BAT - Troubleshooting & General Discussion

[Jasoncw 11,840]

benvoliothefirst: Right click, and convert the object into an editable polygon if it isn't one already. Then, select the faces that you want to detach, and there's a button called "Detach" in menu to the right.

LivingInThePast: If you count the grids in the perspective viewport, you can see that the wall is not floating, but was just moved beyond the extents of the grid. The grid there goes out 16 meters, and you move your object back 32.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

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[benvoliothefirst 36]

Thanks, Jason! Worked perfectly. You are a gentleman and a scholar!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

oh!  Thank you, that's very flattering! lol  

[LivingInThePast 364]

Wow! That works...for some reason it didn't seem my question was answered because it only went to page 25 as "last unread". Thanks a bunch!

[LivingInThePast 364]

I have a question for future reference...when designing buildings based after RL buildings, you can get fairly accurate X and Y coordinates by measuring it on aerial photos, but what about fronts for buildings?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

The following is part of a PM I sent to someone about BATing the Detroit Commerce Building. 

The first paragraph deals with getting the general dimensions of the building from Google Earth, and other sources, and in this case it explains how you could possibly get dimensions of recently demolished buildings.

The rest explains how to figure out the proportions of parts of the building, and then how derive specific dimensions from those proportions.  Basically, if you know that B is twice as big as A, and you know that A is 5 meters, then you know that B is 10 meters.

As you know the building is demolished, and it looks like Google Earth has been updated since it's demolition, so the measure tool can't be used to measure the building.  However, local live has not been updated.  So I took a screenshot of the building, scaled and overlayed it in photoshop with a screenshot from google earth of the same area, plus a measured line.  With that I found that the building is about 31x27 meters.  Using skyscraperpage/emporis, I found that the building is 51.8 meters tall in real life.  To correct this for the game, we're going to mulitply the height by 133%, resulting in a height of about 69 meters.  This number includes the mechanical penthouses.  You don't want to model the main part of the building based off the total height, and then add the penthouses afterwards becuase then you've made the building taller than it should be.  So we'll just take off 4 meters to account for the penthouse before modeling the main section of the building.  So we'll just say the main part of the building is 65 meters tall.  Alternatively, you can skip the vertical scaling for now, and model things exactly as they are, and then you can scale at the end.  The only problem with this, is that you need to have a lot of confidence in what you're modeling, since you won't really know what the building looks like until the very end.

So then we search flickr.com for photos of this building (also known as the people's outfitter building) and we find this one

which is a straight on elevation of the facade.  We'll derive proportions from this image.  So take a screenshot of it, and paste it in photoshop.  For finding out proportions, I usually inscribe squares onto the image using the rectangular selection tool and holding down shift to get a square.  Then I can move this around and see how many squares big something is.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3219/proportionsuo8.jpg

^Here's an illustration of what I'm going to explain below.  Reference back to it when needed.

Looking at this screenshot, we can see that there are three main parts of the facade, the windows, the terra cotta spandrels, and the columns (which I think are terra cotta bricks).  The windows are cut in half in one direction, but there is also that horizontal window mullion at the top.  The bottom half of the windows (the bottom two tall windows) form a square (red).  The top part of the windows, plus the spandrel also forms a square (except for a little bit of window ledge, which can easily be accounted for) (also red).  Within the box that has the spandrel and top of the window in it, the spandrel and the rectangles in the window have the same proportions (green).  But that's not all.  The top box is actually divided into thirds (yellow).  And finally, we can select a box to measure the width of the columns, and then moving it over the windows, it turns out that the columns are the same width as one of those vertical windows (blue).

So those are the proportions of that.  Now we just need to know the actual dimension of one of those pieces, and we'll know the rest of the dimensions, and we'll be ready to model.  The only dimensions we know are the height, width, and depth of the total building.  The height isn't useful because floor heights may be different from floor to floor (you can't take the height and divide by the number of floors to get the floor heights).  But we do have approximate widths, and by looking at the facade we can see that each bay is a standard size.  Now, you'd need to be careful when deciding that, because sometimes there will be subtle differences between each bay, but in this case there aren't any (as far as I know anyway).

