Using Gmax, advice, tips and feedback.

[joerg 278]

Wow this is great some real help from maxis. I cant wait to see more of you around here maxisbrian.

 

Well i havent kept up with the news on the building Architect for awhile sense i heard it would be a gmax based tool but i guess i am just going to have to learn. But first i have a few questions. It sound like you guys are going to make this a standalone version of Gmax unlike the simple convertors for games like trainz. So i was wondering if you could tell us alittle more about the changes you guys might make to Gmax to make it more user friendly. Personally i like to 3d model in Autodesk Inventor and Solid works becuase it is mostly sketch based modeling and not a bunch of point and mesh editing. But niether program exports to 3ds so i am stuck learning Gmax.

 

 

[MaxisBrian 6]

You would basically need to learn gmax if you want to use BAT, as our tool will closely emulate gmax. We may cut away some of the features we know no one will use, and will enhance/tune some of the inherent gmax features to better suit our purposes, but like I mentioned early on, any time you spend now familiarizing yourself with gmax will be time very well spent in preparation for BAT.

 

I know it is a complicated and multi-layered program, and that may just have to be the trade-off if you want to have something capable of creating buildings of a similar level of detail and complexity you see in the game at this point. If you used the BAT from 3K, you were working with something that let you create things that looked somewhat plausible in the 3K world, but we like to think we upped the quality ante with SC4 and the tool will need to gain complexity in order to keep everything more or less in the same world visually. 

 

-MaxisBrian

[GouRou 2]

"emulate gmax", interesting two words you put there, I think it also stays many question I had, thank you MaxisBrian

[joerg 278]

A quick suggestion then Brian is that in Gmax there are 2 thigns that really mess me up. The first is the coordinate system and how you make meshs based on it this really messes me up when i get to working with negative numbers and stuff. So maybe if there were away to make all the coordinates positive and make it to where we dont need to make objects form the middle out like in gmax. And the last thing is the texture system. I simply can not stand the way they have us texure things in that program. So maybe it would be possible to simplify that a ton like maybe a simple drag and drop system. But sense we dont have to keep under a certain polly limit i think it will be alot easier to make things becuase when i first started using gamx i has to make sure and avoid the shape tools becuase they led to alot of polly waste. Oh and last thing do you think that there will be an import tool so we can load up other 3d formats. It just seems like if all the convertor does is take alot of pictures of a 3d object that you could simply have it take pictures of an object made with many other 3d formats like. Lightwave, autocad, and many others. But if not the program im sure will still be a ton better than the original bat tools.

[MaxisBrian 6]

Let me qualify "emulate", which may not have been the best word here. Like I mentioned way back in this thread, we're just taking Gmax and tweaking it a bit; I guess "emulate" could suggest that we are building BAT from the ground up, but modeling it on Gmax.

[GouRou 2]

Maybe I'm not thinking in the same perspective, but you cant exactly take gmax and tweak it, can you? you dont have the source, so therefore you would have to write one of your own modeled after gmax wouldnt you?

Anyway! I didnt intend to grill you on the workings and makeup of the bat.

I am interested in knowing how you do complex curves, such as, imagine if you will, a pipe cut in half, concave on the bottom, then this is curved to be concave over it's length, how would you do something such as that if it's a large scale object, such as a roof?

[MaxisBrian 6]

Yup, you got me. I'm no engineer (but a non-technical artist type) and I don't know exactly what terminology to use here.

[cerulean 15]

Brian,

 

so ive followed everything so far...I havent tried the roofs yet, but I think i get the gist of it...

 

Can you talk about things like reveals, and walls that are cut up into different materials?

 

do you subrtact (boolean) objects from walls for reveals or map them?

 

as for the walls of different materials I mean stuff like a brick wall with a concrete base. Do you slice the walls somehow, cuz once i follow your initial routine i have a nice wall, but for the concrete to brick idea i would want to bevel the concrete where the brick sits on it...

 

little details like that which im sure ive seen in some of the sc4 models (in game buildings)

 

ALSO, if you could talk about what MIGHT be included in the BAT like a materials library, trees? blocks? or if we are going to have to somehow create foliage? for instance I am interested in doing green roof buildings that would require shrubs and small trees...would i have to model all that?

 

THANKS for spenfing your time here

[joerg 278]

Very good question cerulean i too would like to know if things will be included with the bat. But perhaps the best idea would be to have this simply creat props so that we could then make the surrounding area of the building in the LE. But it would still be very nice to have alot of basic things like people, vehicles, and flora at our disposal. Oh and one more thing will we be able to add animation and lighting to these buildings. And as far as lighting goes how complictaed will this be?  Sorry for being so inquisitive i know that you cant give us very much info but im just trying to get a fill for wether i will be able to use this. Oh and last question the buildings that we create now will they be able to be imported to the future tool?

