The SimTropolis House of Worship

[moganite 4]

Frndofyaweh

i am prepared to forgive you now that i have had some time to cool down, but i would expect the same if I did the same thing to anyone else. The use of names is a touchy subject online it is the main representation of us. Also everyone makes mistakes and if i want others to forgive my transgresions I must also learn to forgive the transgresions of others.

Yes we can remain on friendly terms as i feel we have alot in common. Apart from the belief in god I have afeeling I have been asking too many questions or pushing a bit too hard but without questions we cannot progress to any sort of agreement or truth.

Now back to the disciussion

Using your example Frndofyaweh killing is only justitfied only in the direst of situations that is when life is under direct threat or some other major crime is being commited. Even then if annother alternaive can be found the alternative is prefered as most people would rather not be directly responsible for someones death. The third alternative is that nethier person provokes agreesion but thats besside the point i guess.

[thesonofgray 0]

Dead Cultures: Should we save or preserve what is left of them? How will saving them, truly benefit mankind?

historically; history never stops civilizations from repeating their mistakes.

If God and Family are what is important, based in philosophic terms; We could assume that dead cultures are dead for a reason and thus should remain so.quote>

Sounds like Darwinism to me.

So I guess we should just let all the polar bears die out in a decade or so cause I mean, if they can't deal with global warming, well, that's just too bad then now isn't it.

Poor fuzzy wuzzy bears.

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: zelgadis

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: ephorex_77 ski: How is God too big to fit into one religion??

quote>

Because anything that humans do is, by definition, limited and God, by definition, is not. 

quote>

In Christianity, that is perhaps true, SkiGeek.  But not true of all religions.  The gods of Shinto are more powerful and most are more reasoned than humans, but not unlimited by any stretch of the imagination.  In fact, one of the many reasons that I am a Shintoist is that I don't believe it is possible for any being to be absolutely unlimited. 

On the other hand, I don't believe that the Christian god is unlimited either.  If he was absolutely unlimited, it wouldn't have taken 6 days to create the world nor would he have needed a rest afterwards.  He could have done it all in less than a nanosecond.

ISFquote>

 

Oh??

God could have but if you take the Bible literally (which I don't), then He did it in 7 days. But the main question we should be asking ourselves is "Who gives how long it took Him to do it??" Isn't the main thing that God did it at all?? Just because God created the world in 7 days instead of spontaneously doesn't mean anything at all. It doesn't, by any stretch show a lack of omnipotence. 

Honestly, it's ridiculous. Say I wanted to write a word on paper. Instead of writing the word all at once, I wrote it letter by letter over the space of a week. Does that mean I couldn't have written it all down at once?? Does that show that I'm "weak" for not showing my full literary abilities?? Rubbish!!

Besides, I don't believe that many people believe the world was created in exactly SEVEN days. I think the 'days' are actually representing a certain period of time, or just a period of time in general. What IS relevant is that God initiated the making of the world and that He had a design and a hand in it.

[Zelgadis 638]

Sheesh, I was just expressing a little thought I had.  Calm down.  I just happened to think of something that appeared to be a discrepency to me.

Another little thought, your argument suggests that God is constrained by time.  Another limitation.  Humans are constrained by time, hence the "one letter at a time" sort of writing.  Any god who is truly limitless would simply think a word and it would be.

Another of my little thoughts:  Could existence have been created, say, 20 years ago?  Or even last week?  Any god who is limitless could have done it.  Not only would he have created what we are now, he would have created everything that we have been, including thousands of years of human history.  And none of us would ever know the difference.

I think about these things as I approach the age of 30, so I can have an excuse when I say "I'm 20!" 

ISF

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Besides, I don't believe that many people believe the world was created in exactly SEVEN days. I think the 'days' are actually representing a certain period of time, or just a period of time in general. What IS relevant is that God initiated the making of the world and that He had a design and a hand in it.quote>

Actually quite a few people do seem to believe in a literal seven day creation event or young earth creationism, and it is a very influential viewpoint.  For example the Institute of Creation Research, Answers in Genesis, Creation Research Society.  Even those who are not literal creationists may extensively quote literal creationist ideas in support of their own.

