The Portland & Oregon BAT Team, Chapter 1

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Welcome to page 25!

That would be awesome Screamingman! I'm sure a lot of people following this thread will love it once it is released! I sent you a PM (hopefully you only got 1 copy of it) about possibly listing the Vintage Trolley as an official part of this project on our front page. I'd also be willing to sponsor a Portland Streetcar and/or the MAX too, if you're up to it. And if you get stuck, I have like a billion pics of them, and can easily obtain more.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Wow, just look at that last Hatfield picture and compare it with the first textures! What a progress! This building really improved a lot, and all the suggestions certainly left their mark on the final result.

I'd like to add that it's really a blast to give feedback to a BATter who reacts so openly to it and strives to get even the smallest detail just right - unlike others who just shrug you away and sort of say Yeah, this detail sucks, but I wanna release that building, so there you are. I wonder why such people open a thread at all - maybe just to collect the wows and awesomes.

You have improved a lot IMHO, and if you keep that combination of BAT talent, dedication, open attitude towards suggestions and constructive criticism, and -probably most of all- patience, I am sure that you will make many more valuable contributions to the STEX!

Thank you for everything so far, and I sure hope this thread will continue, because it's really fun.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Why thank you Twrecks! I look forward to working on more stuff in the future. There's still tons to do, I just hope we can get to them all before whenever or if SC5 comes out. I hope to have everything listed in my sig line done within the next 3-6 months tenatively. Then it's time to do some new stuff!

I depend a lot on feedback, as it is really hard to resist the oh, let's just get this done urge. Everyone's feedback helps me defeat it and get this thing done right. And almost always, the long, tough road ahead usually is the best way to go with things. BAT is no exception, although I tend to get a little in over my head at times (ex. all my on hold indefinetly projects like Pioneer Place, Waddle's, and Union Station).

BATing is somewhat of a love-hate relationship when GMax is involved. But it is worth it in the end. I rarely play the game anymore unless to test stuff out. I'm now more into the challenge and making stuff that someone will find some use for. And this all started because I wanted to see more of my hometown in Sim City...

[sparkythepenguin 90]

All right, I think that I have everything ready for a final export fot the Hatfield Courthouse. Also, some more good news- Screamingman may make the Portland Streetcar for GLR (Ground Light Rail mod-Part of the Network Add-on [NAM]) use, as well as the Portland Vintage Trolley.

So now that all the hard work is pretty much done, here is the latest on the Hatfield:

Added some texturing to the under the overhang floor so that it looks like there are gardens. Trees just don't pop out of concrete!



Now for a front shot. I put a ground plane in so that the entry's night lighting would show up on the ground. I used omnis carried over from the Portland Building for this, and this method worked awesome on the Portland Building.

Day, Zoom 4:



Nite, zoom 4:



I plan on exporting it out tomorrow night. I try to plan these for when I'm either asleep or out of the house. After exporting and looking at it in-game, I will move right into modding, testing, then release!

[Andreas Roth 629]

Wow, this has turned into a real beauty! The textures work very well, and all those little details add a lot of character. Definitely your best work so far!

[Rive85 1]

pretty building.. i really like nite lights.
and i like thes medium height buidings. very good for smaller cities.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Thanks! Well, I went ahead anyway and exported a high-quality render last night... Everything looks good except for one thing:

The rooftop texture looks whacky in spots. This only shows up when viewing the building from the front angle (can't remember which cardinal direction that was in Gmax/BAT) and at ALL zoom levels.



What in the name of Peter Griffin happened? This is pretty much the only texture, model piece and condition it occurs this badly on the whole model in LE and in-game (others I can just write off, since they're not that noticable).

Does anyone mind this? I think it looks unacceptable, but I don't have any idea as to how to fix this.

Helllllppppp!!!

[jtportland 184]

wow sparky, the final product looks really good! i love what you did with the textures, the roof looks perfect.

as for that problem, have you tried re-rendering? or maybe try copying and deleting the old roof piece to replace it with the newer copied piece? if non of this works i wouldn't let this stop you from posting it on the stex, it isn't actually that noticeable. and i doubt most people play at that zoom level. i'm not sure what that happens, must be a texture problem with bat/gmax. keep up the morale, it looks amazing. i can't wait to see it in my cities

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Thanks so much JtPortland for the suggestions!

