Using Gmax, advice, tips and feedback.

[mikeyb66 30]

With the current game models we know that they are low-polygon with the image of a high-detail textured model projected onto them. Will we need to make the low-polygon models as well as the high polygon models and will we need to slice the model for the different texture files.

[MaxisBrian 6]

Okay guys, a couple of things to keep in mind:

Firstly, many of you are jumping ahead and starting on texture before you have arrived at a good solid model. This will only serve to distract you from ending up with a really fine building in the end. The way I evaluate all of the building submissions from the art team here, and also incoming from the outside art houses we use, is to first sign off on a flat-shaded model (no texture; just a solid gray for the building, and maybe a blue for any window glass). The integrity of the model is very important, and must first hold water without the benefit of textures.

Now we are just getting started here, and if you want these things to really shine, let's slow it down a bit and take it step by step. I know you will end up with some great looking buildings in time.

Okay, so what we're looking at for the moment is walls. Go ahead and knock out all the textures you may have worked into your geometry and concentrate on the forms. What you want to have by this time is four walls with openings for windows and doors, though I started to go into how you might make windows too. It may be a good idea to keep it simple and just make a single story house to begin with, as the same principals will ultimately apply to even stage 8 buildings. Master the finite number of techniques and you'll be in good shape to make pretty much any of the more standard house/building types.

Secondly, there are lots of questions about the high-poly/low-poly issue, and speculation about what actually goes into the game. Some of you have a good understanding of how it works. Let me just say that you shouldn't worry too much about this, and the exporter component of the BAT will take your final textured model through an automated process that will yield game-ready DATs. You will have no poly budget as you create your models, as the lighting/camera rig in BAT will take 20 snapshots of it during the exporting process, projecting the renders onto what we call the LOD shells. The LOD shells are the actual geometry that will go into the game, and you will likely need to build anywhere from one to three of these but this hasn

[oppie 487]

Windows; i've been wondering how you guys create those for a long time. I always just 'booleaned' them out (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about), and then put a plane with a glass texture into it (using the 'frame' technique you described earlier). So please tell us how to make cool windows; that's the main problem I had while creating my Train Station building (you might have seen it in the gmax testing thread).

Thank you for your time, and thank you for your advice. I really appreciate it that Maxis gives away some of its modeling secrets to the fans!

[MaxisBrian 6]

I hear you.

On to windows in more detail, then (but I'll try to re-visit any wall problems you might still be having later on). The main point for the walls, at least with the technique I prefer, is that you want to work with extruded splines. Oh, and one important thing I forgot to mention is that you can add, in addition to deleting, any window/door openings from walls built in this way by copying another window and moving it while you are in spline editing mode. This is one of the great advantages of extruded splines for walls. Say you want to add a floor to the building... you go back down the stack to Editable Spline(Extrude should be on top of Editable Spline) and move the top of the wall up 4 meters, then Shift/select/moveup the top row of windows (which copies the selection within the spline). Then when you snap back on the Extrude you see the new row of windows! This is truly indespensible if you ask me.

Someone mentioned Booleans, but I have to say we NEVER use this feature, though I know it is widely used out there. You might get okay looking results but when you go in to edit booleaned geometry it will be a mess.

Okay, okay... back to windows! Try this technique I started to go into awhile back:

1. Turn on 3D Snap, and in the Front view snap a rectangle into the bottom left window opening in the front wall. In the Mesh Settings rollout, check Generate Mapping Coordinates and Display mesh, while setting Thickness at .2, Sides to 4, and Angle to 45. You should see what looks like a window frame. Now colapse the rectangle to a renderable spline, and slap an Edit Mesh modifier on it. What you now have is what looks and behaves like a frame with 32 polys but is effectively as a spline with 4 vertices (when you go to Instance 600 of these things, you'll be happy about that). Now, click the Edit in the stack, with Polygon selected and then select all polys. Go all the way down the rollout and click Clear All in the Smoothing Groups area. Notice that the frame now appears hard-faceted and no longer smoothed. Also, the renderable spline that this is will show up in the renders, while they wouldn't without the Edit Mesh modifier in the stack. Don't ask me why this is; it is not the case in 3DS Max.