Humans are very curious creatures, and by nature want to know where they came from, how they came to be, why they exist and that their existence has a purpose. These are the very questions religion strives to answer, and the reasons so many people turn to religion to find those answers. The question of whether the creation event was literally seven days or a longer period of time, or if a supreme being or naturalistic forces were responsible,  is very important to most people's faith or world view. There are many different interpretations of this, even within Christianity itself.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Zelgadis: God marveled at His creation. The times are for our reference mainly. Time is only relative in a physical sense, like Einstein says; Spirit is light, God is ultimate light, Time is not relative at the speed of light, or where and who, God is.

The Bible happenes to be very scientific, in it's nature, and many other things at the very same time. This is why it is called, Living Words.

Just like I enjoy creating my rendered animation frames; God also enjoyed making a home for His children. Maybe God really did take 7 24 hour days, or maybe He enjoyed it for 7000 years.

Moganite: Yes, you are right. Why did I even do that? I didn't realize the harm it could do. 

I really appreciate you making those points to me, also. I still need to learn some better Forum manners, it seems.

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: frndofyaweh Zelgadis: God marveled at His creation. The times are for our reference mainly. Time is only relative in a physical sense, like Einstein says; Spirit is light, God is ultimate light, Time is not relative at the speed of light, or where and who, God is.

The Bible happenes to be very scientific, in it's nature, and many other things at the very same time. This is why it is called, Living Words.

Just like I enjoy creating my rendered animation frames; God also enjoyed making a home for His children. Maybe God really did take 7 24 hour days, or maybe He enjoyed it for 7000 years.

quote>

Interesting thought.  While it doesn't alleviate my musings completely, it is a plausible theory.

BTW, I thought that God took 6 days to create the world and rested on the seventh.  That's what is written, yes?

ISF

[Vandy 110]

Hello, All.

Just thought I'd pop in for a moment and let y'all know I've continued to follow this thread with quite a bit of interest and would like to share some personal thoughts and opinions with you.

The text that follows comes from my own study of the Word, my own personal convictions and the conviction in my heart given by the Holy Spirit.  I am not going to quote scripture (directly), stand on a soapbox and shout or, suddenly, fall down in the aisle, roll about and quiver like a snake.

It is possible to be a Christian and not know Christ.  It is possible to believe in God and not be saved.  It is possible to have the knowledge of the Word hidden in your heart and still not believe.  Yes, it is even possible to confess your sins and acknowledge Christ as the Lord and still not be counted in the Book of Life.

Coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ is a life-changing experience.  Falling down at the foot of the cross and crying out to Christ to forgive your sins is a heart-wrenching, life-changing experience.  Confessing with your mouth that you are a sinner and asking for forgiveness of those sins is an act that must be consciously and honestly taken -- not hedged, not bartered for, not conditional at all.

If a person attempts to "be saved" and holds back on any of these points, he or she is only fooling themselves, not God.  Confessing your sins and accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is an all-or-nothing proposition.  When you rise from the foot of the cross, it is as a newborn person -- the old man/woman and his/her sins have been forgiven and cast into the lake of forgetfulness and the new man/woman rises with Christ in their heart and the Holy Spirit guiding their life.

Much can be said (and has) about the "excuse" of killing for Christ.  Personally, I'm a bit skeptical (well, quite a bit skeptical) of the motivation of the Crusades.  I cannot accept that my being a Christian gives me the right to purposely go out and make war on someone.  I have a duty, as a Christian, to witness and speak the Word but that duty does not include killing someone who won't hear it or become a Christian.

As to literal interpretations of biblical texts, it can be a very dangerous and slippery road to travel when becoming an interpreter of a divinely written passage.  I personally believe the Bible and its content is the divinely inspired and literal written Word of God.  However, I will not define the word literal as I can only use the human context of the word.  I can and will state that God made the Earth in 6 days, however; I cannot honestly state that God made the world in only 6  human days as I don't know what a "Godly day" is.

If I may repeat myself from an earlier post, my faith is all the evidence I need to believe.  As for all of the unknowns that people keep commenting on, I stand on the following scripture (I know, I said I wouldn't quote scripture but this is the one exception):

Deuteronomy, Chapter 29 and Verse 29 states the following:

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

Once I've passed on to see my Father, I will get the chance to learn of all the mysteries and unknowns (the secret things) that have troubled, confused and otherwise not been known to man while on the Earth.

Y'all have a great evening and a wonderful Sunday.  I know I will.

Regards, 

Vandy

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: zelgadis Sheesh, I was just expressing a little thought I had.  Calm down.  I just happened to think of something that appeared to be a discrepency to me.