So there are 8 bays on the front of the building.  I think the width is 27 meters.  Normally, I'd take 27/3 to get the width of each bay.  The problem with this, is each wall "unit" would include the windows, and one of the columns (you'd either include one whole column, or you'd include one half of a column on each side), and if you take this and array it across to make your entire wall, you're going to be missing one of the columns at the end, or half of a column on each end of the facade.  But our smallest horizontal "unit" is actually the blue width.  So we have 25 blues across the front facade.  I think it is 27 meters wide, but my measurement was pretty loose, so I'll assume that there are 25 blues across, and that the width is actually 25 meters, making each "blue" unit 1 meter wide. 

This means that the red boxes are 2x2 meters, and that the yellow lines are 2/3 meters, and that the blue.  Since each red square is 2x2, and since there are two red squares per floor, the height of each floor is 4 meters (but remember that this doesn't take into account the 133% verical scaling yet).  The other side of the building is 28 blues, and so it is 28 meters.

So that should be enough information to accurately model the majority of the facade.  Getting specific though, make sure to pay close attention to the specific shapes, for example, the columns aren't rectangles, they're more complicated than that.

[LivingInThePast 364]

Jason: Thanks!

Here's a current problem...right clicking doesn't work in gmax anymore. I've restarted the program, maybe restart my computer? (it hasn't had a shut down in over a week!)

EDIT: That did the trick!

[kiwispanker 1]

question: when you move the LODs, do you mean so they're not "covering" the model? if the model is overhanging outside of the LODs, once rendered, the BAT wouldn't be complete -- meaning only half would be rendered. i may be wrong, but i'm just looking for clarification.

i've never created offset props but would be curious as well to know how. could you nosx, or anyone else, provide a bit more detail into this. it would be greatly appreciated.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

You are correct about the model being cut in half if you were to move the LODs, so to make an off centered prop, simply move the entire model (and the lods) to where ever you need them. After you export and go into LE, your model should appear where you moved it in the BAT.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

What's important about the LODs isn't the 3D space it takes up, it's the silhouette it makes. You can have parts of your model sticking out of your LODs, as long as the silhouette of your model fits within the silhouette of your LODs. Otherwise parts of your building will be cut off.

That's just a bit of general info. What SimHoTToDDy says is true for making offset props.

[madhatter106 3,903]

Quick question, because I have not been able to find it anywhere on the forums...a while back, I saw that someone had posted a link to a program for creating randomized repeating brick patterns for texturing. Anyone know of a freeware one to use or download? The ones I've found online have been either dead or bogus links, or links to expensive high profile software with too much firepower than I need...

[kiwispanker 1]

ok. i think i was a bit confused. the OP who asked the question wanted to know how to make overhanging props; what i specifically am curious about is how to make an oversized prop fit onto a single tile. Xyloxadoria did it with the recent Modern Overhanging [Monorail] Station Pack @ https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21931 ... but it was done using a building (rather than a prop ~ i'm not sure if that matters or not).

last week i made a 1x3 prop in hopes it would fit on a 1x1 tile. i moved the model (and LODs) over a half step (like 8 meters on GMAX) and it overhangs nicely. but on the lot editor the BAT will show as a 1x3 prop and thus my lot needs to correspond.

i'm sure if i've missing something really simple. either way, could you all help me (and possibly others) out. thank you very much!

[SimFox 802]

Originally posted by: madhatter106

Quick question, because I have not been able to find it anywhere on the forums...a while back, I saw that someone had posted a link to a program for creating randomized repeating brick patterns for texturing. Anyone know of a freeware one to use or download? The ones I've found online have been either dead or bogus links, or links to expensive high profile software with too much firepower than I need...quote>

here it is, catch:

http://www.bricksntiles.com/

I personally never used it but it does look promising...

