.  SC4 has a very very poor and unrealistic sense of scale, on all levels.

And I don't think SCS will be realistic either, but if we can modd it, it will give us a great opportunity to make realistic buildings.quote>

 

It is true that the Maxis buildings have relatively poor scale and are somewhat chunky. But the talented team of BATters that we have has helped to introduce a lot more realism in the game. So, I think the best way to compare SCS and SC4 is to compare the original buildings in the game.

It seems to be the overwhelming opinion that SCS original buildings are worse than SC4 buildings. So there has been a step backwards, despite 3D. Furthermore, nobody knows the ability of SCS for custom content. There are no signs that there will be stunning customisation available, and given the relatively quick treatment of important aspects of the game such as transport, it seems unlikely that there will be much customisation available for transport.

SC fans have always liked creating there own content, but we need a flexible game to do that with. SCS is not turning out to look promising at all. And from what is being said elsewhere, it looks like most of our talented BATters and Modders will be sticking with SC4.

[Jasoncw 11,933]

When it comes down to it, realistically modeled and textured buildings look really drab and lifeless in the game.  All of the amazing buildings I've seen on the STEX are a lot more realistic than the original buildings, but they're still not very realistic.  If you took those exact buildings, with the same modeling and texturing, and put them into a 3d game (lets ignore computer resources) they wouldn't look very good.  I know for sure that mine wouldn't.

Most of the buildings shown in the screenshots are pretty nasty looking, it does depend on whether or not we can modd it, unfortunately.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: JanYpe

Originally posted by: Goldfish4209 Point being, SCS is "worse" than TLOZ:TWW. Wind Waker graphics weren't meant to be realistic, they were meant to be pastel colors and dark lines. Does SCS even have any particular style in it? As of now, I don't think so.quote>

Damn straight! That one alpha screenshot has shown us all we need to know! I propose we all sign online petitions and send EA strongly worded and poorly spelled emails, that will show 'em! Grr! Angry noises!quote>

LOL - who's side was that on?

Honestly, the graphics are the least of my concerns with the game.  Graphics can be redone a lot easier than rewriting the game.