Is there an EV in your Future?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

EV Models from European Luxury Car Makers.

It appears that there are some serious subsidies available in some jurisdictions.

[Haljackey 17,268]

I bought a new car last year, and I am hoping it is the last gasoline powered vehicle I ever buy.

My next car doesn't have to be fully electric. There are some good advancements going regarding clean, efficient diesel or diesel-derived fuels, compressed natural gas, hybrid electric technology and hydrogen fuel cells.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Really depends on how long you keep your recent purchase, eh?  As EV technology spreads (the luxury demand will force charging stations), I think we can expect the EV to become more and more in reach of the average car buyer. 

The best things about EVs are: instant acceleration, quiet operation.  I would expect that the trend in "driverless" vehicles to embrace the EV.

What I would like to see is a sort of hybrid where you have a hydrogen fuel cell that charges up the battery for the EV.  Problems currently revolve around battery and cell space and mass.

As the demand for fossil fuels diminishes, there can be many more uses for petroleum derived goods.  Carbon isotopes are becoming more important, especially fullerene and graphenes.

  Edited September 16, 2015 by A Nonny Moose  
More information.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

If the gasoline engine was never invented, we would have enough petroleum to manufacture all the plastic, solvents, and other chemicals we humans could ever use (before food and land run out, though having more petroleum for manufacturing could help with solving that and no gasoline engine would mean WWI and suburbs would have been unfeasible)!

 

Depending on where I move to in 3 years and my driving skills at that point, I might get a self-driving electric, a biodiesel, or a hybrid.

  Edited September 16, 2015 by OcramSeattle  

[MintberryCrunch 83]

My dad has a Tesla...when I learn to drive I would love to drive it...not that he would let me -_-

But I could definitely see owning an EV at some point. Here in L.A., the car pollution capital of the world, more electric vehicles could be a good thing. 

[Msprintz 25]

If the gasoline engine was never invented, we would have enough petroleum to manufacture all the plastic, solvents, and other chemicals we humans could ever use (before food and land run out, though having more petroleum for manufacturing could help with solving that and no gasoline engine would mean WWI and suburbs would have been unfeasible)!

 

Depending on where I move to in 3 years and my driving skills at that point, I might get a self-driving electric, a biodiesel, or a hybrid.

The suburbs didn't come about solely for the automobile.  Actually railroads were responsible for the earliest of suburbs.  The coming of the railroad allowed people fed up with crowded cities to relocate and settle in less cramped settings.  Many street car and garden "cities" existed at the turn of the 19th century because of that fact.  It wasn't until after WWII that the modern car-centric suburb came about.     

  Edited September 17, 2015 by Msprintz  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

If the gasoline engine was never invented, we would have enough petroleum to manufacture all the plastic, solvents, and other chemicals we humans could ever use (before food and land run out, though having more petroleum for manufacturing could help with solving that and no gasoline engine would mean WWI and suburbs would have been unfeasible)!

 

Depending on where I move to in 3 years and my driving skills at that point, I might get a self-driving electric, a biodiesel, or a hybrid.

The suburbs didn't come about solely for the automobile.  Actually railroads were responsible for the earliest of suburbs.  The coming of the railroad allowed people fed up with crowded cities to relocate and settle in less cramped settings.  Many street car and garden "cities" existed at the turn of the 19th century because of that fact.  It wasn't until after WWII that the modern car-centric suburb came about.     

Garden Cities are more sustainable and livable than car-centric suburbatory. My point still stands: no gasoline engine = lower demand for petroleum = more sustainable development + less conflict in oil-producing regions = civilization reaches its apex farther in the future.

 

--Ocram

  Edited September 18, 2015 by OcramSeattle  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Maybe, but remember that the first fossil fuel in wide use was coal.  It is even dirtier than petroleum as a fuel.  You might say that our science took a wrong turn, but if we hadn't developed the petrochemical industry, we might still be driving Stanley Steamers or even horses (man's very best friend).

The biggest block in science is that progress stopped when the Romans conquered the Greeks.  The Greeks were architects and thinkers, but the Romans were just really good engineers without much creativity.  And, of course, when the Church inherited the mess that was left after the collapse of Rome, someone decided that everything that could ever be learned had been, and so discouraged further experiment and study.  This lasted until well into the 17th century, and even Galileo was intimidated into recanting by the Inquisition.  If the Church had minded its own business and stuck to theology (mythology), where might we be now?  In those days they had a bad case of "Let's rule".  Too bad.

[raynev1 1,886]

   I don't get it , charging the vehicle wouldn't be difficult . Let me add , I only finished the 8th grade . Manufacturers could build them with built in charging systems (e.g. alternators) attached to the non drive wheels wired to power inverters installed elsewhere in the vehicle .