Another little thought, your argument suggests that God is constrained by time.  Another limitation.  Humans are constrained by time, hence the "one letter at a time" sort of writing.  Any god who is truly limitless would simply think a word and it would be.

Another of my little thoughts:  Could existence have been created, say, 20 years ago?  Or even last week?  Any god who is limitless could have done it.  Not only would he have created what we are now, he would have created everything that we have been, including thousands of years of human history.  And none of us would ever know the difference.

I think about these things as I approach the age of 30, so I can have an excuse when I say "I'm 20!" 

ISFquote>

 

Well, it comes back to the argument about "Can God make a stone so large He can't lift it??"

I haven't read up much on this, but God's omnipotence is confirmed by all Christian denominations as well as nigh on all other religions. For the Church, God's omnipotence is the power of God to effect what is not intrinsically impossible. For instance, God can't make a square (adjective) circle or a black (adjective) white. 

There is also a difference between what theologians call absolute power and ordinary or regulated power. For instance, God has decreed that man shall not live forever (as mortal creatures). This is an example of regulated power; Heavenly decrees. God can preserve man from death indefinitely, as He is all-powerful and can exercise absolute power, but this would be in contradiction with His previous decrees. 

But really, I don't like discussing this topic as we cannot be sure of God's power. God's power and His omnipotence are far beyond our capabilities of comprehension.

zel: Yes, that is what is written. But there are also many thing written in the Bible that cannot be taken literally or at face value. This mixture of literal and figurative language in the Bible is the reason why Catholics have the Catholic Church as the sole and final arbiters of the Bible. Otherwise (as is evidenced by the 34,000 or so Protestant denominations), we have never-ending splits over which interpretation is correct.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

Vandy: The wiseman of Our House, friend. Sorry to put you in the spot-light, but I think I look up to you, in a way. You listen(read)carefully and are patient in your replies, with accurate perspectives. Surely, by God above, you stand on firm ground, in your statements.

Every time you comment here; I start remembering all these sunday school lessons, through out my life. Very refreshing and motivational for me.

Thank you for being close by and God Bless you in Jesus' name.

I will... and you enjoy your Sunday also, Vandy.

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: ephorex_77

Well, it comes back to the argument about "Can God make a stone so large He can't lift it??" quote>

True.  But perhaps more of a paradox than a discrepency.  But I have heard that before.  I've heard others try to use that theory to disprove the existence of God.  But that doesn't really work.  Like the paradoxical theories of time travel, it doesn't really prove anything.

I also agree that the bible isn't a 100% literal document.  I just brought the aforementioned question up as a little itch in my brain that needed to be scratched.

But really, I don't like discussing this topic as we cannot be sure of God's power. God's power and His omnipotence are far beyond our capabilities of comprehension. quote>

Perhaps it is beyond our capabilities of imagination.  But that never stops me from trying.  Indeed it is the things that I can't be sure of that often sparks my imagination the most.  Wondering what it would be like to meet a god.  Or what it would be like to be a god. 

The latter would probably end in disaster though.  History has shown, after all, that those with power who believed they were gods only lead their people to disaster.  Doesn't stop me from thinking about it though.  After all, I'm only human. 

ISF

[Joesocwork 4]

I think that "itch" is also part of the natural desire to grow and reach beyond one's self. That desire is one of those innate feelings that lead me to believe in Deity.

[thesonofgray 0]

Um, I have a question for all of those who claim to be learned in the Bible. This is an honest question.

What passages or stories in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally?

There are many things in literature that can hint towards symbolic text (and also literal text). And I have read many things that point out the very literal text in the story of the creation of Earth and life by God. I'll scrounge up references if they are wanted. Take, for example, the reference to a 'day' as one day/night cycle - meaning a morning and an evening. By practically including this definition of a 'day' in the same passages with the creation by God in 'seven days' really points to the literal meaning of the story.

I most definately have read some things in the Bible that are obviously symbolic, but those do not include the story of creation. So for those who say that parts of the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, I would like to know what parts you think those are.

The fact that many seem to pick and choose what was 'real' and what they can pass off as symbolic is just another reason why I find it hard to believe in any of this. But that's just me.

[moganite 4]

I know what it is like to have a small portion of gods power thanks to computer simulations lol. I also have the power to obliterate any simulation I don't like and for no particular reason just cause i felt like it. Does that mean we are at gods mercy as far as the fate of humanity is concerned? That is just why I find it extremely hard to belive there is a god because if there was anything that displeased him couldn't he just poof make it disapear? Or what a bout the Undo button i can bet he wishes he could have one of those. Then there is reality what is it? does reality need to have observers to exist? ..... the corrally is that in Genisis until you had observers to make sense of everything it was meaningless if there was no life to observe the world that was made. In big bang theory it would be until 3.8 billion years ago. There is this chunk of history that might as well not exist in both. It is only our perceptions that make something real and if there are no observers can anything be real.

