Incredibly stupid freight transport.

[skallben 21]

I have an small industrial area and using Big Red Fishs traffic control mod i have every road except one sealed off for trucks because i want freight to go by train and keep the trucks off my roads. The first picture below shows how i want them to go and what is also the shortest path.

Loading cargo on to one of several freight train stations that is, and most freight trucks do so. However some have decided to go to the port through a very strange path.

 

And this is why its stupid

 

 

Please excuse my crude photoshop skills

 

I think about 380 tons go by train and 135 go to the port. Most does as i want but still its completely stupid, just plain stupid.

 

The only mod i think could be related to this i am using is the NAM(better pathfinding), or PEGs seaport. Im going to test more on this but i would really appreciate if someone shared eventual information related to this bug.

[meinhosen 11]

In answering you, I'm assuming that you want all your freight to be shipped via rail:

 

1.  consider plopping down a few No Trucks lots in front of that seaport. 

2.  put the No Trucks lots on all the roads you have that connect to your neighbor cities.

 

I've found that sealing off all outgoing roads to truck traffic works pretty well, so I'd recommend you doing that.

 

ps:  no, this will not increase freight trips- it seems that freight trips (I think) are determined by distance to the border, not distance travelled.  that's been my experience.

[rustalot42684 0]

Trucks are very annoying

[skallben 21]

Thanks for replying,

Of course i sealed the last road out too, to get my my freight out right was not the main point now as i have the traffic control mod(smart work by BRF by the way). This thread was started mainly for pointing out that something with the freight stations are really buggy. I thought this could shine some new light on a problem ive seen discussed on the forums alot already and if we could isolate the problem maybe someone could fix the stations.

 

Look at the station in the middle of the second picture and how the freight trucs drive next to a station but just ignores it.

As for taking the shortest route, that stupid road trip could never be faster than the freight trains, not even if they could straight forward to the port would it be shorter.

 

I will continue doing some tests and come back here if i find out something new. I would really appreciate if someone with knowledge about the game engine could shed some light on this.

 

rustalot btw, im with you on the freedom of speech and censorship thing

Have a good holliday all

[peepska 0]

why have a seaport if you don't want to use it? Seems silly.

But the no trucks lot is most effective. Look at the possible routes out of the industrial district and block them off.

[simmax 0]

I find that seaports attract trucks towards them, and it's the distance to the seaport that matters. On your pic, I see that only the factories which are fairly close to the seaport go to the seaport. Their strange path is just a pathfinding bug. Therefore...destroy your seaport or block the roads.

[skallben 21]

Do you mean the physical distance from the factories to the seaport or do you mean the travelling distance?

Also I'm thankful for all suggestions how to solve this, but thats not really the point, im more after finding the cause and perhaps make a mod.

I agree that the seaports attracts trucks, is it possible to change that, if so is it some exemplar file or is it something else?

I've started to experiment with ilives tool and really hope to come up with something.

I would be nice with a mod so you wont have to block all the roads all the time.

[Odd from Sweden 129]

Just demolish the seaport and You are fine off!

[meinhosen 11]

Do you mean the physical distance from the factories to the seaport or do you mean the travelling distance?

quote>

Physical distance.  Your stuff can travel all over the map, but the physical distance is what is measured.  If you manage to find some new breakthrough making truck traffic less stupid, by all means share it.

READ BELOW:

And, I just noticed this- did you put no trucks lots south of your industrial area?  It may be something else, but on your first and second pictures, you look like you sealed off some of your avenues with those zones.  If that's true, that's probably why your trucks are going so out of the way to get to that seaport.  Removing or changing some of those (if it's true), would probably solve your freight moving dilemma in a short minute.

[JaxCoJazz 3]

     First off, the seaport and the neighbor connection serve the same purposes.  They give an outlet to your industry.  All those industrial trips to the seaport are giving you demand cap relief (reference: Prima's Official Strategy Guide to SimCity 4).  Trust me, when the city grows, you'll need it.  You can have a maximum of 650 freight trips to the seaport (thus, 650 points of demand cap relief).  I suggest moving the seaport closer to your industrial zones.  Also, that rail connection is raising you CO (commercial-office) demand cap by 10,000.  Do NOT make another rail connection to your neighbor or else you will have a reduced effect.  All in all, more neighbor connections (not redundant connections) of varying networks will let you build more in your city.  If the seaport becomes overcapacitied, then add another next to it.

     But, if you don't want your industrial to use the seaport, block off all the roads or eliminate the seaport.