Originally posted by: kiwispanker

ok. i think i was a bit confused. the OP who asked the question wanted to know how to make overhanging props; what i specifically am curious about is how to make an oversized prop fit onto a single tile. Xyloxadoria did it with the recent Modern Overhanging [Monorail] Station Pack @ https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21931 ... but it was done using a building (rather than a prop ~ i'm not sure if that matters or not).

last week i made a 1x3 prop in hopes it would fit on a 1x1 tile. i moved the model (and LODs) over a half step (like 8 meters on GMAX) and it overhangs nicely. but on the lot editor the BAT will show as a 1x3 prop and thus my lot needs to correspond.

i'm sure if i've missing something really simple. either way, could you all help me (and possibly others) out. thank you very much!quote>

yes, you sure do! I mean, missing something simple... to fit something big onto something small all you have to do is to make the controlling agent (in this case Lot Editor) to think that it is small enough. Moving things around doesn't do that , now, does it? Besides doing it you actually move things relative to the center of coordinates which is also the Pivot point for the game.

What you need is to fake the size of your model. Lot Editor and game itself can't really read the sizes of actual 3d models (LOD shells) instead they rely on data written in the SC4Modle file in plain human (English in this case) language. To full them, just change that data accordingly. Most efficient way to do so is to do it straight after the export, before you get it through the Plug-in Manager. To accomplish this task you'll need the iLive Reader program, available for download from STEX.

Actual procedure is as follows:

• Open SC4Modle that you have just exported and plan to fiddle with in iLive Reader.
• On the right Hand Side click on Fill the List button and feel the Power :-)
• The file you need  to forge is XML file. Select it and on the right panel you'll see it's content. In the 3rd line of code from top you'll see tag with Width, Height and Depth of the box bounding your model's LODs. These are the numbers you'll need to edit.
• Press "edit" button and type in the numbers you need. Remember hat game tile is 16x16 meters.
• after done typing remember to press "Apply" button that will appear after you've pressed "edit" one.
• Save file
• take it to Plug-in Manager and see how it will list the size you  have just input.
• In Lot editor's "top view" blue square representing the prop/model/whatever will have dimensions you've specified for Width and Depth...

[Raysfan16 5]

Okay, I'm just getting started with BAT and it's confusing.

I'm trying to get my front wall just like the one in the 'Making Walls' tutorial that comes with the BAT. You know, an extruded spline with rectangular holes for windows and doors.

But, this is what I get in perspective view. I can't extrude it, by the way.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1703/rochesterproblem.jpg

How do I get it back to normal?

[kodebo 48]

Originally posted by: Raysfan16

Okay, I'm just getting started with BAT and it's confusing.

I'm trying to get my front wall just like the one in the 'Making Walls' tutorial that comes with the BAT. You know, an extruded spline with rectangular holes for windows and doors.

But, this is what I get in perspective view. I can't extrude it, by the way.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1703/rochesterproblem.jpg

How do I get it back to normal?quote>

From you screenshot, it looks like you went to "edit mesh". To get it like the tutorial,  you want to select the rectangles that make up your wall, door, etc. and select "edit spline", then click one of the splines, for example the wall, then in the side rollout click "attach" and then click the other splines (door, windows,etc). Once they are all attached, you should be able to extrude them as a wall.

I'm have trouble with the way one of my BATs is rendering.

You can see in the in-game shot that the textures look kind of pixelated. It's especially noticable where it curves, and on the side in the shadow. There are also alot of dark spots on the windows, and brown square things on the base columns. If you compare it to the test render not of those problems are showing up.

I've rendered it three times, even using new scenes and refitting LODs, but it keeps coming out like this.

Can anyone please tell me what's going on, and can I fix it?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Raysfan16: On your main wall outline, try an edit spline instead of edit mesh, then attach your window splines and extrude. You will have to re draw all of them if you have saved since this happened.

kodebo: Unfortunatly, that might just be the quality of SC4 vs the quality of a rendered 3d model, which are two very different things. I really don't think there is much else you can do. For what it's worth, I think it looks pretty good.

-Todd

[SimFox 802]

People seem to believe that refitting LODs is kind of miracle - good for anything from diarrhea to broken heart , he he he...

well it is now... and generally it hardly ever fixes anything, to be hones...

