Rewriting History

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

This is the kind of pedantic nonsense up with which no one should put.

Mr. Wilson was one of the better presidents that the U.S. has had.  His views of segregation were no different than many at that time.  It is not incumbent on a student body to rewrite history.  I am sure these darlings have something better to do than march around complaining about the attitude of historical figures. 

While largely endowed, one must remember that this school was once dedicated to training Presbyterian ministers (only), and has expanded from pre-Revolutionary times to become one of the most prestigious institutions of higher education in the world.  Snotty attitudes by the current (minority) of the student body should be ignored by the administration.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

"And if all others accepted the lie which the party imposed - if all records became the same tale - then the lie passed into history and became truth." - George Orwell, 1984

The problem with colleges like that is that they are so polarized when it comes to things like this.  There is no redemption with them.  If a historical figure has done one thing not seen as socially acceptable by 21st century standards, then they are indisputably evil and should be eradicated from history.  Or, at least, that's what I get from this.

[MintberryCrunch 83]

Just more entitled college students being ridiculous and unreasonable--by SJW standards, no historical figure is up to par. I can't wait until I start college; you probably won't be able to say the word "pants" without offending someone. 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Entitlement is a very good choice of words.  The thing is that Princeton is an Ivy League school with a great deal of prestige.  If the university community doesn't step on these fools (one assumes they are sophomores), then education in the U.S. will receive an irrecoverable blow.

John C. Winterton,
Professor, Computer Science (retired).
 

[Fantozzi 4,068]

Many people here in germany don't know that many classic literature is censored. For example 'Huckleberry Finn'. Since about 2010/2011 (I'm not shure) in german editions the word 'n*gg*r' is replaced by the word 'slave'.

If you erase certain things from history - how to explain later generations where the progress was? You equal past and present. Change becomes invisible. My opinion.

  Edited November 21, 2015 by fantozzi  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Many people here in Germany don't know that many classic literature is censored. For example 'Huckleberry Finn'. Since about 2010/2011 (I'm not shure) in German editions the word 'n*gg*r' is replaced by the word 'slave'.

If you erase certain things from history - how to explain later generations where the progress was? You equal past and present. Change becomes invisible. My opinion.

That technique is called Bowdlerization and is frowned upon by all sensible people.  Political Correctness is a curse of our times. 

This is one of the reasons that I keep a copy of the King James version of the Bible in my library.  While it has been thoroughly polluted by earlier translators, I simply like the language which is more fitting for a book of mythology.  Modern versions give me dyspepsia.

[SteveMSim 275]

This is one hallmark of tyranny.  Eliminating history that does not agree with your agenda or ideology.  This is not that much different than ISIS blowing up those ancient temples in Palmyra.

[Easy Bakes 253]

How did these kids get into Princeton?

they don't seem to be smart enough to pass the entrance exams

 

[krbe 193]

This is one hallmark of tyranny.  Eliminating history that does not agree with your agenda or ideology.  This is not that much different than ISIS blowing up those ancient temples in Palmyra.

It is much different to ISIL. Just because you happen to disagree with someone doesn't make them ISIL/Nazis/Stalin. This is about eradicating the respect paid to a historical figure, not eradicate him totally.

If you want an analogy, such attempts are on par with what that orthodox Israeli newspaper does to females, where all images of women are edited out. A gathering of world leaders will for example see Angela Merkel disappear from the photo. Everybody knows she's still the Chancellor.

  Edited November 22, 2015 by krbe  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Now this is really a matter of rather fatuous political correctness.  It is a creeping disease that eventually winds up with the eradication of the historical person entirely.  The next thing is to reduce him to a footnote.  How many people know much about vice-admiral Byng?  A serving British Admiral who got into some sort of trouble, was disrated and executed by firing squad on his own flag ship.  You can read about it in a book titled 'At Noon Mr. Byng was Shot'.

[krbe 193]

Thanks for the history lesson.

I guess, that in America, it is wise to kill a president from time to time to encourage others.