[skallben 21]

First, let me straighen one thing out here. This was posted here one the Game experiments forum because that was exactly was it was supposed to be, an experiment. I blocked all routes to the port except one, which I DELIBERATELY left open just to find out how desperate those truck drivers  are to get to the port and the pictures speak for themselves.

 

JaxCoJazz; are you absolutely sure that a second rail-line will decrease the demand cap, I read somewhere that a second connection adds half of the first ones number onto the already existing cap relief from the first line, like this:
10 000 + 5 000 = 15 000.
Otherwise, if what you said is true, I build way to many neighborhood connections

 

However I did a new find here, I don't know if anyone has come up with this before but here we go.
The trucks seem to greatly priotitize the port in front of rail-freight stations so I decided to try to make the trucks load off their cargo in a freight station and then let the cargo go to the port by rail and seal off all routes which trucks can go directly to the port.

 

 

Same road as they took before to get to the port, now there are no trucks.

 

 

They still go quite faraways to get to the port, but not nearly as farout as before. I will try to some more testings to verify this, after all this was no real test city and it has grown a bit between the changes. I will come back with some more as soon as I get some time over.

 

 

[JayStimson 211]

This is a very interesting puzzle. Keep us posted. I ran some tests along the same lines trying to test something just a bit different. I wanted freight trucks to drop off their freight at a local freight rail station and then have the freight trains bring it to the seaport using the rail connect (BRF's modded version of PEG's seaport. There were no neighbor connections (rail, road, or otherwise) and no way to get to the seaport except by rail. What I found is that no freight went anywhere and certainly not to the seaport by rail.

My next set of tests include the following:

1. Modify my freight stations to allow freight trains coming in to convert to freight trucks (game default doesn't do this - I checked the transit switch point record in the exemplar) and place a freight station next to the seaport. I want to see if freight will go from truck to rail to truck to seaport.

2. Check the emplar in the seaport to see what incoming freight trains convert to and try some adjustments to the transit switch point record to make it appear that freight comes in by rail and ships out by ship. Isn't that really the intent of the modified seaport ? Otherwise, why have a rail coming in ?

I'll post my results here if I figure anything out.

I'm back and here's my results.

Both agriculture and industry will take the rail (freight) route to the seaport and ship their freight when that is the only transit option available (no road). Everything seems to work fine. As soon as road access to the seaport becomes available, freight trucks take over and very shortly, all freight to the seaport arrives via truck (freight rail use = 0).

This appears to be in-line with expected pathfinding as when sims prefer to take their cars rather than buses, trains, el-trains, or even the high-speed monorail even when it seems that mass-transit would be quicker (less commute time).

So, this means, as far as I can tell that the issue lies within the games pathfinding algorithm and not within the game pieces (lots). I was using the x10 better pathing option in the NAM but I don't think this creates the problem specifically. However, and I am guessing here, it might be possible to change the values of certain parameters such that (at least for freight), rail (if it's available) would be the preference. Maybe the folks who maintain the NAM can better address this and maybe make some adjustments. I'm not sure how the algorithm works but my preference would be that shortest commute (travel) time would take preference.

[skallben 21]

To me it seems, road is prioritized before rail and seaports before neighborhoor connections.

And as you said; JayStimson the problem is not in the lots its with the pathfinding.
The more time went, the trucks started finding their way back to the port through the old crazy way..If I can figure out some new tests to do to make this clearer, I will come back here.

Mostly, the quickest way out of town is used with the exception of the seaports which seems to be slightly favored, maybe the distance is the key factor.

Thanks for the helpful replies, anyone else feel free to add your analysis, knowledge or theories. I'm starting to run out of ideas. Most useful would be if someone with knowledge about the game engine would help out.

[newyorkrunaway1 110]

Date: 12/26/2004 11:40:18 PM
Author:skallben

I have an small industrial area and using Big Red Fishs traffic control mod i have every road except one sealed off for trucks because i want freight to go by train and keep the trucks off my roads. The first picture below shows how i want them to go and what is also the shortest path.

Loading cargo on to one of several freight train stations that is, and most freight trucks do so. However some have decided to go to the port through a very strange path.

And this is why its stupid

Please excuse my crude photoshop skills

I think about 380 tons go by train and 135 go to the port. Most does as i want but still its completely stupid, just plain stupid.

The only mod i think could be related to this i am using is the NAM(better pathfinding), or PEGs seaport. Im going to test more on this but i would really appreciate if someone shared eventual information related to this bug.

quote>


Where can you download Big Red Fish's Traffic Control Mod at??? I searched the stex and the mod sections???? cant find it anywhere!!!??? Thanks!