Although the problem on the jpeg may look unnoticable, trust me you can spot it, even at farther out zooms!

I made an attempt to export last night- got the same results when I looked at it in the Lot editor. Will try JtPortland's other idea out over the next few days. It takes about 9 hours for this monster to render. So the plan is to try these things out until it gets it right. If that's at all possible... I also posted the problem in the BAT Workshop's texturing problems thread and am awaiting any other info. This may take some time, but it will be worth it in the end. I really don't want to release it with this problem.

I'll sign off for now. Tonight I'm going to replace the UVW mapping (presently a capped cylindrical UVW map) with a box. I've never had any problems with a box UVW map over a curved area, so it's worth a try.

[ardecila 125]

try saving the roof into a seperate scene, then rendering the roof only. if the problem recurs, then you can re-render and fix it more quickly.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Well, still no luck. I managed to catch Ardecela's comments right before I decided to take this computer off-line. Exporting the roof overhang seperately worked well, as did changing the UVW mapping. Then I tried to do the whole building again, with the problems cropping up again.

Whatever this problem is probably is associated somehow with the entire model. I'll try the copy and delete trick tonight. Also, I have a few textures that are leftovers that aren't being used (including some that were originally applied to the roof), so I'll delete them. If that does not work, I am thinking about rendering the whole building without the overhang, making that the main building, and rendering the overhang as a prop to be added in LE. I really don't want to make this a cumbersome dependency-ridden file, but for lack of a better alternative, it may have to be. Getting it to work in-game isn't a problem for me, having it look right is at this time.

Another idea I have is to have someone else export the whole model and see if it does this. My trust in this PC is very wavery sometimes. I'll start it up again later on an export.

[screamingman12 30]

Sparky,

The Vintage tram is on the exchange, the Portland streetcar is done, but not tested, and no work has been done on the MAX yet (once the Portland tram is ready, then work will start on the MAX) 

[sparkythepenguin 90]

That's awesome Screamingman12! Can you post some pics of the Portland Streetcar progress?

On the Hatfield, still no progress with the overhang texture problem. I guess the next thing to try is to rebuild the overhang. It wasn't doing that weird texture mess before I put the ribs through it. It's probably some problem with how I made it through boolean differences (punching holes) and a boolean union (joining two objects together). Sometimes it works when textured over, sometimes it doesn't. I'm also asking around to see if anyone can diagnose the model. I'd love to see this on the STEX soon, but I am not sure how long it will take to get this problem fixed. Sorry about that everyone.

[screamingman12 30]

Here is the VP:

 

The Portland streetcar

 

 

I'm thinking about making the MAX from Vester_DK's Pittsburgh T trolley, will include it when it's done.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Holy snikeys! That's one loooooong Portland Streetcar! Ather than the extra B sections (Center section for those not in the know), it looks just right!

The Vintage Trolley though needs its celestory (the roof with little windows in it) and the white parts are actually cream in color.

MAX high floors may work with the Pittsburg T model, I dunno... I'm more thinking about the low-floor MAX cars, as the High floors may disappear in the next dew years. They turn 20 this year!

[bixel 1,228]

wHOOOO! lookin so cool!!!! good work both of you. As for me ill see if i can transform the HPP from crappy default nightlight textures to real ones like you did on the Hatfield. Youve raised the bar again Sparky, and now i gotta match it!!!

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Sorry to hear about those problems with the roof. If rendering the roof separately is working, have you thought about rendering the rooftop as a prop and simply placing it on top of the building in LE? The files could be merged into a single DAT afterwards so that nobody gets confused... I guess as long as the LOD limits line up with the topmost floor of the building (where you cut off the roof) and the bottom of the rooftop prop, respectively, this strategy should work. You only need to take care that you set the prop to show up on all zoom levels and activate the query as main building and, for the LM version, the previewable property in the PM. Just a thought...

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Apparently it's a Maxis error of some sort. I checked out the FSH files (I guess these store what the building ought to look like-Bixel told me to look at those) in Ilive Reader, and they look OK. It is highly frustrating. I've asked Bixel to render the Hatfield for me, and maybe it may come out the right way on another computer. If that doesn't work, then I guess the roof-as-prop trick will have to work. I don't know how to make a DAT file though. If there's a good tutorial somewhere out there on that, please let me know of the link.