The other question I have is what did god do before day 1?

As far as the bible goes ther are as many interpretations of the bible as there are belivers which one is right? is there a right one?

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

I agree with you there Zelgadis: Being very imaginitive myself,; I too enjoy seeking the truth. my whole life has been that search and after many let downs and illogical endings, I chose my faith in God and His Word. Now I enjoy how easy I find the solutions to all questions, through Gods wisdom.

been into the Bible my whole life though and there hasn't been one single time; where God has let me down, or not gave me a logical conclusion.

Thesonofgray: Exactly my point, friend. I take it all literally and have found that even the parts that are symbolic or considered metaphorical, are also literal at the same time.

When Jesus taught lessons in parables; the Bible tells us, just when He was about to do so. parables(usually in red print) are a similarity between our spiritual selves and God and the physical us or aspects of the universe. 

3 signatures or markers, in three plains of existance, that parallel each other exactly.

Life is always three.

Yes; I believe the book of Revelation is literal, for the record.

the seven churches written to by John in revelation; were real churches in that day and literally they existed. they also are symbolic and are parallel, of 7 major churches of present day.

seven being symbolic of completeness, will become one and be complete, literally.

That is happening now, in present days. Even here in this forum, where for the first time we ourselves can instantly interact, get to know and experience those other churches.

What other time in history, could we get to each other this way? I chat with a Hebrew student on-line, who has shown me wonderful things about the original Hebrew Books! Knowing such a friend like that, is a new concept! Something that most likely, would never happen in a persons lifetime, just a decade ago!

The completeness is the realization that we all have one thing in common: we all know Christ died for us, no matter what else.

each one of us, who believe in this house, has shown all of us something about themselves and their faiths, that we all can embrace as Gods truth: RiverCocytus, Ephorex_77

Frndoyaweh belongs to an American Baptist church, but I think we need Bishops. We have something wonderful missing in our organizations and administration.

Vandy is showing us the sheer faithfulness of his church and his beliefs. I really do, wish we all could have that, in  abundance!

You mentioned running down the aisles, shouting a-mens etc, Well I say A-MEN brother! I agree! What is so wrong with bursting with joy and celebration in Gods house?!

Catholic Church: Mass may be a wonderful and spiritual experience, but what if I started shouting praises out loud during the service, got out my pew and ran about, just a bit?

[Zelgadis 638]

Some of this kinda makes me wish my own religion had some kind of official book.  But alas, Shintoism doesn't.  Many of the stories been recorded relatively recently. 

On the other hand, the many variations of Shinto stories are fascinating in itself.  The overall stories themselves are pretty much the same, but they all vary in some of the details.  The story of Amateratsu and Heaven's Cave has a "clean" version and a "bawdy" version.   I've usually found that children's books are more likely to print the "clean" version.  I prefer the "bawdy" version. 

It could also explain Shinto's lack of a central dogma and emphasis on individual worship.  My shrine (my church, in a sense) is in my house, both literally and figuratively.  I reckon that's one of the major things that attracts me so much.  I agree that it's certainly not for everyone, but it works for me.

@frndofyaweh:  (Man, I have a terrible time trying to spell that...)  Anyway, it is funny what you said that God has never let you down nor failed to give a logical conclusion.  Funny to me, that is, because Shinto gods are not to be trusted fully.  Some of them are not to be trusted at all.  But I actually prefer this personally for two reasons.  First, I do not believe that infallibility is possible.  But more importantly, dealing with fallible spirits and gods has plenty of important life lessons to teach.  Shinto stories about gods are still amazingly pertinent in today's society when dealing with shady people.

But I digress.  My primary point here was just to point out with interest that this appears to be a spot where our respective religions are completely flip-flopped.

ISF

[RiverCocytus 0]

Zel: think 'friend of yaweh' and remove the vowels from friend (as they used to do when converting the Lord's name to the tetragrammaton: YHWH)

Hmm, I like the discussion going on, I do.

thesonofgray: We have to take the Word of God at face value unless it clearly does not make sense literally. For instance (from my reading) Christ says to the robber who repents that he will be with him today in Paradise. Clearly 'today' as in 'this 24 hour period of planetary rotation' might not work out correctly. I think 'Today' is not literal in that sense, because other evidence in the scripture points out that for consistancy's sake, such might not be the case.

