Vanilla lots using unlisted prop families

[Psiman 177]

The 1x1 Small Plaza has a randomized object in the centre of that tile that can be, for example, a statue or hotdog stand. However, this randomized object does not appear in the Prop Families listed in the Lot Editor. Clicking on the object in the Lot Editor states it to be a standard Prop. If one looks up this Prop number in the Prop List while working on another lot and places it, then it appears as the Prop, not a Prop Family.

How is this object listed as a Prop yet appearing as an unlisted Prop Family?

The base tile of the Small Plaza, as well as Open Paved Area, is also randomized, from a small selection of patterns. How does the base texture from this tile become randomized? Does this randomized base texture tile also affect the randomized object that appears on it?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Okay, first things first: you are not hallucinating and you are not doing anything wrong. What you observed is, indeed, an alternative way to create prop "families" without having to assign an actual prop family ID. These things have been called "ad-hoc prop families" in the past because you can assemble them from any number of props (there's the "family" aspect) for one lot without having and needing a fixed family ID (there's the "ad-hoc" aspect).

Here's an excerpt from a PM I wrote to another member about the same topic. It refers to the way these ad-hoc prop families work. In order to understand this text, however, you need to know what a lot file looks like "under the hood" - that is, in iLive's Reader.

Quote

• In the LotConfigExemplar, each prop has a line that's made up of 13 REPs by default, the first one being 0x00000001 for "prop", followed by REPs that contain information on x/y/z position and orientation, and the last one being the Instance ID of the prop exemplar in question.
• This tells the game to display prop (IID) at this and that position and in this and that orientation.
• If you want to randomise things a little, you can note the Instance IDs of other props and add these to the relevant line as additional REPs.
• This tells the game to display any of the prop IIDs it finds at REP 13 and beyond at the respective position/orientation (reps 01-12 for "prop" and its position/orientation don't change, after all!)
• The props will appear centred around the respective spot (i.e. you cannot use this method to make trailers of different lengths appear parked next to a building at equal distance to the wall, unless the models are rendered at an x/y offset)
• You can influence the probability of each prop appearing by adding its IID more often than that of other props! Let's say you have a yellow oil drum by default and you add the IID of a black oil drum as 14th REP to the line - the result will be a 50/50 chance for either a black or yellow oil drum. Add the IID of the black oil drum a total of four times, and you have a 20% vs. 80% chance of a yellow or black oil drum appearing, respectively.
• If you have an invisible prop, you can even use this to influence the probability of a prop (or any prop from a group) appearing at all - this enables you to have two layers of random selection: 1) whether any visible prop will appear at all, and 2) which one it will be.

That's basically all there is behind this method - the advantage lies in its flexibility and the fact that it doesn't require tedious prop family modding and/or duplicate exemplars to accommodate the added "building/prop family" property. The disadvantage is that you can't just select the "family" of props from the list, and that you cannot visually cycle through the props by pressing "N".

You can, however, theoretically make a lot that contains a set of pre-made "ad-hoc families". Then, you could delete those that you will not use for the lot you're designing right now, and shove the required ones around as you wish. If you duplicate a prop that is actually attached to an "ad-hoc family", you will duplicate it with all the additional REPs attached, meaning that you effectively copy the entire family to another location.

If any of the above (or all of it ) doesn't make sense to you, don't hesitate to ask for further clarification.

[Psiman 177]

Thanks.

I'm making an alternate 2x2 Medium Plaza lot and am thinking of using the ad hoc prop family found in the Small Plaza lot, minus one prop and maybe adding another.

While I've downloaded Reader, I've not really used it yet, so I don't have much to say yet about the additional info you've given until I've learned a bit about how to use the program!

[Psiman 177]

I've made a copy of the vanilla 1x1 Small Plaza and opened it with the Reader. I can't find the "LotConfigExemplar" you mentioned. Is that the name of all the files in this exemplar window, or a specific line?

Here's a screenshot from the Reader of the 1x1 Small Plaza. I presume this is the right screen. Which line or lines should I be looked at for the random prop object placement?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Ah, excellent. Yes, this is the right screen. And you have actually found the "LotConfig Exemplar". Look at the left column - you have an exemplar file selected here. And now look at the second line in the right section of the screen: it says "Exemplar type - LotConfigurations".

The lines that are relevant for the lot's appearance are the ones with the many hexadecimal values in the "Value" column, the first line being the one entitled "LotConfigPropertyLotObject" and the other ones those that are simply marked as "Unknown". Actually, all of these define the lot objects used.

Look at the first hexadecimal number in the "Value" column: You'll see one line that starts with a "0x00000000". This is the building (the grey box in the Lot Editor). Every lot needs a building, even if that building is invisible. The reason is that the building exemplar holds many key properties that determine, among other things, consumption, pollution, tax income, jobs, etc.

Then there is one line that starts with a "0x00000002". This is the lot texture. This is a 1x1 lot with only one base texture and no overlay texture, hence there's only one line.