   Oh never mind , then the energy companies couldn't profit then would they , kinda like the way that the Automobile Industry stifled the electric street cars way back when . Has anyone ever read about that , Old Henry made his Fords run on alcohol and could be adjusted to run on gasoline . Follow the money , you'll find the Evil .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

h

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Conspiracies, real or theoretical, are just fascinating to try to unravel.  The mythical ones are more difficult because the ground keeps shifting. 

What really did it for petrochemical-based fuels was the pre-WW II price of $2 per barrel.  Then along came OPEC where the Arabs decided to hold up the Western World and got away with it instead of being bombed into oblivion.  I think everyone was too tired to care.  This was part of the end of colonialism due to some "powers" that wanted to give "freedom" to people who didn't want it nor understand it and most certainly were not ready for it.  Freedom for a people comes from within and not from without.  Freedom is not free, and cannot be given as a gift.

So now, with the price of oil fallen to a more realistic area, a lot of speculators and some outfits like the tar sands miners are finding their business model has become a permanent loss leader.  Gee, that breaks me up.

Most of these bleating, bleeding hearts deserve every little smack their greedy little egos get.  There was a time when being in business meant "Doing well while doing good".  The second half of this little motto has gone away.  Very few of the greedy Gusses out there give a tinker's curse for anyone but their own smelly bodies.  I'd like to see the lot of them floating down the middle tailrace of Dis.

[raynev1 1,886]

Conspiracies, real or theoretical, are just fascinating to try to unravel.  The mythical ones are more difficult because the ground keeps shifting. 

What really did it for petrochemical-based fuels was the pre-WW II price of $2 per barrel.  Then along came OPEC where the Arabs decided to hold up the Western World and got away with it instead of being bombed into oblivion.  I think everyone was too tired to care.  This was part of the end of colonialism due to some "powers" that wanted to give "freedom" to people who didn't want it nor understand it and most certainly were not ready for it.  Freedom for a people comes from within and not from without.  Freedom is not free, and cannot be given as a gift.

So now, with the price of oil fallen to a more realistic area, a lot of speculators and some outfits like the tar sands miners are finding their business model has become a permanent loss leader.  Gee, that breaks me up.

Most of these bleating, bleeding hearts deserve every little smack their greedy little egos get.  There was a time when being in business meant "Doing well while doing good".  The second half of this little motto has gone away.  Very few of the greedy Gusses out there give a tinker's curse for anyone but their own smelly bodies.  I'd like to see the lot of them floating down the middle tailrace of Dis.

Thank you Mr. Moose , you really brightened up my day . Best wishes my antlered friend .  

[blade2k5 1,523]

No, there is not an EV in my future.  I'm not wasting money on those useless vehicles that'll jack up my electricity bill far more than what putting gas in my car cost.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

No, there is not an EV in my future.  I'm not wasting money on those useless vehicles that'll jack up my electricity bill far more than what putting gas in my car cost.

What if gas cost more than  bottled water?

[raynev1 1,886]

No, there is not an EV in my future.  I'm not wasting money on those useless vehicles that'll jack up my electricity bill far more than what putting gas in my car cost.

What if gas cost more than  bottled water?

   Gas does cost more than bottled water where I'm living , I'll say $3.50 for 3 gallons of water and gasoline 87 octane is $2.28 for 9/10 Gal. and it might not even weigh what it is suppose to . 

   Do the cars have to stay charging while not being driven ? 

[MintberryCrunch 83]

I want a self-driving car. I only recently got my permit and driving scares me Self-driving car would be a nice solution

[hym 358]

I don't get it , charging the vehicle wouldn't be difficult . Let me add , I only finished the 8th grade . Manufacturers could build them with built in charging systems (e.g. alternators) attached to the non drive wheels wired to power inverters installed elsewhere in the vehicle.

This is one of those "if it was that simple, it would have been done already" things.  The short answer is that this doesn't work.  The long answer requires some understanding of electrical engineering and the physics of how electric motors and generators operate.

In general, electric motors operate on the premise that an external power source supplies power to a stator field, which is used to turn the rotor and power the load.  If we analyze this in terms of an electric car, we can see the the car's battery is the power source, and the vehicle is the load that the motors are powering.

 

Electric generators, by contrast, operate on the opposite of this principle.  A prime mover supplies power to the rotor for the intent of generating an electric field on the stator.  In layman terms, a generator can be thought of a motor operating backwards, and for the purposes of the general public, this is true.  However, in the world of electrical engineering, this is not a true statement.  Whereas a motor operates by way of a leading stator field, the generator operates through a leading rotor field.  This is important because it means your stator field is actually a force acting against the motion of the vehicle.  For the purposes of an electric vehicle, this means that an alternator attached to the non-drive wheels actually acts as an additional load for the driving wheels to push.  This in turn increases power flow from the battery.  In other words, the net effect of alternators on the non-drive wheels is to drain the battery faster than if the alternators had never been installed.

