Computer advice for SC4

[Mattyd 1]

Hey guys! 

I wasn't sure where to ask this, but thought here would be appropriate.

I'm not much of a computer person so I thought it best to ask the experts! I need a new computer    As my last one has passed away, like to the point where even I know it's cheaper to just buy a new one. But I'm not sure what to get! 

I really don't do much with my computer since I left school, literally just listen to music and play SC4. 

I bought myself Cities Skylines recently (on Xbox) to satisfy my city building needs. But I need mods I've had it a week and I'm hella board already! Not with the game itself, it's actually really good. I just need mods!!!!! 

Ive always had an apple computer, but I literally just want to play SC4 and Skylines so im not sure what to get next or what would be my best option if I went PC because I just have no idea at all. 

Apple has always been good for me playing SC4, but the new ones don't have a disc drive and the SC4 on the App Store was a nightmare! 

So please help, I need options and advice! 

Thanks 

[Fantozzi 4,067]

Almost everything they advertise is of less importance for SC4. It would be good if you can run SC4 from an internal SSD drive (attached to an appropriate bus), would be good to have a fast memory (instead a tremendous amount of slow memory - don't listen if they shout 32 gig memory! - less and faster is better than more and slower on SC4.

The same: the number of cores of the cpu doesn't count much but the speed/performance of the single core.

You can read performance tests online having an eye on data throughput and cpu power but have a look if they test only multicore performance or also single core performance. As SC4 can't use multiple cores the performance of all cpu cores working together doesn't tell much.

Graphic card power is less important (as far as I know all modern graphic adapters can handle the needs of sc4 - I play sometimes on a business laptop with shared memory graphics and it does run well).

About Apple I don't know. I believe the only real problem is - it's harder to get support for the SC4 part ...how to configure - if you can configure something.

As the much bigger task is to configure SC4 properly with newer drivers and operating systems. There are some very usefull topics about this here but maybe to ask a friend going through this topics together if you don't know all the tech talk. To set it up right - that's the crucial part.

Me, I had to learn quite a few things about my computer when I configured SC4 first time in 2009. For quite a while I played in standard resolution until I realized they post widescreen pictures here ... And even from modern 64bit-architecture this old 32bit game can get some little profit. But not from scratch, you'll have to adjust settings and do patches.

The maximum amount of memory SC4 can use is 2GB (if patched). This memory must be availabe in an adress space a 32bit software can, well, adress. This means, if you have a system with 8 GB SC4 can only place its data in the (logical, not physical) first 4 GB, the other 4 aren't reachable for SC4. Now, the problem is, the operating system itself is placing its own data there too - when you start up your system, it's the operating system first being loaded and it's like the primadonna in opera - me, I'm the most important, every other software comes second, so I claim space first. And they don't care a penny what is left for old 32bit programs. They think, modern software can adress the space above 4GB - where there's plenty of it - so why should I care how much of the lower area I occupy?

From Windows XP to Windows 7 up to Windows 10 the occupied adress space of the operating system dramatically increased. And with Windows 10 we are there, were things start to hurt SC4 - it claims and reserves 2GB itself (without any external processes). At least, that's what they say, as I don't own it I can't veryfy. But my operating System, Win7, with all external tasks running from startup, already occupies ~1,6 GB. So far no problem - 2,4 GB left and SC4 maximum is 2GB. But now imagine I have another application running that only can handle this adress space below 4GB. You see the problem - memory space soon gets limited for SC4 thanks to new architecture ignoring its needs.

That's why I would recommend - if it's only for playing SC4 - get you an old, used computer with an older operating system and put the money you safe on a big and fast SSD card. Imho, regarding SC4, this would be the best deal. 