[SteveMSim 275]

I remember when Christopher Columbus was blamed for all of the evils that happened during the European colonization of the Americas after his exploration of the Caribbean area.  He was being blamed for genocide, the enslavement of Native Americans and Africans, and so on.  There had been efforts to remove monuments to Columbus, rename places that were named after him, and replace the Columbus Day holiday (currently several California municipalities observe "Indigenous Peoples' Day" in place of Columbus Day). All Christopher Columbus do was "discover" and explore an unmapped part of the world, which led to Europeans colonizing it and bringing their evils with them.

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Remember that the winners write history.  Winston Churchill was quite frank about it: "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."

At this moment in time the ISIS movement is like the NAZI movement.  Abhorred by many, recognized as a serious thread by a few, but the awareness of these heretical criminal murderers is growing.  Eventually, the free people's of the world will overcome them, but with modern weaponry it may take a long time.  A full embargo against them will bring out the bleeding hearts, but I think it is time to let such hearts bleed.

[Sabretooth78 808]

I remember when Christopher Columbus was blamed for all of the evils that happened during the European colonization of the Americas after his exploration of the Caribbean area.  He was being blamed for genocide, the enslavement of Native Americans and Africans, and so on.  There had been efforts to remove monuments to Columbus, rename places that were named after him, and replace the Columbus Day holiday (currently several California municipalities observe "Indigenous Peoples' Day" in place of Columbus Day). All Christopher Columbus do was "discover" and explore an unmapped part of the world, which led to Europeans colonizing it and bringing their evils with them.

 

In discovering, he basically wiped out the Lucayan natives in his quest for gold and unwittingly founded the transatlantic slave trade.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ Oh, my friend, I think you need to amplify that a little.  Did Columbus do this personally?  And do remember Montezuma’s revenge (syphilis) which the Spanish sailors carried back to Europe.  The natives saw that disease as a kind of cold, but the Europeans had no immunity at all.  This rather deadly STD killed a lot of people including historical figures like Rob Roy.  The "pox" did a lot of damage right up to the 20th century.

[Sabretooth78 808]

Based on what I've read, he was far from innocent and did in fact practice what many of the followers did.

The revisionist history here is the whole tripe taught in American schools (at least) that he set out to prove Earth was round - something the Greeks and Egyptians had long ago discovered and contemporary Europe already knew.  Evidently in the 19th century the Knights of Columbus wanted an Italian role model - there must not have been too many options open for them to scrape the bottom of the barrel that badly.

[SteveMSim 275]

Many revisionist historians have been finding fault with historical figures, particularly if they're male and European.  History is not a pretty subject.  What was considered acceptable 200 years ago is considered atrocious today.  Some of the earliest Presidents of the United States owned slaves.  I have heard the Founding Fathers be denounced as a bunch of white male, slaveholding hypocrites.  Abraham Lincoln, before being elected President, did not oppose slavery; he only opposed the spread of it.  More recently, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt ordered the imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans, but I don't hear of activists demanding that places named after Roosevelt be renamed, nor his monument in Washington, D.C. be removed.  Martin Luther King, Jr. was reportedly a womanizer.  Everyone has their own faults.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The more history you learn, the more you understand some of the things that happened.  Example, the Roman civilization was completely open with respect to sex, and anything was acceptable.  One of the most common amulets worn by little boys was a clay phallus.  Even in today's rather loose company, some of the graffiti from the walls of Pompeii and Herculaneum that have been excavated recently are unrepeatable, especially on a PG13 site like this.  To a great extent, this is what caused a lot of the puritanical attitude among early Christians.  They were disgusted with the Romans.

However, no one has suggested obliterating these two archaeological sites.  Meanwhile, ISIS is blowing up monuments in ancient cities like Palmyra as idolatrous notwithstanding that they existed long before Islam.  There have been iconoclasts in every era.  Look at all the damage to the Greek and Roman statuary committed by various conquering outfits.

On the other hand, dismantling NAZI symbols from German monuments such as the Brandenburg Gate was a matter of putting it back into its original state.  And after some 70 years tearing down statuary erected by the Soviets is not frowned on after the collapse.  A lot of this has to be taken in context and with a grain of salt.