Amusingly, this is also a wonderful proof of the theory of regenerative braking.  The Prius actually contains two sets of brakes.  There are the conventional brakes that everyone is familiar with, and there is the regenerative braking system.  As testament to the resistance that the regenerative braking system can provide against the forward motion of the vehicle, it is entirely possible for the Prius to be brought to a total standstill just from the generators attached to its wheels.

 

[blade2k5 1,523]

No, there is not an EV in my future.  I'm not wasting money on those useless vehicles that'll jack up my electricity bill far more than what putting gas in my car cost.

What if gas cost more than  bottled water?

I don't spend money on something I get free like water.  Besides, we weren't talking about bottled water now were we?  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

No, there is not an EV in my future.  I'm not wasting money on those useless vehicles that'll jack up my electricity bill far more than what putting gas in my car cost.

What if gas cost more than  bottled water?

I don't spend money on something I get free like water.  Besides, we weren't talking about bottled water now were we?  

Just a horrible example.  Up here, bottled water costs more than gasoline and you still have to pay your municipal water bill.  Tap water up here is perfectly potable.

@Hym:  All very well, but as usual one should remember the three laws of thermodynamics in such a "closed" system:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

No matter what you do, you have to get your electricity from somewhere external, even if you use solar cells, it is not free.

[raynev1 1,886]

I don't get it , charging the vehicle wouldn't be difficult . Let me add , I only finished the 8th grade . Manufacturers could build them with built in charging systems (e.g. alternators) attached to the non drive wheels wired to power inverters installed elsewhere in the vehicle.

This is one of those "if it was that simple, it would have been done already" things.  The short answer is that this doesn't work.  The long answer requires some understanding of electrical engineering and the physics of how electric motors and generators operate.

In general, electric motors operate on the premise that an external power source supplies power to a stator field, which is used to turn the rotor and power the load.  If we analyze this in terms of an electric car, we can see the the car's battery is the power source, and the vehicle is the load that the motors are powering.

 

Electric generators, by contrast, operate on the opposite of this principle.  A prime mover supplies power to the rotor for the intent of generating an electric field on the stator.  In layman terms, a generator can be thought of a motor operating backwards, and for the purposes of the general public, this is true.  However, in the world of electrical engineering, this is not a true statement.  Whereas a motor operates by way of a leading stator field, the generator operates through a leading rotor field.  This is important because it means your stator field is actually a force acting against the motion of the vehicle.  For the purposes of an electric vehicle, this means that an alternator attached to the non-drive wheels actually acts as an additional load for the driving wheels to push.  This in turn increases power flow from the battery.  In other words, the net effect of alternators on the non-drive wheels is to drain the battery faster than if the alternators had never been installed.

Amusingly, this is also a wonderful proof of the theory of regenerative braking.  The Prius actually contains two sets of brakes.  There are the conventional brakes that everyone is familiar with, and there is the regenerative braking system.  As testament to the resistance that the regenerative braking system can provide against the forward motion of the vehicle, it is entirely possible for the Prius to be brought to a total standstill just from the generators attached to its wheels.

   The Prius has generators attached to it's wheels ? I honestly didn't know that . How much power do these electric cars need to be operable , and do they need to remain charging until use ? An alternator has very little resistance . I can use my fingers to to spin the shaft on one , and it doesn't immediately stop . Lovely art you included BTW , did you do it yourself ?

   I do know that a truck I drove at work , though it were not electric did have two alternators . One for the vehicle itself and another for an extra battery for a power inverter behind the seat , that we used for power tools . It was a 2000 Watt inverter . And as long as the vehicle was running , the battery was never exhausted . Also a lawn mower has no battery or alternator , yet still produces spark . Try touching that wire on the spark plug one time . I bet you won't hold on to that bugger for long . The same with the coil pack that goes to your distributer on your car . Wheels are turning , gears and all .  Look out world .

   My post was just a thought , didn't crunch any numbers or do any drawings . I'm just trying to inspire some intuitive thinking with others that have a higher education than myself . I'm currently working on a power system using magnets , an old bicycle , and an auto alternator with a battery . It's all just a drawing on paper at the moment , nothing physical yet . My assistant has been absent lately . I have been doing research on perpetual motion . Some rather interesting stuff to me . 

   Have a great day everybody .

[hym 358]

The Prius has generators attached to it's wheels ? I honestly didn't know that . How much power do these electric cars need to be operable , and do they need to remain charging until use ? An alternator has very little resistance . I can use my fingers to to spin the shaft on one , and it doesn't immediately stop . Lovely art you included BTW , did you do it yourself ?