Paul says that on the day of judgement the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ shall arise to meet him in the air. If we believe that the day of judgement is yet to come, and that Paul speaks the truth literally, then the robber who died in Christ shall not rise that same day, but on the day of judgement. Also, you might consider that 'paradise' is possibly figurative instead of literal?

What you are talking about is what is so fascinating about the scripture! In some ways, it is like a big puzzle. If we are driven by faith, we know that there is a completed form of understanding somewhere within the works called the Holy Bible, and we will do our utmost to come to it.

Zel; this is what is different about God. The greek and roman gods were similar; they were to be respected, but many (such as Poseidon) were not to be fully trusted. In this way, it is clear to me that the Greek and Roman gods are man's projection of himself apon the divine.

In some cases, religions may have been worshipping honest-to-God demons or spirits. But these are not God; they did not create the world.

Yes. a relgion is a formalized/ritualistic practice. In this way, 'The Way' is not a religion. What truly constitutes Christianity is not rituals or practices but a relationship.

This is how Christianity differs from say, Islam. Islam requires certain rituals and practices be done daily. The trouble with this is that to be a correctly practicing Muslim you must either not be able to go to certain places (which might impede your religious practice) or you will have to alter your world/state/government so that your practices are enabled.

One of the spiritual powers that God grants is to be In the world but not Of the world. This is to say that a follower of The Way could walk the ghetto; live off nuts in the wilderness; fly in a spacecraft; be naked in a solitary confinement cell in Cuba; what a Christian has is indispensible. No objects are required; no special rituals are mandated.

He who prays (speaks to God) need not do it aloud; or in a quiet place; or on a mat.

He who meditates (listens to God) need not say a mantra; he could be anywhere, at any time.

He who worships God can do so without speaking, or even moving.

Alright, so isn't praying, meditating, worshiping, and communion, baptism, etc... ritual?

True; but like I said before the actions themselves are not what is important. Some people have been baptised more than once, becase the first time they just got wet. Of course, some Churches use baptism as a symbolic entrance into the Church, an official aknowledgement of joining the community of Christ.

"Do this in rememberance of me" said Christ. We have greatly symbolized this event; but the early chruch may have simply had a feast, a meal where the Bishop was present and the whole of the congregation; and which was done in rememberance of the death and ressurection of Christ. Not so much a ritual. Christ did not say "Do this once a week..." or "Do this once a year...." it was not a ritual.

Ok. Going to do some stuff. Keep it up in 'ere!

[Zelgadis 638]

RC:  One could say that the primary difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity is based on a principle of "salvation by faith" whereas Islam is based on a principle of "salvation by works."  Hence the Five Pillars.

There are, however, exceptions for those who, due to infirmity or other reasons, cannot perform the works.

As far as I can tell, this is one of the few absolutely unifying principles of all Islam.  I've met many Muslims, including conservative and even liberal ones.  But most seem to agree on the Pillars.

But that's just my perspective.  I studied Islam in college, but I'm no expert by any standard.

My own religion, Shinto, does not have any specific means of salvation at all.  In fact, there is really very little focus on the afterlife.  Shinto's primary focus is how to live in the here and now.  I gave up trying to figure out what the afterlife might be like long ago (assuming there is one) and resigned myself to the conclusion that I will never know until I do die.  Shintoism helps me keep my focus on living a good life now.  I'll cross that afterlife bridge when I come to it.  (Hopefully after many more decades.)

There are hints though.  A few Shinto stories mention both a heaven and an underworld, but they're rather vague.

Shintoism does have a creation story as well.  Though it varies like most other Shinto stories.  Most common, perhaps, is that heaven and earth were once an integrated mass, and, like sediment, the more pure element of heaven floated to the top and the heavier, "gross" element of earth settled to the bottom.

ISF

[ephorex_77 0]

Originally posted by: zelgadis RC:  One could say that the primary difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity is based on a principle of "salvation by faith" quote>

For the Catholic faith, that is not true. We are saved by grace alone. That grace we do not accept by "faith alone" or by "works alone". We accept that grace by faith working in charity. 