And do remember that history is always written by the winners.  Archaeologists often write the real history after digging it out.  There is no evidence, for example, that the pyramids of Egypt were built by slaves, Hebrew or otherwise.  Latest theory is that all citizens of Egypt were required to work on the pyramids as a civic duty for part of each year and they it was well organized and the builders were rewarded with their keep and a salary.  Recently, worker villages have been uncovered in the Valley of the Kings.  Some of the things they are finding out about the height of the Egyptian civilization are utterly astounding.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

Many people here in germany don't know that many classic literature is censored. For example 'Huckleberry Finn'. Since about 2010/2011 (I'm not shure) in german editions the word 'n*gg*r' is replaced by the word 'slave'.

If you erase certain things from history - how to explain later generations where the progress was? You equal past and present. Change becomes invisible. My opinion.

Texas had gone even further, replacing African "slaves" with simple "workers" in its social studies textbooks, while going to lengths to points out Europeans forced "as indentured servants to work for little or no pay."  This little discrepancy was raised last month by a Houston mother:  "Texas Mother Teaches Textbook Company a Lesson on Accuracy."  We are told this was a minor error, but with enough such minor errors, we can rewrite history:  the North was the oppressive enforcer of indentured servitude, while the South was the innocent land of well-cared-for workers, and no one is to mention the S-word.  Sadly, that for too many is the history of the so-called "War of Northern Aggression," and whatever causes we might attribute to that war, we must deny any involvement of the institution of s------.  It is openly known that Texas Board of Education textbook reviewers long have had political agendas, but, as they decided last week, "we don't need academics to fact-check our textbooks."

Speaking of that which is not said at all...

I remember going to Kinokuniya, a huge Japanese book retailer, looking on behalf of a friend for interesting books with a Japanese perspective on Japanese aviation during World War II.  I actually couldn't find such historical books, not merely on the narrow topic of wartime aviation, but on the Pacific War period at all.  I could find histories on the earlier Meiji and Taisho eras as well as the later postwar recovery, but for the actual war in between there was nothing, and its hard to call it a "gap" because there isn't even a category section to leave any gap.  Maybe it just doesn't sell, or maybe it is yet another one of those culturally impenetrable things inscrutably left unspoken.  The closest I could find were historical fiction novels in the women's romance sections with covers of tragic housewives and weeping girlfriends waving off their dutifully soldiering men, who no doubt will sacrifice themselves in the end for the sake of their loved ones back home.  However, I did find a small scale modeler's corner, which had wonderful books and high-quality magazines overwhelmingly devoted to World War II machinery, especially Japanese naval ships and German tank models, which were of such astounding detail that I had to attribute it to male-targeted mecha love.  Later, the movie "Eien no Zero" ("Eternal Zero") came out, becoming one of Japan's top highest-grossing films of all time, and which combined both worlds with obsessively detailed CGI models of aircraft carriers, Zero fighters, and romantically patriotic fiction.  Even I wept after watching that film on DVD, and I know better!

 

 

[Fantozzi 4,068]

The more history you learn, the more you understand some of the things that happened.  Example, the Roman civilization was completely open with respect to sex, and anything was acceptable.  One of the most common amulets worn by little boys was a clay phallus.  Even in today's rather loose company, some of the graffiti from the walls of Pompeii and Herculaneum that have been excavated recently are unrepeatable, especially on a PG13 site like this.  To a great extent, this is what caused a lot of the puritanical attitude among early Christians.  They were disgusted with the Romans.

Are you shure about the 'early christians'? I'm asking because I thought the phobia against antique nudity startet in the 16. century alongside with inquisition.

This once was an antique venus (?) statue. In the 16. century it was posed outside the city gates of the german (origin roman) city of Trier. For christian citizens and travellers it became a ritual (game) to throw stones at it. So one could say: this what you can see in the picture is what middle age phobia made out of the female body.

 

However, no one has suggested obliterating these two archaeological sites.  Meanwhile, ISIS is blowing up monuments in ancient cities like Palmyra as idolatrous notwithstanding that they existed long before Islam.  There have been iconoclasts in every era.  Look at all the damage to the Greek and Roman statuary committed by various conquering outfits.