If the roof-as-prop trick has to be invoked, I'm going to have to figure out some way to chop that roof part off, as the LOD overlap may not work in my favor, especially with all the trees and other stuff under the overhang. Once again, sorry about the long wait on this one folks. I wish there was a definite way to fix whatever this stupid problem is. The only thing holding this up is the export process.

[Andreas Roth 629]

I agree with T Wrecks, if it doesn't work otherwise, make the roof a prop. Since it would be included in the download, it's not really a dependency, and as suggested, you can also merge the files into the building model, if you want. But a separate roof.dat wouldn't harm either. Creating a merged file is very easy with Files2Dat or the new version of SC4Tool. Just select the source files (the SC4Model and the SC4Desc), type in a name for the target file and click the merge button.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Just to let everyone know what's up, I sent the Hatfield over to Bixel last night. He should be checking in sometime soon to let me know what's going on. Cross your fingers everyone! Let's hope he can work some magic with it.

[ardecila 125]

Can you post a pic of your LOD? I'd like to see it.

My current theory on this is that it is somehow related to the shadow system in SC4. If this is true, then we may be able to do something about it.

[bixel 1,228]

Bad news Sparky: I wont bother with screen shots cause it looks EXACTLY THE SAME in the LOT Editor as yours does. Sorry buddy, I looked over the whole model, checked your textures and everything. The only good news is that it only took me 3 hours to render instead of your 9. But the results are the same. Your just going to have to make it a prop and do what Andreas Roth said. Though you will have to make custom LODs for it to show I believe. Otherwise if you try to put the prop onto the building but the building's LOD Boxes cover the roof then the prop disappears. This is why T Wrecks always wants us BATters to make custom LODs so he go PROP CRAZY ALL OVER OUR CREATIONS!!!! ahahahaha!! That was just aimed at you T!

But seriously though this is one weird fluke.

 

[Edit] I just remembered if you do decide to make the roof a prop you will want to copy it (as in clone - copy NOT instance), rename it LOD3 make another copy rename it LOD4 and another LOD5. This way all your trees and roof junk with show through the holes in the roof. You will prolly want to do this with the hatfield as well though you can get away with mostly a box until you reach the top then you want to make copies of the parts in the top of the building, use Edit Mesh, attach them to the box (minus the OverhangRoof02), delete the umv mapping create a blank material from the material editor and put a grey default material over it, call it LOD3 copy, LOD4, copy LOD5.

[bixel 1,228]

ardecila: I had something similar in mind, I was thinking perhaps the default LODs were too close to the roof or something, so I checked all that and there is ample distance between the LODs and the roof, so no prob there. I have not heard of this shadow thing maybe a newcamrig is in order?

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Hey Bixel, was just working with Ardecila via AIM. We may have figured it out! If you notice the trees in the model have these weird blue lines that look like a bounding box. Those are actually a helper object, according to Ardecila. He told me to delete them, so I went and did that (they're grouped in with the trees, had to ungroup all the trees and get rid of them). So what is happening now is that I am trying to recreate the error using just the trees and the overhang part from an earlier version. I think that's the error b/c it may interfere with the standard BAT helper objects-Ardecila thinks it may be throwing off the shadowing. After looking at the error version, I'll export another overhang-tree-roof wall-roof floor only model and see if this resulted in no errors. If so, then we're on the fast track to wrapping this one up.

Keep those fingers crossed. Will be on this one all nite...

....Even if this means that I'm a sleep-deprived mess tomorrow!!!!!!!! Perhaps I can retain some form of sanity between then and now? Who knows!

Ardecila and Bixel, I owe you guys one whenever this gets working right!

-----------------------------------------------------
Edit 12:50 AM Pacific Time... That failed. ugh. Back to square one again... This error is intollerable!!!

Although those helper things in the trees did have to go though... On the bright side, something was learned.

Bixel, since you have the model and a decent PC for exporting, could I please (with sugar on top) call in another favor and have you try that idea that you last posted and see how it works? If all fails, do the custom LOD/prop/dat file thing, and then bump it back to me for the lot editing. Make sure to delete those blue helper things packeged into each tree group. If you have any questions on that, let me know. I'm OK with advising.