Now move the window frame back into the window opening so that the front face is about .1 or .2 meters recessed from the front of the wall. Then make a copy of the frame, call it Glass_01, and delete the Edit Mesh modifier from the stack. Now slap a UVW map on it and notice that is becomes a solid. Center it in the frame and you've got your glass. That's enough to give you a very basic window, and you can now array it along the first floor, then array the resulting row up into however many floors there are going up. Make sure to Instance the windows so that changes made to one will affect all of the others. You may want to later make some smaller windows, in which case you would perhaps start with a new COPY (not Instance) of one of the first types, alter it, then start Instancing that as much as you like.

If you want to give the window more complexity, like adding mullions, you can get a lot of milage out of renderable splines. Just create a grid of mullions and center it in the glass quad. You can then make edits from there. You might start out with the thickness at .1 meter, but remember to keep the sides at 4. I like to keep the Angle at 0 for mullions, but you could go either way.

Show me what you end up with!

[cerulean 15]

So is the purpose of creating windows this way to keep the polygon count down?

 

Im more used to modelling for stills, so ive never been concerned with polygon count, but thats a cool method.

[DarkMatter 21]

" Let me just say that you shouldn't worry too much about this, and the exporter component of the BAT will take your final textured model through an automated process that will yield game-ready DATs. You will have no poly budget as you create your models, as the lighting/camera rig in BAT will take 20 snapshots of it during the exporting process, projecting the renders onto what we call the LOD shells."

 

Sorry to ask these questions, but I'm always wanting to push ahead. Maybe you don't have the answer to this yet. Will the BAT have a rendering engine capable of rendering things with the same quality as 3DSMax? Something I've noticed about your existing building models is they have very good shadow density and detail (using shadow maps, if I remember something MaxisMike told me), and all seem to have astronomical polygon density. High-resolution shadow maps with high-density polygonal models usually make 3DSMax take a very long time to render. Anyway....will your BAT produce rendered skin textures that compare to the buildings you have made already? Or will those of us who wish to create high-quality buildings need to take alternate routes to produce the same quality?

[oppie 487]

I've followed your tutorial so far, and I must say that I've learned quite some valuable things doing so. I never knew that just using the 3d snap could make work so much easier. Also, your method of creating windows is so much easier than my 'boolean' one. Thank you for the detailed information, and please go on with the tutorial. Like, how should we create realistic doors, and what details are there to add to the windows (like reflections, curtains; basically, how do you make each window look unique?)

And another question; how do I 'weld' the wall corners when I put two of them together?

[MaxisBrian 6]

Firstly, our idea/hope with BAT is to give you the same lighting/camera rig that we use here, so the shadow characteristics would be the same as what you see in SC4. I can't see any reason so far that you should expect any less quality in renders or shadows, so if all goes according to plan, you would only need to worry about creating the model, textures, and lastly anywhere from one to three LOD shells.

Secondly, in response to window/door modeling techniques, I favor the renderable spline method for a couple of reasons. Yes, it helps keep the file size down, and though you have no budget here it is always a good thing to model as efficiently as you can. I just finished modeling an enormous landmark with hundreds of instanced windows, etc, and even with the most efficient techniques it got to be very slow going towards the end, even with the beefy machines we are using. So there's file size, then perhaps more important is ease of editing the model. Really so much of this comes down to personal preference, and I wouldn't want to suggest that this is the way you have to go about it, but just my personal favored technique.

If you think you will be making lots of buildings with BAT, start making a library of windows, doors, roof junk, lighting fixtures, etc. Whenever we move on to another building we raid other buildings for parts. Here is another compelling case for good naming conventions for all parts, as you can merge in whatever you want from other files (I haven't varified this capability yet in Gmax though). Easy enough to check, but I'm not at my station at the moment or I'd check it out now.