Catholics certainly do not accept the Protestant notion of "once saved, always saved". It is as though the knowledge of who God is, what He does and His ability to work miracles is enough to save a person once and for all. Even satan knows who God is, His ability to work miracles and His almighty power (having been cast out of Heaven by God for his pride). Does that mean satan is saved?? He definitely knew God a long time ago. Does that knowledge save him?? Obviously not.

We are not saved by faith alone in Jesus. Catholics don't say to ourselves, "I was saved by by Jesus at 5:45 pm on the 4th of March, 1995 when I got down on my knees and confessed that I loved Him". That is simply not the case. None of us can be sure of our salvation. Indeed, St Paul and many of the other Church Fathers and the saints of the Church were not sure of their salvation. St Joan of Arc was supposed to have said something along the lines of "If I am not in a state of salvation, then I beg my God to put me there. If I am, then I beg my God to preserve me in that state". 

To focus on the heart in our relationship with God without the mind (doctrine, sacramentals), leads to heresy, subjectivism and incessant splitting and squabbling. This is an approach that leads by using "past experience and feelings". God does not work by your hunches or your "feel-good" methods. 

Similarly, to focus only on doctrine and on strict rituals is focussing overly on the mind, and not on the heart. This means that we become as the Pharisees who were so hell-bent (forgive the pun) on the Law that they forgot kindness, love and charity. 

As you can see, Catholicism (being the largest Christian denomination), is not a religion of "salvation by faith". We are a religion of "salvation by grace, through faith working in charity".

[Zelgadis 638]

Ephorex:  Ah, didn't know the grace part.  I learned my Christianity in a Protestant (specifically Baptist) college.  So I readily admit the bible classes that I took, which were taught by a Baptist minister, were a bit biased.

ISF

[Boggy1 45]

zelgadis: Your post on Shintoism got me interested (because I've never heard of it before), so I looked it up and I think it's a really really 'cool' religion. One thing that I've hated about Christianity and other religions, is that they treat animals as inferiour life. And I really love the fact that Shintoismistic (:s) people believe that the Kami can take on the form of animals, nature etc. which I have to say, is a really 'cute' idea. I also love the fact that you don't need to truly believe in Shintoism to go to the afterlife. One thing that has really bugged me about other religions, is that you usually need 'blind faith' in the Being so get into the 'good' afterlife.

It also seems to be very like Buddhism, which is what I believe in at the moment, so, there is even more kudos to Shinoism.

[TheCrybKeeper 301]

RiverCocytus: All of what you have said, friend. Very well put!

Ephorex_77/Zel: I have been SouthernBaptist, Nazarene, C.C.C.U., Methodist and American Baptist. One thing is for sure; someone taught me the grace part.

Evangalism training was the place, as I recall.

First we should define the meaning of grace: It is described in many ways in the Bible.

Grace described as:

all-abundant

all-sufficient

glorious

great

manifold

rich

undeserved

 

what entails Gods grace Ephorex? What does it mean to you?

Grace is the source of our:

 salvation

our faith

justification

forgiveness

consolation

[Zelgadis 638]

Actually, what I meant to say was that I didn't know about the "salvation by grace" part.  I do, however, know about grace.

Boggy:  Shinto and Buddhism coexist quite harmoniously, along also with Taoism.  Most Japanese find no contradiction in professing multiple faiths at the same time.  Many claim to be both Shinto and Zen Buddhist and practice both freely. 

Shinto is considered the religion for beginnings.  Births, weddings, new year, etc.  Buddhism is used for endings.  Deaths, end-of-year, and even final get-togethers before company staff rotations.

In another sense, Shinto is considered the religion used for understanding the outside world.  Buddhism is the one used for understanding oneself.

They actually compliment each other quite well.

ISF

[thesonofgray 0]

I like Buddhism.  It doesn't persecute like other religions.  Plus the statues of Buddha are just cool.   I have like a 3 foot tall very detailed wood carved antique Buddha statue in my room.  It's currently just sitting randomly on my floor since I don't know where to put just a large, beautiful piece. 

I'm just curious, Zelgadis: did you attend this Baptist college and, in the process, convert to Shintoism?  Of did you enter with the belief?  I'm just wondering cause I find it fascinating when individuals attend a primarily religious school (entering with the same beliefs) and then convert to another religion or no religion at all due to their time there.

Ok, I will post something more meaningful in like a week.  My head's about to explode due to finals.  AAAHHH poof

[RiverCocytus 0]

It is very common to enter a religious school (a Christian one) and never become a Christian. Catholic schools are notorious for being the best schools in regards to education, but as far as making people into catholics, its really hit and miss, and isn't the point of the school.