[cerulean 15]

I would imagine that there will be pretty specific lighting fixtures but thats just a guess...it would be dangerous i think to leave the full control that gmax offers for lighting...but im not really sure...It seems to me that most of the lighting in game is fairly consisnent. By that I mean that they seem to use the same lighting techniques and maybe even the same sources on most of the buildings...animations will probably be available. they are simple to use at least in their basic form...like many features in gmax and 3ds things can get very very complicated, but its pretty easy to apply an animation to a 3dface...but again Im really just starting to even think about how maxis builds their models...They have said that they are working to achieve a level of power vs useability so again they could just leave these features as full blown features as they are in gmax or they could get more specific with them by limiting the amount of feature they would let us use like limiting the types and sizes of lighting...another thing about animation which im not sure how it would work in SC4 is that we have to make LOD shells which are mapped with images rendered from a higher polygon model...at least thats my understanding of it, so im not sure how animations would work...

[cerulean 15]

Brian, another thing, You refer to something called a renderable spline...is that the same as an editable spline? I cant find renderable splines anywhere, but have managed to acheive what I think you are talking about with editable splines...

 

Also, when making the glass for the windows I seem to have to go all the way back to the rectangle, clear all of the settings (.4, 4sides, 45 degrees, mapping coords and display mesh) then slap a edit mech on the rectangle to get it to show up as a renderable face...but even then it only renders from one side.

 

 

[GouRou 2]

just make it have thickness, splines are objects, a thickness of 1 and several sides will be an object.

 

if you want a spline to be there, but not show as a final object, use thickness 0, dont map coords, and dont display mesh.

[maddogmark25 58]

when can weexpect to download it? and also would i be able to make lincoln financial field in the gmax?

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Here's how to give thickness to splines, in the Mesh Settings rollout. This is worth spending time with to see how many looks you can get out of splines, attributing varying thicknesses and different numbers of sides. Also try setting the Sides to 4, and change the Angle to 45 degrees if you want a squared off frame/grid.

 

So this is what all the talk of renderable splines is all about. Sorry if it wasn't so clear before.

[MaxisBrian 6]

Oh, and about all the questions concerning BAT, like exactly what features you can expect, when we'll be rolling it out, etc., I'm really not the best one to talk about that above and beyond what I have already said, but maybe someone else here will chip in to that conversation.

 

I'd like to concentrate on mini-tutorial stuff in gmax, and even with that I'll have to pace myself due to other tasks that need my attention here. So I'll check in when I can, and I'm sorry I can't answer all the above questions.

[6459978. 106]

What are UVWs and how do you use them?

[mikeyb66 30]

UVW represents the mapping co-ordinates for textures on an object and relate to XYZ.

To Brian: Will the models that we make now in gMax or 3DS Max be able to put through the BAT process or will we have to make them in the BAT version of gMax or whatever you are doing with it. ie I'm making a model now will i be able to put it in the game.

[MaxisBrian 6]

You should be able to import gmax files you are working on now into the BAT, no problem. I have that question out to the tools engineer, and if I hear back something different I'll let you know, but there should be complete compatibility between gmax and BAT.

[6459978. 106]

Here's my first real attempt at a building. This one is based on a real building near where I live in Toronto. (I think it's called the Clarica Centre). It's not to scale, and the proportions are a little off, but I really just wanted to see if it could be done. Are we going to learn about textures?

 

[cerulean 15]

 

Heres a 4 story office building ive been workin on. I would like to make the flat roof part a patio with trees and such eventually...but ill have to wait to see if Maxis will include trees or if i can use props..

 

I need to add doors  but ill get to that...

 

everything was modeled with Brian's tutorial except the railing which are hard to see in this shot, but in order for them to show up as solids from both sides i had to extrude the "screens" which are between railing posts...

 

and with this I am wondering if we will be able to map masks onto solids so there are transparent areas of the textures???

 

The other thing that is different is the roofs...not sure why but i couldnt get what i wants with Brians tutorials...maybe is just didnt try hard enough...so what i did was create a box, then move the vertexesso which created the pitches...

 

As Brian mentioned, naming everything is KEY...there are close to 200 windows in this model, each one with a frame, 2 mullions and a glass...then there are the tall vertical windows and the window walls...lots of objects..impossible to find unless you name them...and the snaps are key too...its funny i usually model in Autocad at work cuz its a lot more accurate...at least thats to say that its easier to be accurate...but learning how to use the snaps has really helped... THANKS BRIAN

[MaxisBrian 6]

These buildings are looking great. Nice work.