The lines that start with "0x00000001" represent the props that appear on the lot. There are several of those.

Before we get to the point, it's important to understand what all these values do. We have covered the first one, but what about the others? Well, most of them are for X/Y/Z position and orientation. The last one is a decisive one: it is nothing else but the IID of the prop exemplar that appears at this particular spot. If you read the line roughly from left to right, this is pretty much what it tells the game: "Now here's a prop; it is positioned there, it is rotated in that direction, and this is its IID".

If you look closely, one of the prop line doesn't have 13 Reps like the others. It has 17 instead. If you scroll to the right so you see all the values, you will not see one prop exemplar IID as the last value - you will see five prop exemplar IIDs. What this does it basically telling the game "Now here's a prop; it is positioned there, it is rotated in that direction, and this is its IID - or this - or this - or this - or this". This means that the game will take the specified position and orientation and then randomly display one of the five props that are referenced by the Reps 13 to 17. This here is your "ad-hoc prop family". This is what causes the rotation.

You can try it yourself by adding yet another rep. Simply go to the LE and select an absolutely ridiculous prop - maybe a tank, or a smokestack. Write down its IID. Now open this test lot, and add another Rep to the line that already has 17. Enter the IID of the prop that you wrote down. Now when you open the game and plop your lot a few times, you should occasionally see one that has that ridiculous prop (tank or smokestack in my example) on it.

[Psiman 177]

I figured out which line it was, as only one contained the codes for the props for this random object, but thanks for the additional info.

While there are five props listed, two of them - for Nicefountain - appear to be graphically identical for some reason.

So it would probably be pretty easy to modify this lot's random object as I wanted it. I didn't want to use the fountain anyway, so I would delete those two entries, and there was another prop I wanted to add, so I would add the code for that. (Incidentally, can prop family codes be used as well here?).

The lot I want to have these randomized objects on, however, is a 2x2 Plaza tile. How easy is it to go about creating a new ad hoc prop family object from scratch?

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Yes, you could make those changes exactly as you describe. And yes again, prop families can also be added here. Just as I outlined in the PM that I quoted in my first reply, you can also add one and the same IID (individual prop or prop family) several times to influence the probability of appearance.

Creating a new ad-hoc prop family from scratch is, in fact, a very easy and straightforward process. All you need is the Lot Editor and the Reader, both of which you are using anyway. Now here's another interesting tidbit that is very valuable to know: The lines in the LotConfigExemplar are added to the file in chronological order, i.e. in the same order in which you place the objects (building, base textures, overlay textures, props) on the lot. If you start with the building, then add the textures and finally the props, the line for the building (starting with "0x00000000") will be right on top. If you then proceeded to edit the lot again and replaced the building with a different one in the LE, the line for the building would move to the very bottom because you added it last. This knowledge will come in handy soon.

1. In the Lot Editor, choose the props that you want to use, and note their Instance ID (the code you see in the prop list and in the LE window when you click on the prop).
2. Place any one of the props that you want to use in the desired spot and orientation. (all other props will appear centred around the same spot, and in the same orientation)
3. Save and exit.
4. Open the lot file in the Reader, select the LotConfigExemplar and locate the correct line. Either look at the last (13th) rep and locate the IID of the one prop that you placed, or - bearing in mind what I wrote above - if you placed your prop last, simply go to the last line. In any case, the 13th rep should correspond to the IID of the prop in question.
5. Add as many reps as you need and fill them with the IIDs of the other props that you wrote down.
6. Done.

[Psiman 177]

Great, it worked! Thanks for your help!

I tried pressing 'N' as you said, in the Props Family part of the Lot Editor, and being able to cycle through the Props and seeing them is very useful. Is there a similar shortcut to viewing and cycling through normal Props, instead of loading them one by one?

[rsc204 21,866]

7 hours ago, Psiman said:

I tried pressing 'N' as you said, in the Props Family part of the Lot Editor, and being able to cycle through the Props and seeing them is very useful. Is there a similar shortcut to viewing and cycling through normal Props, instead of loading them one by one

No, this only exists for Prop Families.

If you are serious about modding, I'd recommend looking at using a 3rd Party PIM / Lot Editor app, PIM-X (SC4 PIM/X-Tool), available here. One of the benefits is a visual list of all props/textures when lotting, which is what was used to compile these screenshots.

 

[Psiman 177]

On 26/10/2018 at 10:06 AM, rsc204 said:

No, this only exists for Prop Families.

If you are serious about modding, I'd recommend looking at using a 3rd Party PIM / Lot Editor app, PIM-X (SC4 PIM/X-Tool), available here. One of the benefits is a visual list of all props/textures when lotting, which is what was used to compile these screenshots.

 

Thanks.

I was able to register with SC4Devotion to view the screenshots, but had problems registering with SC4D LEX in order to download PIM-X.