But then ... actually they make cpus with 14 nanometers conducting paths. I remember 10 years ago they said, mankind never will be able to get below 45 nanometers. You know, that means more processing power with less energy consuption.  These are technical wonders. Really. A silcon atom has roundabout 0,2 nanometers = imagine a cord of a 70 atoms in diameter. Silly remark, no one can imagine that. But they do this kind of stuff! Well, one really must trust every single atom works correctly ...   If I had the money, me too, I would buy a cpu with 14 nm - just like you buy an italian sports car to say: "look  what I have!" And friends answer: "What - I can't see anything". Shure you don't see a thing - my Ferrari has a 14nm engine.

If only software would do the same and becoming thinner and thinner during the years. But meanwhile the conductors do, the programms bload and all the advantage hardware offers on efficiency is eaten up by hundreds of useless tasks. Really, hardware isn't the problem. The problem is that operating systems are consumer products they must fit everybodies needs and they must offer gadgets an spectacular graphics and they must meet the requirements of a consumer market not the requirements for runinng SC4. 

So you ask on hardware matching SC4 requirements. And that's easy. But to get an operating system matching the needs - that's the ordeal you'll have to go through. 

 

[jaredh 195]

I'm fairly certain  the OS memory issue Fantozzi describes isn't valid, at least post Windows 8.  Windows should be allocating virtual memory in the newer OSes and should give as much as the application requests.  I run SC4 on a computer with 32gb of memory with tons of other apps that started before it without any issue.

SimCity only knows it can request 4GB (2gb unpatched), so that's the max it will ever ask for.

Fantozzi, you should 4gb patch SC4......

[rsc204 21,808]

The problem with this type of question is that there are so many variables, a lot the decisions will really come down to your budget for such a machine and personal preferences.

Should you buy an Apple computer, my advice would be no. Why, well Apples are really more of a fashion statement than a working machine, the prices are at least double what you'd pay for an equivalent PC, and often the specs are really quite poor in some key areas. They are notoriously hard to repair/upgrade and I can not find a single reason to recommend buying one. Similarly some of the high-end PCs and laptops are much the same, you are simply paying for the design, which doesn't even mean you'll get a reliable set of hardware for your money either.

If you only want to play SC4, then a sensible mid-range PC for around $500 will probably suffice, ideally you want a dedicated GPU included. Single-core performance is what you need to get the best experience with SC4, after that an SSD will help a lot too. But since any new PC will come with Windows 10, you can forget about using the disks to install/play SC4, it won't work since the DRM "unlocker" was removed from the O/S completely. So one way or another, you'll need to buy a digital version of SC4 to use with it. The other potential headache is ensuring what you buy has a GPU that is compatible with the legacy needs of SC4. There is simply no easy answer to this question, you'll probably have to just see how it works. At least if you can't get dedicated DirectX hardware rendering to work, you have the fall back of Software Rendering, which should work regardless. It's just that performance and the game play experience is not as good in such cases. Of course that may not actually bother you hugely.

However, if you want to play Cities Skylines, you are going to need more power, much more power. 32GB Ram is probably useful, 16GB an absolute minimum. A good quality 4 core processor, an i5 is fine, but within reason a high end i7 is going to be better. The GPU will want to be a mid-high end unit, with as much dedicated V-RAM as you can afford. 4GB a minimum, 8GB is better, more may be helpful too. The base game runs OK on a decent rig, but the game's code is so inefficient that when you add lots of mods, you need a real beast to keep up with it. Even so, you're probably only looking around the $1,000 mark for a suitable machine.

1 hour ago, jaredh said:

Windows should be allocating virtual memory in the newer OSes and should give as much as the application requests.

VM has existed since Windows 95, it's nothing new and whilst it can allocate memory by utilising the much slower space on your hard drive for applications, that still has to work within the limitations of the 32-bit nature of apps like SC4. Using VM may work, but it destroys performance and can lead to much instability. But specifically VM is used when you're running out of physical system memory, it's got nothing to go with the allocation of memory in the address space.

You are right though that using the 4GB patch will alleviate most of the issues allowing SC4 to get it's full 2GB memory allocation.

