Democracy Protests in Hong Kong

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

So this is happening.  I won't comment too much on it because any time I think about the Chinese government too much my head explodes with rage.

 

EDIT: Also, the protests appear pretty peaceful, but the Chinese leadership called in the fuzz and they immediately resorted to tear gas grenades.  The Japanese news coverage does not paint anything Beijing does in a positive way, and I'm inclined to be sympathetic to the protesters.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Whether Beijing knows it or not, they have taken a viper to their bosom.  Communism in any form cannot survive a pocket of free self-determination, and Hong Kong is not exactly a small population except perhaps to the Chinese government.  Mao and his ideology notwithstanding, the Chinese people have always been more or less capitalistic.  Rigid systems have come and gone, but the middle kingdom remains.

[mrsmartman 200]

The protesters are mostly students and young people who block the main road to the central business district.

They call their action "Occupy Central", apparently copying the name from "Occupy Wall Street".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The protesters are mostly students and young people who block the main road to the central business district.

They call their action "Occupy Central", apparently copying the name from "Occupy Wall Street".

Interesting.  I hope they have a charismatic leader or two, or it will suffer the same fate as the OWS group.  Ground swells like this are like a tsunami.  They flow in, then then flow out.

[AidanA28 17]

I believe that the Chinese government was wrong to use the somewhat violent approach that they used against the protesters, and specifically against Alex Chow, and that repercussions should be administered to China by the U.N. If it weren't for China's important role in global industry and economics.

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

It is out of fashion, but rather than returning HK to China at the end of the lease, it should have become a UN Trust Territory.  The people of Hong Kong deserve better than to be turned over to a militaristic ideological country with no concept of self-determination.

[SteveMSim 275]

The protesters are mostly students and young people who block the main road to the central business district.

They call their action "Occupy Central", apparently copying the name from "Occupy Wall Street".

 

The pro-democracy movement in Beijing in 1989 was also comprised mostly by students and young people, but that ended when the Chinese authorities sent in tanks and elite army troops, and responded to the protesters like they were foreign invaders.

[Odainsaker 2,133]

Taiwan should also watch warily.  The "One China, Two Systems" special administrative construct temporarily granted by the PRC to Hong Kong until 2047 is Beijing's offered model on how reunification of Taiwan into the PRC might occur.  If Beijing continues to prematurely press its authoritarian heavy-handedness onto the Hong Kong government in spite of its promises for a 50-year grace period, and then follows up with an outright crackdown, then Beijing's own reunification model would be exposed to Taiwan as being in bad faith and defunct.  Thus, Beijing really wants it to be the local Hong Kong government itself that disperses the protestors, however, I don't doubt that even now PLA special police squads are even now crossing from Guangdong into Hong Kong's New Territories and that little lists of names are already being drawn up and facial photographs collected.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

Democracy will not ever work in the real world, only on paper. All these democracy protests end in one of two ways: they are crushed by the ruling government of the country, or the radicals come to power. In Russia, the communists came to power by riding on one of these "democracy protests". In Kiev, after the maidan revolution, the neo-nazi's came to power. The moment, such a protest happens, the cause is lost. It becomes dominated by radicals.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Usually, the most rabid radical becomes a conservative when his side wins.

 

Democracy (rule by the "people") is only for Ancient Athens.  Today, it is no better than a myth.  In Ancient Athens it meant rule by the demes (landholders).

[SteveMSim 275]

Usually, the most rabid radical becomes a conservative when his side wins.

 

Democracy (rule by the "people") is only for Ancient Athens.  Today, it is no better than a myth.  In Ancient Athens it meant rule by the demes (landholders).

 

One reason why conservatives like to say that the United States is a Republic (with a capital "R"), and not a democracy.  Rush Limbaugh, for example, often quoted this on his radio program.  Actually, the United States is a constitutional republic, which is a form of liberal democracy, which the United Kingdom and Canada also are, but in the form of a constitutional monarchy.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

 

Usually, the most rabid radical becomes a conservative when his side wins.

 

Democracy (rule by the "people") is only for Ancient Athens.  Today, it is no better than a myth.  In Ancient Athens it meant rule by the demes (landholders).

 

One reason why conservatives like to say that the United States is a Republic (with a capital "R"), and not a democracy.  Rush Limbaugh, for example, often quoted this on his radio program.  Actually, the United States is a constitutional republic, which is a form of liberal democracy, which the United Kingdom and Canada also are, but in the form of a constitutional monarchy.

 

Correct in theory.  But in fact the United States is a plutocratic oligarchy, and most commonwealth countries are pretty much the same.  There is a lot of lip service, but the facts are otherwise.

[Captain 32]

In Russia, the communists came to power by riding on one of these "democracy protests".

And then again russian revolution for democracy in 1991 toppled government for the sake of the oligarchy. 10 years of misery people, destabilization government, crime spree and complete ruin. These democratic revolutions - complete nonsense. China's booming economics is now at risk of become like the fate of the USSR.