I have to run right now, but I'll check in later and talk about doors and other stuff...

[MaxisBrian 6]

Doors:

Pretty simple to do any sort of door. You might start with the same spline routine we discussed for the windows, or go with mesh modeling from a box. Let's say you want to make a door with glass, like a French door (or "Freedom" Door if you prefer), you could do a rectangle within a rectangle and attach them, then extrude to around .1 meter, then pop a mullion grid inside (renderable spline grid) and a rectangle (with planar UVW map modifier) in the opening for glass. Then a sphere for the doorknob, but knock down the default section count from 32 to something like 8, and you might also make a small quad for the doorknob plate. You're getting close to the point where these details won't show up so much in the closest zoom 5, but it'll catch a couple of pixels and show up ambient. You can leave out the keyhole.

You could also start with a box about 3 meters high, 1.3 meters wide and .1 meter thick, and set the number of sections so you can extrude in/out door panels. Collapse to Editable Mesh, go into Sub-object/Polygon and shape the panels (if you are going for a solid, paneled door). Center it in the wall so the recess will catch shadows, about .2 meters in to the wall or so should do it. I like to put a lentil above doors and windows for extra detail. A simple box for a windowsill is also a good idea. The sill could be about .1 meter high, and exceed the extents of the opening by .1m on either side. They should also protrude about .1m from the wall. Lentils (above the openings) same rules, except they are around .3m high.

[oppie 487]

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On 9/26/2003 3:50:29 PM MaxisBrian wrote:

You can leave out the keyhole.

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How about the dust on the doorknob?

Now that I've got a nice looking door (I used the paneling method, and now it looks quite nice), how about connecting the 'wall pieces' together? I've now got some of them (one side wall, one for the second floor), and I want them to connect. I already put them into position, but especially the wall corner looks a little messed up (where the two intersect). I already tried using the edit mesh modifier and 'weld' the vertexes, but that's a long and tedious job; I'm sure you Maxoids have yet another easy solution for that one

[MaxisBrian 6]

Ah, well I have to ask why you would want to weld the walls together? We just keep them separate but positioned properly. There's really no advantage to connecting them, and in fact it serves more as a hinderence when you go in to make changes to the building, apply UVW maps, etc.

[oppie 487]

Hmm, but take a look at Rybolton's screenshot earlier in this thread; the wall sides look a little messed up (at the corners). Can this be solved by proper positioning? Now I'm just putting them approximately in the right position. Is there a way to really place them exactly where they have to be?

[MaxisBrian 6]

This could be a mapping/texturing issue we're seeing there. Try this:

take your four walls and orient them in such a way that they overlap/intersect one another in the corners, but hold off on attaching/welding them. Then select all at the same time, go into the Modify Panel and put a UVW Map modifier on the entire selection. Set the UVW map to Box, and set the dimensions to something like 4x4x4 (you can scale for whatever material you end up using, but you'll likely want to keep XY and Z the same numbers). If you have a standard wall material, like bricks, apply it and adjust UV overall scale to match. This should end up looking about right, though I must say I am not entirely certain I can picture the problems you are having. Do you want to post a screen shot?

[oppie 487]

Ah, the UVW mapping did the trick. Thanks Brian! Although I will hold off texturing untill the building is done, as you advised earlier. But at least I don't have to worry about welding corners anymore.

[MaxisBrian 6]

Good, I'm glad that helped. You're on the right track.

So at this point you should have basic walls, windows and doors. You have several options for roof types, depending upon what sort of building you are doing, single-story house or multi-story complex, residential or commercial, etc. For residential (single-family homes) you could go for a "gabled" or "hipped" roof, and I'll walk you through a simple technique for a gabled roof:

For a gabled roof on a basic, rectangular house, you could just go into Top or User view and draw a box right on top of the walls (with 3D Snap turned on), snapping the outside corners to the corners of the walls. Name the box "Roof" then adjust the height to about .2 meters and set the Length (or Width, depending on orientation) segments to 2. Now increase both the width and the length of the box by about .4 to .6 meters. You'll see the "eves" now extending beyond the walls. You can now apply an Edit Mesh modifier to the box, or collapse to Editable Mesh, and go into Sub-object/Vertex. Now select the vertices at either end of the center line segment and move them up however far you like for a quick gabled roof shape.