5 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

If I had the money, me too, I would buy a cpu with 14 nm - just like you buy an italian sports car to say: "look  what I have!" And friends answer: "What - I can't see anything". Shure you don't see a thing - my Ferrari has a 14nm engine.

It depends though, if I buy a Ferrari and then use it to drive to the shops and commute to work, then clearly it's a bit mad to buy such a piece of engineering. But when you buy one and take it to the limits every day on a track, it's not like you could have done that with a Ford Mondeo.

Similarly a high-end PC can be very useful, but it really depends what you are using it for. Aside from some very special usage cases, gaming is about the only thing that will tax most PCs. How far you go with that depends on your budget and sanity, there is a point where you are pretty much paying for bragging rights. Just like the guy with the Ferrari that drives it like a family saloon everywhere.

5 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

That's why I would recommend - if it's only for playing SC4 - get you an old, used computer with an older operating system and put the money you safe on a big and fast SSD card. Imho, regarding SC4, this would be the best deal. 

I'm inclined to agree, but, as soon as you mention wanting to play C:S, that idea goes right out the window, you really will be needing a modern PC for that.

[jaredh 195]

That's not virtual memory you describe, that's call SWAP.

These are entirely different things.  SWAP is when you run out of memory and the OS starts putting stuff in memoy on the disk.

Virtual Memory is the OS compartmentalizing memory so that different processes cannot touch other process memory.  This is a security feature introduced by M$ in Windows 8 and is entirely exactly as I described, and 32 bit has nothing to do with it.  In windows 10, SC4 has no address space issues because the OS starts giving it memory addresses in its process space at 0x000000, as far as the process knows, nothing else is taking any memory and it has every memory address up to the 4gb line available to it.  In Windows 10, every process will be given memory segments virtually.  Absolutely no direct physical access is even possible without some serious code that circumvents M$'s OS security layer.  I doubt such a thing exists outside custom hardware drivers.

In fact, this was a very big hurdle the graphic card companies had to get past with drivers because they all were doing direct memory access.  Its possible they still are, but there is zero chance SC4 (or most other apps) are going to have any driver that can directly access the chips anymore unless they are hardware vendors.  These types of apps simply doesn't exist in modern OSes....the OS developers don't really allow it.  They really don't even want the hardware vendors doing it anymore......

[rsc204 21,808]

36 minutes ago, jaredh said:

That's not virtual memory you describe, that's call SWAP.

Nope, it's what Microsoft has called Virtual Memory since it's inclusion in the O/S, also known as the Pagefile:

See here, so far as I can see, Virtual Memory is still considered to be the same thing in Windows 10:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q=Wndows+10+Virtual+Memory&oq=Wndows+10+Virtual+Memory&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i13k1l4.93.4009.0.4686.23.17.0.0.0.0.379.1985.2j4j2j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..13.10.1980...0i10k1.pGIAiywJNio

In fact, looking here, it seems that the screenshot from Win7 above has not changed in Win10 either:

https://www.geeksinphoenix.com/blog/post/2016/05/10/how-to-manage-windows-10-virtual-memory.aspx (see image in step 6)

So Pagefile, Swapfile, Virtual Memory, all these terms refer to a process that manages memory by utilising your hard disk, just like I stated.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

VM basically can be all kind of memory on the physical side. VM is not MM (magic memory) but only a trick to adress space outside the working memory to be regarded as it was part of the working memory - to enslave every kind of memory for work. Sadly as a Windows user you aren't free to say this is the graphics cards memory or the memory of another computer attached or the cloud. BTW - that's another advantage of SSD storage. But still compared to dedicated memory and especially how memory chips are connected with the cpu - the processing speed is terrible much slower. As @rsc204 said, it may lead not only to performance loss but also to instability, dependend on the software. That's the only reason why it's good to leave enough physical memory to SC4 in the lower adress space.

One could say - the swap file is the physical part of the VM - where the wizzard puts the rabbit for real when performing his trick.