On the other hand, dismantling NAZI symbols from German monuments such as the Brandenburg Gate was a matter of putting it back into its original state.  And after some 70 years tearing down statuary erected by the Soviets is not frowned on after the collapse.  A lot of this has to be taken in context and with a grain of salt.

'Original state' often is the same: a point of view, based on the knowledge of present times. The Brandeburg Gate is a good example because today it has not his original state - there were many different monuments at this place, all called 'Brandenburg Gate' and it would be an infinite discussion which of them is the 'right one'.

Well. Sometimes people want to leave the traces history laid. They want to change, leave the path, taking a new direction. And then they behave this way: they destroy the old, forbid the writings by law and so on. So far there is no difference between ISIS destroying ancient monuments and a democratic germany that destroys the signs of third reich.

In my opinion, one could learn the difference between censorship and the change (of rules) quite from language. To divide in 'bad words' and 'good words' many people think, they can control thoughts. 

One could say - censorship is when things are destroyed or forbidden, because you shouldn't think or know about them. To surpress knowledge. But cultural change is, when things become obsolet.

Don't know. What justifies destruction?.

But I think it is important to separate censorship from cultural change - otherwise there is a big risk to condemn every cultural change as censorship. As PEGIDA - to call it censorship if members are charged for 'incitement of the people' (a german law).

It's not easy to divide what is censorship and what is a rule.

Germany has a law that forbids to make use of Nazi-symbols in an politicial context.  Many neo-Nazi shops sell CDs on the price of 14,88 Euros. 14 stands for 'fourteen words' (David Eden) and the 88 stands for a letter in the alphabetical order: HH. An abbreviation. So you had to forbid the price of 14,88 Euro to get rid of another Nazi symbol.

At the end censorship can't control thoughts. You extinguish one word from language. And a bunch new words raise. It's me dealing with language. Take away words and I'll try to say the same thing with the view words left. Censorship puts me under disability, steals responsability. So me, I lose more and more authority on my own language.

Is there any useful censorship? Or should every radicalist be free to agitate and make young people take up arms to fight for an ideology? 

I don't know. There must be a bottom line. But how to mark it?

 

(EDIT: cutbacks)   

 

 

  Edited November 23, 2015 by fantozzi  

[LexusInfernus 908]

Now this is really a matter of rather fatuous political correctness.  It is a creeping disease that eventually winds up with the eradication of the historical person entirely.  The next thing is to reduce him to a footnote.  How many people know much about vice-admiral Byng?  A serving British Admiral who got into some sort of trouble, was disrated and executed by firing squad on his own flag ship.  You can read about it in a book titled 'At Noon Mr. Byng was Shot'.

Oh big deal. You know how many historical figures have already been edited out of the history books? Or worse, never put in the history books in the first place? It happens all the time. 

If you were completely unaware of the history of the human race, and you were to start reading standard history textbooks, you'd probably come to believe that until the first feminist movements and the first civil rights movement, only white males made history. Africa was a place where people lived but nothing ever really happened until it got colonized, the American continents only became relevant to history after the Europeans landed there, the Middle East was only relevant in the context of being an enemy to Europe and Asia had a culture and civilization that was interesting but for the most part irrelevant to the bigger picture of history. 

Standard history is incredibly Eurocentric and consistently ignores the role of about 50% of the human race, to the point that most people probably believe that women didn't contribute much to society for the most part. 

And you know why this is the case? Because all those standard history text book are overwhelmingly written by white males. 

So if they rename a building, change the name from one white male to another with more acceptable political views or God forbid, a historical black person or woman, good for them. The students that are behind these kind of things have demonstrated to be far more engaged with history than the people that yell 'political correctness' and become angry at said students. 

  Edited November 23, 2015 by LexusInfernus  

[Sabretooth78 808]

Many revisionist historians have been finding fault with historical figures, particularly if they're male and European.