The issue you have has nothing to d with MAX/GMaX, what ever you're using. but has all to do with how rendered images are compressed. Compression trying to sneak by and "flatten" what it perceives as area of same color, or as it thinks color of too little contrast. That said I have no clue if it is possible somehow hand tune the compression. There are several tools out there that do FSH conversion, but they might all sit on top of same converter...

At any rate you'll be best off by contacting those people who made those programs, they would know the most about the issue.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Actually, I think those blocks are from your graphics card. Spa had the same problem. If this is the same problem, then the building will show up just fine on other people's computers.

If you want to, you can post the .SC4Model file here, and someone can confirm what the problem is.

[kodebo 48]

Jasoncw: I also kind of figured that's what it might be. I tried it out on another computer that has a completely different graphics card, and it still looked all blocky and compressed.

I also wanted to experiment, and just rendered the base of the tower alone, and it had none of those problems:

Maybe it just compresses it more if the model is larger?

[Jasoncw 11,840]

hmm, that's weird, maybe that's the case. I guess you can just render it in two parts then. To make it easier for downloaders you can just merge it all together and call it whatever.SC4Model.

[Evillions 552]

Ever since I opened up the BAT tool about a month ago. I've been encountring problems such as:

• Panel doesn't show up
• Icons doesn't show up

If anyone know what's the problem to this. PLEASE post!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Can you post a screenshot? "Panels or icons not showing up" could be interpreted different ways.

[Evillions 552]

Well this is what I mean...

Know the problem to this?

[SimFox 802]

you have and "selection" of problem there.

First and worst is that corruption of the UI.

Fortunately this bug is know as it does occur in Max as well. To fix it you would have to manually force GMAX to install UI scheme. This can be don via

1. Customize

2. Load Custom UI Scheme (and selection one to the files that will be shown to you (say you select DefaultUI.CUI).

After selecting this file your UI elements should resurface again but the colors will revert to the GMAX defaults - eg sort of brownish-grey. If you wanna get BAT blue back you would have to manually (again just once) load it's color scheme. To do that click on

1. Customize once more

2. Customize User Interface

3. Color tab

4. Load... And go to this location - ...gmax\gamepacks\BAT\UI and select clr file of the BAT hue scheme...

all should return to normal...

If you still missing some panels you can get them back in Customize -> Show UI

[Evillions 552]

Thank you Simfox! It's now solved! Now I can BAT for Simmars again. Thx

[LivingInThePast 364]

 I'm working on the tutorial still and have gotten to this point in the tutorial yet it didn't appear very "bloated". So when I tried to "collapse to an editable mesh" it didn't seem to work...or did it?

Photo is here

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I would use Edit Poly instead.

I don't know what you were are expecting it to do that it didn't do, but it seems to be just fine.

If you right click on a modifier in the modifier stack, there are options for "collapsing" the stack. Collapsing all will collapse the entire stack, and collapse to will collapse part of it. If you right click on an object and convert it to an editable poly (or whatever you convert it to), it will automatically collapse the stack for you. Collapse To is useful if you want to collapse the stack while not collapsing the UVW Map.

[bixel 1,223]

I am currently working on getting one of my models in CitiesXL - inorder to do so I am using new textureing techniques. But I am having a problem. I am using a png texture with a alpha channel, I am using that same texture as the alpha map since the texture is a window. Once it applied I will have a separate texture as the window glass, that way we dont see too much repetition. Unfortunately, everytime I apply the alpha map I get see-through seams along the edges, I've been using the material editor crop tool to try and fix this but that doesnt help. I've triple checked the textures to make sure I don't have open seams... I dunno what to do

[autoVino 26]

To be honest, I cannot duplicate this error at all. I've seen it (and had it) before, but as to how and why it occurs, who knows.

I have a hunch, though, that this is a max version dependent error. I remember having this occasionally in max 9, but I have yet to come across it in 2010.

Some suggestions to see what happens:

-See what happens when you use jpeg or other formats instead of png.

-Maybe play around with the mapping coordinates. If you are using uvw map, try the unwrap modifier and edit the mapping coordinates from there.

-Maybe there's another way around this problem. If all else fails I would just use a blend map to blend two textures together with a bitmap mask and give them different coordinate id's or mapping id's... if that makes any sense