[rsc204 21,866]

2 hours ago, Psiman said:

but had problems registering with SC4D LEX in order to download PIM-X

Dedicated thread for such issues can be found here, although I would recommend making sure you've checked any SPAM folders for the registration e-mail, it's a common problem.

[Psiman 177]

Thanks. I contacted the Webmaster.

One more question: do you know whether there's a limit on how many props can be used in an ad hoc prop family?

[rsc204 21,866]

I guess I'd have to say try it and see what happens. I've never really needed more than a handful of options, if it gets beyond that, you may find a proper Prop Family would be more useful. The best way to judge is, would you be using the same grouping of props many times over, or is this a unique situation. If the former, consider getting a Prop Family ID range from here and making proper families.

[Psiman 177]

21 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I guess I'd have to say try it and see what happens. I've never really needed more than a handful of options, if it gets beyond that, you may find a proper Prop Family would be more useful. The best way to judge is, would you be using the same grouping of props many times over, or is this a unique situation. If the former, consider getting a Prop Family ID range from here and making proper families.

Thanks, I'll give it a go!

[Psiman 177]

On 23/10/2018 at 10:40 AM, T Wrecks said:

• If you have an invisible prop, you can even use this to influence the probability of a prop (or any prop from a group) appearing at all - this enables you to have two layers of random selection: 1) whether any visible prop will appear at all, and 2) which one it will be.

Do you know if there's an invisible prop in the vanilla Maxis files? I can't see one in the screenshots. There's a bunch of twoCans_invis props which are something to do with invisible dustbins, which might perhaps be useful.

From elsewhere on the internet:

"You can also check out the Maxis "Two Cans" family.  To use this family correctly, the Lotconfig should be changed.  The cans (which have garbage requesters) will never appear unless there is garbage on the lot.  Although, most of the Cans are invisible so you most likely wont see anything when their is garbage (seems even maxis didn't like "prop random chance")."

[rsc204 21,866]

If you want an invisible model for use as a building, use the Open Grass Area as your lot template, since the building used there is invisible. This is much simpler when using PIM-X however, since it allows you to make a new lot, rather than start from a pre-existing one which may not always fit your needs.

In terms of props, I don't think there is a prop exemplar that exists for the invisible model, but that's easy enough to rectify, find one attached. Just add the Prop ID "0xe7e47319" to your family, multiple times if you want to increase the odds of an invisible prop appearing. The actual linked model is a Null Key, which means this prop needs no dependencies to work. The game knows not to display a model when a Null Key is used, so it won't trigger brown boxes either.

InvisibleProp-0x6534284a-0x8ef2328c-0xe7e47319.SC4Desc

6 hours ago, Psiman said:

"You can also check out the Maxis "Two Cans" family.  To use this family correctly, the Lotconfig should be changed.  The cans (which have garbage requesters) will never appear unless there is garbage on the lot.  Although, most of the Cans are invisible so you most likely wont see anything when their is garbage (seems even maxis didn't like "prop random chance")."

Like with the trees which were modified to operate differently, this functionality is very specific and designed to give a visual indicator garbage is building up. Without modifications, it wouldn't just work for what you are trying to do, far simpler just to make a prop, which I've done using PIM-X. This is a problem with the regular Maxis PIM, because it won't see models that are of the RTK0 type, nor will it show any without valid XML files embedded, which we don't have for the Maxis content. Another reason why PIM-X makes modding tasks much simpler.

[Psiman 177]

Thanks for the invisible model, but I'm intending to complete my parks megapack as dependency-free. Instead, I've used ad hoc prop families with nondescript bushes to achieve my aim.

[rsc204 21,866]

It isn't a dependency, it's just a prop exemplar, it links to a model already in the game. Perhaps I failed to mention, but you can freely re-distribute it, hence if you did choose to use it, you wouldn't need to link back here, but simply include it with your upload. Of course, it's totally optional, it took all of 30 seconds to make, so I've no expectations about it.

[Psiman 177]

Hmm, would the file you made need to be included in the megapack? Because I want it to be so that any .SC4LOT from the megapack can be added to the Plugins folder in isolation without needing any other files. So the megapack will include nothing but .SC4 files and a ReadMe.txt.

I'm not yet sure if I will need an invisible prop, anyway, but it would be a useful option.

[rsc204 21,866]

An SC4Desc file is an SC4 file, but yes in order to use it, you must have it installed. No such Blank Prop exists otherwise which will replicate this functionality.

I do understand the "no dependency" philosophy, but you'll soon start hitting brick walls if you are totally inflexible with it. What most users who look for No Dependency packages really want, it not to have to download third party packages to use yours. So any included resources are unlikely to be a problem in that respect.

[Psiman 177]

Thanks. I've pretty much done all the designing now and have managed to keep with in the limitations of vanilla. I might have used a random prop if my tree-lined path lots were going to be without bushes, but I thought they looked better with bushes, so I could manage the random factor by adding ad hoc trees to bush prop families.