Well, despite my membership in that particular "class", or perhaps more appropriately, a descendant of it, let's face it, those guys did some pretty despicable things.  A lot of good things, for sure, but a lot of bad things, too.

[krbe 193]

 Standard history is incredibly Eurocentric and consistently ignores the role of about 50% of the human race, to the point that most people probably believe that women didn't contribute much to society for the most part. 

And you know why this is the case? Because all those standard history text book are overwhelmingly written by white males. 

Could this have anything to do with the fact that you're from Europe, an overwhelmingly white continent? Basic history (for me, that is) seems to be completely absent from Asia. Well-educated intelligent people with little to no knowledge of the French revolution, the holocaust or anything that has to do with the ancient Greeks, unless they actually studied it. Probably due to the fact that the standard history text books are overwhelmingly written by yellow males.

That an American president ought to be part of American history, is not an onerous proposal.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Could this have anything to do with the fact that you're from Europe, an overwhelmingly white continent? Basic history (for me, that is) seems to be completely absent from Asia. Well-educated intelligent people with little to no knowledge of the French revolution, the holocaust or anything that has to do with the ancient Greeks, unless they actually studied it. Probably due to the fact that the standard history text books are overwhelmingly written by yellow males.

That an American president ought to be part of American history, is not an onerous proposal.

No doubt that this is the case. But that doesn't change the fact that it gives a rather one sided image of history. If in Asia they don't teach you anything about the Holocaust or the French revolution, I'd say history class in Asia is also rather one sided. 

Also, no one is saying that Woodrow Wilson should be scrapped from the history books. They are only saying Princeton should rename the buildings that were originally named after Wilson, and some people here have claimed that doing so basically equals scrapping him from the history books. 

  Edited November 23, 2015 by LexusInfernus  

[krbe 193]

And part of that include slavery, segregation, and so on. It'll always be like that, and is their sanitised history really better? Naming a school teaching international affairs after Mr Wilson makes a lot of sense. I suppose there are far better candidates to name your schools after if it is teaching apartheid.

Winston Churchill was a racist, but that doesn't change his importance for the western world. It'd be dreadful if I would have to start walking through the Park of Equality and Consensus instead.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

A very good point indeed.  Now let us understand that I, at least, consider modern (21st century) western civilization to be thoroughly decadent.  Tendencies to make history taste better to suit the common taste is  only one of the things that is going on.  The chattering classes have more clout now due to the "social" networks, most of which are not worth the powder to blow the junque into the next room.

Everyone is concerned about privacy but think nothing about blabbing on the networks when they will be on holiday away from home.  The burgling classes and the protective services companies must be just laughing in their beer over these fools.

People are worried about security.  How many of them have a password on their WiFi server?  their personal computer?  And a good password at that?  I can assure you that 'secret' is not much of a password, nor is '1234' nor '1qaz' which I have seen people use.  My passwords usually contain several repeated letters in strange combinations, upper/lower case, numbers, special characters.  Some sites actually tell you what they consider a 'valid' password.  How utterly naive of them.  Cutesy use of numbers that can appear to be letters is also one of the silly things people do.  A good password should be at least 10 to 12 characters long, and probably a foreign phrase with some numbers and specials.  Something like 'As-tu bien dormi?'  If the site won't allow spaces in the password, then use underbars.  That phrase has 17 characters in it, by the way.  Hard for any automatic guessing program because of the number of combinations is getting close to NP complete.

One could go on about the abuses of 'entitlements' we see all around us.  However, let's take one last poke at the kids who graduate from school and can't find a job (in their field).  It doesn't occur to them that any job that pays anything is better than laying around complaining.  You can look for a better job while you are working and since you are working, you probably have contact with people who might give you a clue to one.  You can start building up a personal network this way simply by being polite and correct at what you are doing.

[Easy Bakes 253]

 

One could go on about the abuses of 'entitlements' we see all around us.  However, let's take one last poke at the kids who graduate from school and can't find a job (in their field).  It doesn't occur to them that any job that pays anything is better than laying around complaining.  You can look for a better job while you are working and since you are working, you probably have contact with people who might give you a clue to one.  You can start building up a personal network this way simply by being polite and correct at what you are doing.