You can fill the resulting triangular openings under the gables with a triangle, or something I like to do is go into the corresponding wall and pull up the center to meet the top of the roof gable. To do this you go back down the wall's modifier stack to Line/Segment, and in the Geometry rollout select Break, then click on the wall spline along the top middle. This inserts a new vertex in the wall, where you can then pull the point up to meet the underside of the roof gable. Just make sure the new vertex remains flush with the others, or you'll see problems when you turn the Extrude back on.

This is good for a simple roof, but I like to go in with more details/enhancements. For instance, I like to snap a renderable spline along the highest edge of the roof to give it some additional delineation. You could make the thickness something like .1 meters. Then we always like to make a couple of pipes stick out of the roof, and a chimney perhaps. For additional detail, actually create simple quads (spline rectangles w/UVW maps applied to make them solid) for the flashing around things that stick out of the roof surface. You just need to position them slightly above the roof plane, centered under the roof element and angled in alignment with the roof. For a chimney, start with a box, collapse to editable mesh and just start extruding faces upward in sub-object/polygon. Then when you get to the top, extrude the last poly to just .001 or something like that, scale it down a bit, and then negative extrude the opening where the smoke comes out.

There are lots of enhancements like these you can do, like gutters and downspouts for example.

Try these and I'll check in later on.

[Buggi 684]

 

A work in progress. So far so good.

Any tips on adding some little details? Like handrails? I have one, red, at the top of my model, it's the vertical struts that would take a week to do as they're be quite a few of them.

 

And cerulean, that's a very sweet looking house man!

[+Guest]

Make the pyramid part of it more interesting. Right now, it's just.... a pyramid......

[Buggi 684]

LOL

 

Very true. And I plan to. Remember the Braun Llama Dome? I'm modeling it from that.

 

Anyway, back to my splines and meshes

[+Guest]

It looks kinda like the space needle. At first thats what I thought it was lol.

[umabatha 2]

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On 9/28/2003 4:18:19 PM Buggi wrote:

LOL

Very true. And I plan to. Remember the Braun Llama Dome? I'm modeling it from that.

Anyway, back to my splines and meshes

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I did a model based on the Llama Dome I guess I am not the only one who is nostalgic. I posted a picture of it under the gMax testing thread.I am looking forward to seeing your finished interpretation of it so far it looks good.I was having some trouble with the pyramid part it just never looked right to me so I settled on a different design.Llama Dome

[DuskTrooper 314]

I can't wait for the BAT!  Cool building!

[MaxisBrian 6]

Buggi put in a request (to a Maxis producer, who passed it along to me) for tips concerning his arcology building above, and I have sent them back through that channel, but then it occured to me that I should share the same with the rest of you who might be interested:

I assume he would like to have balusters arrayed under (what looks like) a red circular railing? If this is the case, he would want to creat one, and it could be a renderable spline, and then set the pivot point to 0,0,0 in world space, then Instance/Array however many he wants around the railing. He should click Rotate under Totals, and enter 360 in the Z field, then check Instance under Type of Object, then determine the number he wants produced under Count in Array Dimensions. Should be in User view at the time he hits OK.

This technique will apply to many of the other features he would want to work into a building oriented in this way, and as for details he would want to place in/on more squared off areas, the thing to do is create one set along one wall, then Instance or Copy the whole set, group the set prior to moving it, set the pivot point of the set to 0,0,0, and the rotate/Instance or rotate/copy the set around the pivot point to end up with the same features on all sides. Here it is important to make sure the pivot point setting remains on "Use Pivot Point Center". Otherwise it will not do what you'd expect when copying the set.