The way I see it, Catholic schools want to teach people to seek The Truth, (Veritas!) and to learn, question, observe, analyze, etc. What's Catholic about it is 1. Its run by Catholics 2. This drive for truth is biblically/faith based 3. Certain Catholic-related activities are required.

In this regard, there is no reason to expect that someone entering a Christian school of any kind will be 'converted' to Christianity; the service of the school to is educate. Christians (most modern ones anyway) do not believe you can force someone into the faith.

It reminds me of a man who trained a dog...

He did not force the dog to learn anything. But, he would expose the dog to various tricks and bits of instruction. If it stuck, he would reward the dog, and leave it alone. If it didn't, he would just drop it, and leave it for later. He might just never bring it up again. The dog learned a lot of tricks, and the ones he learned he retained and did not fail to execute when prompted to do them (they were the tricks he liked / had an affinity for.)

Teaching people can be much of the same. This explains why so much of public school is a failure. We try to use methods which can only teach discipline (drilling) to try to teach concepts. Both conceptualization and discipline are important, but its a looking-glass world where discipline is taught like concepts (dropped on you every once in a while, and if you don't get it, we'll come back to it...) and concepts are taught like discipline (ok, we're going to do more busy work! Lets review again! Algebra? Again! Lets learn derivatives again... lets learn trig AGAIN.... lets learn about the American Revolution AGAIN.... etc)

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My point, sonofgray, is that attending a religious school hopefully inspires one to seek The Truth. What direction that takes one in is pretty much unknown. I would say it took Zel in the direction of Shinto. I'd say Shinto is not 'The truth' but if what he says is true, that shinto is about how you live here and now and not about the afterlife, then it holds a fairly even level with a lot of things in regards to truthfulness-- the truth of how to live well in this life is actually a common thing, in fact, it is almost on the level with common sense. So in seeking the truth about only how to live your life on this world, you might find yourself almost anywhere.

Worldly wisdom can be found in the world. You just have to seek it.

As for the wisdom of God; it only comes from him. If you ever seek salvation, seek to have your life mean something beyond this temporal existance, then you might find yourself wandering again, Zel...

I personally think that Zen offers some of the best solutions to worldly issues, (though I do not follow any of its relgious claims.)

I like the 'zen method of fighting training' (don't know if its genuine...) you beat someone up until they learn how to fight back. Cruel... exceptionally cruel... but then again, probably the person will be a better fighter than anyone. They will have to force discipline apon themselves, and have to learn everything without any real formal instruction other than some hard knocks.

This method unfortunately has the side effect of creating mental disorders. Neat!

Back in the day, people would train people to swim by throwing them in a pond or lake. Some people became excellent swimmers, others acquired a new fear they had to overcome...

Then again, I think that Zen does not really care about your self-esteem or feelings, except that you should learn to master them, or at least deal with them in your own way.

The other thing I like about Zen is the idea that putting yourself in a state of utter confusion can create a revelation. When someone says something is 'zen' -- hopefully they mean that it is utter bewildering, but in such a way that it creates a new understanding spontaneously.

This idea is what is called 'Order out of Chaos' and is a naturally occurring phenomena in systems biological, chemical, organizational... etc. Things reach a certain point -- a certain non-equillibrium state, and spontaneously a new order is formed. Trouble is, what that new order will be is kind of.. well.. unpredictable. There are chemicals that mix freely until heated to a certain temperature or put at a certain pressure; then, spontaneously, these freely mixing chemicals become orderly, and instead of seeing just a mixed color, you see black, white, black, white... an at even interval, like the vibration of a crystal. Crystals of course are an example of this; the overarching order of the universe expressing itself literally because of the meeting of certain conditions.

I actually use this trick to learn things quickly. Immersion is what they call it in language learning; if I am doing something that I believe to be difficult, instead of reading a bunch of manuals, I simply plunge right in. Naturally, I am initially confused and bewildered, but immediately new understandings are formed like a series of crystals rippling through a solution.

There is an old saying: "Do that which is easy as though it is difficult and that which is difficult as though it is easy."

What I've experienced probably explains the second part of the statement; though I don't know if that is what the man who said it originally meant it to mean.

Of course, fear is an obstacle to this occurring; and Christianity has among other things removed my fear. (Or at least continually mitigates it ) Not having a fear of death because of a certainty in Christ interceding for us enables us to do great things.