How bout we have a poke at kids who graduate and still cant  even read?

 

[LexusInfernus 908]

And part of that include slavery, segregation, and so on. It'll always be like that, and is their sanitised history really better? Naming a school teaching international affairs after Mr Wilson makes a lot of sense. I suppose there are far better candidates to name your schools after if it is teaching apartheid.

Winston Churchill was a racist, but that doesn't change his importance for the western world. It'd be dreadful if I would have to start walking through the Park of Equality and Consensus instead.

Why would it be dreadful to walk around in a park called Equality and Consensus? Do you only derive your enjoyment from a park walk because its named after some historical figure?

And they aren't arguing that history should be sanitized. They are only arguing that perhaps its not a good idea to name a building after someone who argued that segregation was a good thing. Look, would you be surprised that people would act offended if some university called their history building after some Confederate general? Do you think people who lost relatives in one of Stalin's purges would be happy to get lectures in a building named after him? 

Personally I don't care if a building is named after Wilson. But then again, I'm Dutch and I'm white, segregation has never been something that would have affected me personally. But for people who were affected by it and in some cases still feel the effects of it, why should we call those people as some people here do 'entitled' and essentially deny their experiences because they don't match our own? Would it really hurt society that much to take into account the view points of people who have a different experience than the standard white male experience? 

A very good point indeed.  Now let us understand that I, at least, consider modern (21st century) western civilization to be thoroughly decadent.  Tendencies to make history taste better to suit the common taste is  only one of the things that is going on.  The chattering classes have more clout now due to the "social" networks, most of which are not worth the powder to blow the junque into the next room.

One could go on about the abuses of 'entitlements' we see all around us.  However, let's take one last poke at the kids who graduate from school and can't find a job (in their field).  It doesn't occur to them that any job that pays anything is better than laying around complaining.  You can look for a better job while you are working and since you are working, you probably have contact with people who might give you a clue to one.  You can start building up a personal network this way simply by being polite and correct at what you are doing.

One, the tendency to make history suit common taste is a tendency that has existed ever since we started paying attention to history. Its not new, its not of this time in specific, its not because we are supposedly 'decadent', it has always been like that. Indeed, the naming of the building after Wilson is evidence of this, as it takes into account his achievements as statesman, but brushes over all of his less acceptable views. Its history the way a white man would write it, focusing on the mans successes, ignoring his failures because they are failures that only really affect minorities and therefor irrelevant. And now when people point out his darker side, they get accused of cleaning up history when in reality they merely pointed out historical facts that people had just chosen to ignore?

Two, that talk about how the new generations are all spoiled and entitled little brats who just sit around all day complaining instead of working is again a view that is as old as recorded history. I don't think there has ever been a generation that didn't claim that the newer generations were all terrible. In this case, moaning about millennials is even less original because they are probably the most complained about generation in modern history. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@Easy Bakes:  Literacy is the job of the schools.  Failure to give failing grades is some kind of sickness on the part of the educaterers.  Schooling is not supposed to be palatable nor easy.  Failing grades are a tool to present the darlings with a dose of reality and prepare them for the real world.  Can we say that some schools deserve an overall grade of FAIL!  when they fail to teach the three R's?

What kind of teacher let's a kid go forward without the basic skill set?

[Easy Bakes 253]

 

@Easy Bakes:  Literacy is the job of the schools.  Failure to give failing grades is some kind of sickness on the part of the educaterers.  Schooling is not supposed to be palatable nor easy.  Failing grades are a tool to present the darlings with a dose of reality and prepare them for the real world.  Can we say that some schools deserve an overall grade of FAIL!  when they fail to teach the three R's?

What kind of teacher let's a kid go forward without the basic skill set?

yea you can say that but not out loud.

they are more concerned about school financing( keeping as many kids in classrooms as they can) and making the kids have good self esteem, but its self esteem  at the expense of not really ever achieving anything difficult or failing when you try something difficult. Most  kids are not that dumb nor self motivated enough to not take advantage of knowing that giving a half arsed effort will still get you Bs and Cs.