[kenkne 0]

How do you get the freight trains to deliver to the sea port? I can only get trucks to the sea port.

[JayStimson 211]

Date:1/11/2005 3:01:31 PM
Author:kenkne

How do you get the freight trains to deliver to the sea port?  I can only get trucks to the sea port.

quote>

We're using PEG's seaport (modified by BRF).

https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?mode=files&filetype=Lot&Str=peg%20cdk%20seaport%20brf%20modded

[cogeo 960]

Very odd!
I face the opposite problem, industries in one of my cities prefer to export their cargo via roads and rails, and I can't get any usage for my port although I do have my industrial area connected to the port via both road and rail. The port gets some usage only if I destroy all my neighbour connections. The distance from the industrial area to the port is larger than the distance to neighbour cities (I have built the industrial area at the corner if the map) and this must be why the simulator chooses these routes.
The distance cargo has to travel WITHIN the city appears to characterise the freight trips as short or long, a very odd criterion indeed!

And a question: how do you seal off your roads for trucks?

[skallben 21]

BRFs traffic control mod

The physical distance is the key;
Either
1. How FAST the cargo gets to its goal is not at all included in the algorithm
or
2. There is some kind of penalty loading on the goods by freight stations and that would make roads quicker.


Now, I have some new ideas so when I have the time to do some new tests, results will be posted here.

BTW nice to see your still with me JayStimson

Kenkne and others who install PEG's seaport (modified by BRF) will you please let me now if you notice any difference other than being able ship cargo to the port by train.

[MrTruesage 27]

Date:1/11/2005 6:47:31 PM
Author:skallben

BRFs traffic control mod

The physical distance is the key;
Either
1. How FAST the cargo gets to its goal is not at all included in the algorithm
or
2. There is some kind of penalty loading on the goods by freight stations and that would make roads quicker.


Now, I have some new ideas so when I have the time to do some new tests, results will be posted here.

BTW nice to see your still with me JayStimson

Kenkne and others who install PEG's seaport (modified by BRF) will you please let me now if you notice any difference other than being able ship cargo to the port by train.

quote>

2. The transit switch cost seems to be 0 in the Freight Station exemplar

Looking at the second pic (freight station placed in the middle of the industry), could you place your freight station right next to your avenue and your railway behide the freight station.  I'd be interested if this makes any difference.

[Crimson King 0]

I also have been frequently consternated by my industry's apparent unwillingness to use the best method of freight transport available, and after much fiddling about have realized that, as you mentioned, the physical distance (i.e., as the crow flies) appears to be only factor in determining where and how freight gets shipped. Specifically, it is the distance to the connection that is important, not the distance to the freight station.

Looking at your screenshots, it looks like the factories that are using the seaport are closer (again, as the crow flies) to the port than to the rail connection leading out of the city. The fact that the rail station is much closer doesn't matter, because a rail station is not a connection. This makes a bit of sense, as it wouldn't make sense for factories to ship their goods to a rail station that isn't connected to a map edge vice using a road that is. But, as your city shows, it can lead to some rather silly prioritizations. The commuter pathing AI will terminate a commute path when it passes by an open job, but the freight pathing AI doesn't seem to have that optimization. C'est la vie.

To get industry to use rail in unmodded SC4+RH, one has to make sure to zone industry closer (once more, as the crow flies) to rail connections than seaports, road connections, etc.

-CK

[sloppet 3]

i think you should have more railroad connections with the other parts of your city...

[hairmetal4ever 0]

Don't bash Bush voters...there's at least a couple of us on this board.

I am perhaps the only Republican mayor in Simtropolis...

[FavreKev04 13]

Dude I'm having the same prob, I want to either delte my seaport or train, I think I'm deleting the seaport.

[Cjah 15]

If your by water then you need a seaport...If your inland you need rail....

I say you move your seaport closer and use the rail for commuters instead...

 

Maybe thats a bad idea,but I try to be realistic...

[NintendoMaster128 30]

I'm a Republican too!  At least we give a use to those seaports!  haha 

[NintendoMaster128 30]

oh oh!  I forgot.  About freight.  I have a picture of a freight ship ON THE EFFING LAND!  haha.  It must have gotten lost or something, but it's half above ground, have in.  It's insane...  I hope I still have the pic.

[+Guest]

I acually have a similar problem... i have freight stations everywhere (mostly PEG rural freight) in my industrial areas, with connections to the seaport and yet no freight trains use it. Everything travels by freight truck. It really annoys me. If you want to see what my industrustrial area, see my CJ cause its happening in that city. I also have the NAM installed and yet it still does it.