The Prius does have a generator attached to the drive system.  Remember how I said that a generator is basically just a motor running in reverse?  If you're an electrical engineer, odds are good that you took an electric drives class in college and if that class was any good, you learned the basics of magnetic flux vectoring and its relation to motor operation.  Odds are also good that you took a control systems class, and if you paid attention, you learned the basics of control loops and feedback systems.  Combine these two disciplines, and your electrical engineers can easily design you an electric braking system that monitors the brake peddle for driver instructions to slow the vehicle, instructs the motor's vector flux management unit to compute a negative torque solution for the motor, and accepts a negative input from the vehicle's traction control system to prevent wheel spin.  You are now operating the electric motor opposite to its intended operation and using the motor to pull the vehicle to a stop.

As for the power demands, that is entirely dependent on the vehicle.  A vehicle's power demands are defined by its kinetic energy, friction coefficients, transformation inefficiencies, etc.  Nor do they need to remain charging when not in use.  For practical purposes, there is no operational difference between an electric vehicle and a gasoline vehicle when they are sitting idle in a parking lot in a powered down state.

As for the alternator, the reason it spins freely is because it is spinning unloaded.  Under a sufficiently high enough load, the shaft wouldn't even turn.  An explanation on this (since it normally confuses people): Most folks understand that the amount of gas a car engine needs to maintain a certain speed is a function of how heavily loaded the engine is.  If you're traveling at 60mph and are about to climb a bridge, you typically have to supply extra gas to the engine to account for the extra load the engine is under.  Electric loads experience a similar phenomenon.  Hook a light bulb up to that alternator, and it's maximum rotational speed will reduce a little bit to account for the load of the light bulb filament.  Add enough light bulbs and the shaft will stop rotating entirely.  If this wasn't true, electric load braking wouldn't work, and regenerative braking wouldn't exist.

While I'm glad you liked the artwork, I stole it from Google.

I do know that a truck I drove at work , though it were not electric did have two alternators . One for the vehicle itself and another for an extra battery for a power inverter behind the seat , that we used for power tools . It was a 2000 Watt inverter . And as long as the vehicle was running , the battery was never exhausted . Also a lawn mower has no battery or alternator , yet still produces spark . Try touching that wire on the spark plug one time . I bet you won't hold on to that bugger for long . The same with the coil pack that goes to your distributer on your car. Wheels are turning , gears and all .  Look out world .

The battery was never exhausted because the engine was sized to appropriately power the vehicle's own electric demands, along with the potential demands of the inverter too.  If the vehicle ran out of gas, the inverter would have drained the battery quickly.  Similarly, the ignition coil operates on power supplied to it from the battery.

As for the lawn mower, if it is one of the typical pull cord start mowers, it likely contains an ignition magneto that supplies the initial spark to start the engine.  Once started, it will keep running until it runs out of gas (as one that has had to fill the mower midway through can attest to).

I have been doing research on perpetual motion . Some rather interesting stuff to me . 

The problem is that for perpetual motion to be possible, thermodynamics would have to be false.  To go back to the case of the electric car, this is the reason putting alternators on the non-drive wheels actually serves against the goal of extending the vehicle range.  Assuming a vehicle at rest at t=0, then the battery charge represents the total sum of the energy stored in the system.  Including the alternators adds additional weight and friction that increase power draw from the battery.  To actually product electric power, the alternators have to be supplied power from a prime mover, which for the vehicle, will be the drive wheels.

In the end, there is no way to win this.  Regenerative braking is the best anyone currently knows how to do.  It's not a conspiracy theory or anything like that.  It's simply the capacity of human engineering bumping up against the limits of physics.

[Larks2242 251]

No thanks, Gas has dropped back down in price and electric will only continue to go up with the focus on expensive renewable undependable energy. 

[raynev1 1,886]

@hym Electrical engineer I'm definitely not , the 8th grade was the last completed . Never even stepped into a high school . I was already corrupted by the dollar bill in middle school and like a dummy dropped out . The school I went to only wanted to make obedient McDonald's employees and the like . And I always wanted to know why ,so when I asked . I found myself in the office quite often . Very discouraging for a teenager that already had the taste of money . In 1983 at age 13 I was already doubling and tripling minimum wage , so flipping burgers was out of the question . Everything that I learned , that got me through life was self taught , except reading and basic math . I will give school credit for that .

   Electricity is not my friend , so I approach it carefully with respect . Thank you for kinda answering my questions , you seem very knowledgeable about automobiles and electronics . Thanks again .

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Aha!  Yet another graduate of HKU (Hard Knocks University).  It wasn't easy, but I entered a field that didn't exist, and is now completely organized beyond what I expected when I was a practising IT type.  Getting there was both fun and frustrating at times, eh?

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

I'd love to daily drive an EV like the Tesla Model S P85D, but I also don't have US$100,000 to buy one and the Leaf is such a dorky car.  Then again, if we get our solar-panel roads of the future and we can use them to charge our cars as we drive and more electric cars start being cool like the Model S, then sign me up!