I think the way I interpret the sayings of the saints; not being sure of their salvation is this

I'm not certain of my salvation; in my mind I cannot be certain that I am in a state of salvation. But I know Christ and I have faith that he knows me and on the day of judgement he will say "truly I have known thee; come, good and faithful servant."

About not being certain of it, its a mental thing that is hard to get your head around. In fact, this state of uncertainty... is kind of zen. It forces you to come to a new understanding about what faith is! The saints were saying, IMO, "Salvation isn't a one-go kind of thing, an act or decision, its not something you can say, "Ok, now I'm saved... moving on...!" it is something that you must have FAITH about!"

So I think that they had faith that they were saved, even if they could not be certain of it in the mental, logical sense.

I hope that edifies someone. Ok, back to work!

Edit: I always read what I write, and the more of my writing I read, I find that I am a desconstructivist in many respects; I have a tendancy to dismantle ideas and forms to find out what the parts mean. But the weird part is that like an engineer I re-assemble them into something useful (I hope.) So maybe I'm a reassemblist? A reconstructivist? A POST-deconstructivist? Wow. The words keep getting bigger

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: zelgadis

Another of my little thoughts:  Could existence have been created, say, 20 years ago?  Or even last week?  Any god who is limitless could have done it.  Not only would he have created what we are now, he would have created everything that we have been, including thousands of years of human history.  And none of us would ever know the difference.

ISFquote>

Quite an interesting point. My 11th grade history teacher spoke of an assignment he had been given in college once to attempt to "prove that yesterday existed". None of the 100+ students in the class could do it, and nor had anyone else done it in the professor's 20+ years of teaching the class.

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Many Jews hold the Torah sacred as absolute truth, written by god himself. Try this on for size: might it not actually be the truth, but only what god wants us to think is the truth?

Hey, religious conspiracy theory!

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: RiverCocytus

As for the wisdom of God; it only comes from him. If you ever seek salvation, seek to have your life mean something beyond this temporal existance, then you might find yourself wandering again, Zel...

quote>

Ah, a very Christian analogy.  And not one that I believe in, actually.  I've never wandered, nor will I ever wander.  It suggests being lost.  I am not lost, nor am I found.  I just am. 

Instead, I seek.  But I'm not lost, nor am I looking for something that is lost.  I seek that which I've never known before.  It is a puzzle with infinite pieces.  And I look forward to spending the rest of my life assembling it.  If there is an afterlife, I look forward to spending the rest of whatever assembling it.  Finding a piece is always a source of great interest.

The key is that I'm not seeking anything in particular.  Salvation, for example, is something that I don't even know exists.  If it's there, and I find it, hooray.  But I'm not actively looking for it. What I have learned as I get older is that puzzle pieces, whatever they may be, are often found in most surprising places.  And I also notice that I find more pieces when I'm not seeking a specific piece.

@thesonofgray:  I went to a Baptist college (specifically Georgetown College in Georgetown, Kentucky) because it is one of the best colleges in Kentucky.  I also went there because not a single person from my high school was going there.  I wanted a fresh start.

As for becoming Shinto (the word "convert" isn't quite right for this), I had a class at Georgetown called Eastern Religious Philosophies taught by Dr. Redditt.  It was there that I learned about Shinto for the first time.  I noticed that Shinto closely reflected my own beliefs and, on the urging of Dr. Redditt, I studied more about it.

A bit of irony perhaps, is that Dr. Redditt is an ordained Baptist minister. 

ISF

[jglei701 8]

Originally posted by: zelgadis I am not lost, nor am I found.  I just am. 

quote>

 

Very interesting, you just made a Biblical reference without even realizing it.

From Exodus 3

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . ^[b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

[thesonofgray 0]

So zelgadis is God?????!!!!!!!  wow

RC: Yes.  Very interesting.  But it still doesn't explain where I should place my Buddha statue. 

3 down. 2 more to go.

Up next: Thermodynamics

[jglei701 8]

One could argue that he made that claim... 

When I've had discussions with people who feel that we are all part of a "oneness" or that we all will transcend ourselves and merge into one great divine being, I am reminded of the story of the fall in Genesis:

Genesis 3

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

This is the first great deception... that we, ourselves, as humans (i.e. the creation) can aspire to be equal or greater than God Himself.  An additional interesting perspecive on this is found in Job 38 (and the rest of the book for that matter).

Lucifer himself believed this.  And look where that got him.