Stairs and other features I don't know if I can comment too much on without knowing more about what he has in mind, but basic stairs could be made from spline profiles and extruded about 1 1/2 to 2 meters or so. then you make railings with renderable splines, snapping lines with 3D Snap turned on. You snap the line to the steps and then raise them up a meter, insert the vertical rails between the steps and the angled railing.

Hope this helps.

(I know it is probably a simple matter to insert screen shots, but I can't seem to figure it out in this case)

[MaxisBrian 6]

... and one more tip, about circular stairs:

I have had good luck using the radial array tool for this, and you can even have circular stairs going up a cone. It is something one has to mess around with quite a bit before getting the hang of it, but I think it is the way to go. The Array tool is very, very useful for so many things we do, and it is worth spending time with to get to know its capabilities.

[Buggi 684]

You make it sound so official @@;;

Thanks for the tip though!!! @_@;;;;

Awesomeness! I'll have to try it when I get home. (at work now

[GouRou 2]

MaxisBrian, to insert an image, either click the HTML checkbox and enter the <IMG SRC="url"> or if in IE with rich text on, click the Image icon above in the reply box, 5th from the right on the bottom row, the rest should be self explanatory, rules are 800x600 or below, other than that, you should be all set.  

[oppie 487]

Thanks for the instructions again Brian. But, as you would probably expect, I got another question for you. How do I create realistic looking steel framework? I've been trying to do something with renderable splines, but it always ended up looking too 'blocky'. As you've worked with steel framework a lot (like on the RH bridges), I'm almost sure you've got a method for creating convincing ones. So share with us your secrets, so to speak.

[GouRou 2]

I just read through this, so I get to play catch up, MaxisBrian mentioned a library of objects. I have been doing this for a few years now and have a HUGE library of just such objects, I might make something interesting and simply save it out as another object, use it later. I have never, to my knowledge textured as I built a mesh, unless it's to build an object to a texture, which I have done only rarely for Morrowind, never for buildings.

For those that are having trouble with splines, practice, because building something by mesh is harder. I use Nurbs more often than not, but I have just found out that GMax doesnt come with them, so I guess I need to ask a question of MaxisBrian.. will the bat support 3DS Max scenes? or will we have to export to 3ds, then go through gmax to export to dat?

Good luck all, I know I for one cant wait for the BAT!

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Oppie,

 >>

In response to your question about how you might create steel framework, here is an area where I'd say anything goes and I wouldn't be inclined to push any particular technique. I just do it with mesh modeling for the main structures, like I-beams and such, and maybe renderable splines for any cables, piping, conduit, etc. that you might work in as incidental details. For I-beams, you would want to extrude a spline or shape, then make a bunch of connector plates about .05 meters thick, and place domehead bolts/rivets on top of the connector plates. For these you can create a sphere, then knock down the segments to around 10, and with Chop checked enter .5 into Hemisphere.

 >>

Generally, to pull of convincing frameworks like bridge structures, etc, I think it is important to look at where one piece of geometry intersects another, and make sure to work in an intermediate piece that visually joins them. For example, if you have drop-cables on a suspension bridge put a flange or footing where the cable meets the deck. Where you have the bridge tower rising up off the road deck, make sure there is a visual transition where they meet. Even down to the railings, make sure there is a boss or flange connecting every piece. It will show in zoom 5, just like the actual geometry for the domehead rivets, and really pump up your model. The one thing you want to avoid here, though is weighing down your file with 6,000 railing flanges that each have 100 polys. Keep the overhead down on little details you plan to Instance or Copy 6,000 times in one file. Sure, you can have a huge file if you like, but things will start to chug at some point if you

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Here's some steel truss work another artist here did for a Rush Hour bridge. There are really any number of ways you could do the same thing. Texturing becomes critical with stuff like this though, and I'll get into that before long.

 

-Brian

[DuskTrooper 314]

How do you make the valleys in a roof?