 

In response to some of your concerns/issues:

 

- In gmax, if you want the splines to show up in the renders, you need to apply an Edit Mesh modifier to the spline. Additionally, if you want to make a squared off frame of some sort with the spline, like the 4-sided window frames I talked about, you'll need the Edit Mesh modifier so you can go into Sub-0bject/Polygon, select all polys and clear the smoothing (toward the bottom of the rollout). This will give you nice hard-faceting. If you want tubular railings, pipes, conduit and that sort of thing from your renderable splines, keep the defaults (12 sides, with smoothing).

- Transparency masks are currently posing a challenge for us in gmax/BAT. The outer extents of the buildings will "alpha out" (the areas between the outer extents of the LOD shells and the outer extents of the buildings) but transparency inside of these areas may or may not work. We have to wait and see what we can do about that.

- As for roof geometry, like I said there is no one way to do it, and any routines you are comfortable with or that seem more intuitive for you are the way to go. One thing: for a flat roof surface, don't start with a box or any other solid geometry like that, but instead snap a line around the top, inside vertices of your walls once they are built and arranged. This may just be a rectangle, which is fine, but more complex configurations are especially great for this. Once you snap the line, apply a UVW map modifier to it and see it fill in as a result. For a quick gravel or asphalt roof, I would set the UVW dimensions to even numbers along x and y (default planar setting) and create a noise texture in Photoshop or another paint program. To do this, make a square gray image file (square so you have 1:1 compatability with the square planar mapping of your geometry) and add "Noise", with a strengh of around 6 to 8. Apply this to the roof in gmax, adjust the UVW map scale if necessary. You can also bring in the same image as the bump map, with a strength setting in the materials editor of around 80 to 100. You can also add more details into the roof texture. For instance, I did a low wealth apt. complex for SC4 where I painted an old sock and t-shirt, among other incidental details, into the gravel roof texture.

[MaxisBrian 6]

I've been trying to upload a render of the low wealth apt. building I mentioned, but it won't let me at the moment.

[GouRou 2]

EDIT: no problems here, are you using IE?

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Ah, here we go. This is the low wealth I was talking about. For something like this you can't really tile the roof texture, but need to make the bitmap correspond with the dimensions of the roof surface. What I do is shoot a top-down render of the roof, take that into Photoshop and start painting. This way I can see just where the roof structure will line up, along with the parapets, etc. I go in and cheat shadows here and there using the render as a guide.

[Buggi 684]

We don't have the use of a renderer though.

Nice hose, looks so real

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Here's the texture. Note the tar patching and cracks. This stuff really starts to lend realism and is worth the time. Think about it, with the in-game point of view, you're basically looking down at a bunch of rooftops, so we put alot of attention into this "side" of the buildings. Also note the cheated shadows/grime along the outer perimeter, which show up under the parapets in the model.

 

You really don't need to go into this sort of detail for a flat roof, but for low wealth I like to spice them up with a bunch of debris and extra details.

[MaxisBrian 6]

 

Sometimes I just use this generic one I came up with (sorry Dirk, it's a bit larger than 800x600!). This is suitable for tiling, and I set the UV dimensions at around 20x20. The same works well for a bump map in this case. Grab this and map it onto a flat roof if you like.

[6459978. 106]

Wow! You designed that building! I feel honoured to reply to you!

 

It's kind of weird to see that building in full 3D; I'm so used to seeing them all in isometric (or trimetric or whatever.) And it looks so good, too. Usually things that are rendered 3D don't look so nice. I can't wait till SimCity is in full 3D

 

I still don't know how to use UVWs or apply textures...

[cerulean 15]

Brian, can you again clarify about making a rectangle show up as a solid face, not a frame but a face...like as you described for the glass of windows...the problem i have is that they render from 1 side but not 2 sides...which is fine for the glass, but the railing i was trying to acheive with that 4 story office building would be a wire mesh screen which would be suspended between the railing posts...when i get home ill try and upload a detail of what i mean...so is it normal for the rectangles to render from only one side? maybe another difference between gmax & 3ds?

 

Ive thought about modelling the screen, but imagine that would create another 5000 or so renderable splines...hehe...

[MaxisBrian 6]

Cerulean,

 

If you would like for both sides of a rectangle to appear as solid, apply an Extrude modifier to it instead of a UVW Map modifier. Set the amount to 0.