 

But wait. Again, the international community will cry: they are children, students! As it was in Ukraine - in those days still normal stable country.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Russia has a long history of removing heads of state by violence, not only recently.  We shall have to wait and see what happens to the current oligarchs.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

As it was in Ukraine - in those days still normal stable country.

 

 

The situation in Ukraine right now mirrors Russia in the first part of 19th century. Live under Tsar Nikolas, or President Yanukovich was not heaven, but at least it was life. After the radicals come they start a revolution and civil war. You would miss the old ruler. Lenin's red terror is comparable to what we have in Ukraine today.

One reason why conservatives like to say that the United States is a Republic (with a capital "R"), and not a democracy. 

 

 

Weak governments like Ukraine and some African countries may be easily toppled by revolutions. Mighty governments like US and China would never let a protest develop and become dangerous. They are all disposed.

[mrsmartman 200]

Things are getting more and more messy...

 

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1608680/live-student-protesters-await-dialogue-date-lung-wo-road-open-traffic

[jmsepe 2,038]

Further provocations in Hong Kong will definitely result to a recession. Unless, Beijing does something about this immediately, they are slowly turning on the faucet of lost opportunities.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Beijing is going to lose this one.  Hong Kong has been free for over a century and is not likely to kow tow now to any dictator.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

Beijing is going to lose this one.

 

I doubt it. From the looks of it this is just a rather disorganized protest that needs to be sweeped away. In due time, it will be. There were similar protests in Ferguson, they were cleaned away too.

[hym 358]

Beijing is going to lose this one.

I doubt it. From the looks of it this is just a rather disorganized protest that needs to be sweeped away. In due time, it will be. There were similar protests in Ferguson, they were cleaned away too.

The protests in Ferguson are still ongoing.

[Odainsaker 2,133]

I doubt it. From the looks of it this is just a rather disorganized protest that needs to be sweeped away. In due time, it will be. There were similar protests in Ferguson, they were cleaned away too.

We might almost secretly hope that Beijing would have them "sweeped away" in Tiananmen fashion, as such action would openly expose the repressive nature of their authoritarian government and its threat to the guaranteed 50-year democratic autonomy of Hong Kong...err, just sorta like that "fascist" Ukrainian government sweeping away protesting Russian minorities seeking autonomous rights in East Ukraine.  Yes, send in the tanks!

Actually, I think the current Mainland method is more interesting:  reportedly, cellphones in Hong Kong are being bombarded by app spam masquerading as pro-demonstration contacts, but which instead sereptitiously installs spyware dialing home to military servers on the Chinese mainland.  Beijing is collecting names, and, in the following months when the headlines have faded, those named will be themselves collected in person.

[KonstantinII 1,106]

It happens in practically every government in the world, the protesters are broken if they are not strong. The protests in China are not as organized as in Ukraine or elsewhere, and the Chinese government is much stronger...so they don't stand a chance. Let's face it, if you're going to go protest against the government of your country you better expect to be arrested, shot by guards, or bitten by the police dogs. You don't just go against the government if you don't have enough power to completely (or at least partially) overthrow it. If you are not that strong, your movement will be crushed anyway so don't bother to even go into the streets. People just don't go against the government if they have a roof over their heads, a job, and a way to sustain themselves. Thankfully, I do not have a lack of any these things and I will not join any protests against the government of the country I reside in. I know what's best for me. I do not want to be labeled as a terrorist.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Let's be frank (and earnest, too, if you like): Democracy is a myth.  What we should be talking about is self-determination.  I like Mr. Lincoln's definition of 'government of the people, by the people and for the people' even if what you get is some kind of constitutional oligarchy, at least the people have some say in the selection.  However, a self-determined government has to come from within and not from outside, nor by some theory by an academic. 

 

Communism as practiced in main land China is an artificial construct and cannot last more than another century IMHO.  There have already been serious cracks in the structure with resulting trials of some of their high potentates.  In the end, the people of China will have had enough of the Mao bally-hoo, and just either ignore Beijing or overthrow it.

[jmsepe 2,038]

Yes and I wish it wouldn't turn out bloody like what happened to Tiananmen Square in 1989. Frankly though, too much self-determination is the reason why no progress occur. Let's be honest, we should accept that we all have different opinions and sometimes these clashing opinions generates more chaos than progress. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

When an irresistible force meets an immovable object, one gets lots of interesting by-products.  The problem is that the Hong Kong protests are not an irresistible force because they haven't coughed up any charismatic leader.  Where is the successor to Sun Yat Sen?

 

BTW, Hong Kong means fragrant harbour.  Phew!

[Gannet 34]

Well at least we get a front row seat to all the action going on there via news. I'm beginning to enjoy watching these riots.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

And when the Chinese government really smashes this vague bunch (they seem to have no leader), will you enjoy watching that as well?