Sorry to seem like I'm dropping this on you, and I understand if that can't be done. I just really need this thing out of my hands for the present.

My patience with GMax is wearing really thin and I am in dire need of a break. I'm about ready to take a sledgehammer to this PC! Sorry for the rant.. A little break to get my bearings and the model being in capable hands should make things easier.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Date: 1/19/2006 12:11:13 AM
Author: bixel
This is why T Wrecks always wants us BATters to make custom LODs so he go PROP CRAZY ALL OVER OUR CREATIONS!!!! ahahahaha!! That was just aimed at you T!

quote>

Seriously, I think many BATters underestimate the advantages of using props and custom LODs. Just download this building and see what that guy did with the props! Tear it apart in the LE and look how well he lined up the stuff. IMHO, there is much to learn from this BAT. Many BATters will start building happily away, storey upon storey, and by the time they have almost completed a 500 m office tower they start whining why their PC cannot handle the render. Of course, the technique used in this building will not work equally simple for non-boxy buildings. But it is an approach worth bearing in mind IMHO. Just look at the wall props for the lower half of the main building - I bet that you could render them in a jiffy even with gmax on a poxy 600 MHz celeron. At the time they are done, other BATters would cry over an export error that happened when they tried to render the entire complex in one on their 4 GHz machine and ask in the chat if they should get two more 1 GB RAM sticks in addition to their existing two.

Roof junk is another aspect: If the LOD top lines up with the roof and if some nice guys would make a roof junk prop pack, render time would decrease, and everybody could add or remove roof junk to his/her liking. There would even be the possibility of randomly generated roof junk by using prop families!

The same goes for the base. Why BAT oak trees with 250,000 polygons per acorn and cry over the lag and messed-up renders when you can cut custom LODs or render the base as a separate prop and place whatever trees you want - Maxis default trees, some of CouchPotato's or SimGoober's flora props, DuskTrooper's recently released trees...

Now don't anybody take this lil' rant too seriously - I exaggerated and caricatured on purpose. All I want is to promote some techniques which might not be applicable or at least advisable in any case, but might be good in some cases. And yes, I wanna go prop crazy! Look, I'm a lot editor guy. As a lot editor, normal insanity ain't enough. You gotta be a prop nut and proud of it.

Back to topic: I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you found the solution and this fine BAT can get finished - and flooded with tens on the STEX!

[bixel 1,228]

Here here! Good reply T, I expected nothing less from you.

[BubbaGump 0]

Excellent work on the Portland BATs! I need help though.

 

When I downloaded Jtportland's Fox Tower, KOIN Center, One Main Place, and the Convention Center, and other stuff, only the One Main Place and the Convention Center showed up in the landmarks menu when I extracted the files to the Plugins folder. Is there like a file I need for the KOIN center and the Fox Tower to show up in-game. Since, I exctract it, but it doesn't show up in the game.

 

Help?

[bixel 1,228]

BubbaGump: Some of the folders when extracted have indidual zips files in them. (My guess, I think this is Sparkie's Style). Look in the folder and you will see something like Plop.zip, Landmark.zip, Grow.zip. I unzip only the ones I want to use, and delete the rest. I keep all my downloaded content in a folder call BAT Downloads, and everything I want to use, models and lots and desc. files are in my plugins folder.

Sparkythepeguin: I had some troubles with the custom LODs I put on the Hatfield, so in the next following days I will try to fix some news ones and finally get it working. My suggestion: DONT USE GMAX. You need to contact me ASAP so I can give you the tools you need. It renders so slooowww, that I only spent Saturday trying to fix, but hopefully we'll see some results soon.

 

Update on the HPP, I know its practically 99.9% finished but after the 6 hour failure of working with Sparkie's Hatfield I decided to see if I could put in some real niteliting instead of the crappy textures. No go. I tried and tried and prolly spent my other 6 hours trying to do them. I am somehow cursed when it comes to nightlighting.

[BubbaGump 0]

That's what I did! I downloaded it, but before I extracted, I deleted the CO$$ Ploppable and the Growable, and only kept the landmark, but it didn't show in game!

[Kwakelaar 92]

Just want to compliment you on your outstanding work. This new building and the roof (which seem to be causing so much problem) is just fantastic work. I don't download many tall buildings anymore (there are just so many to choose from) but this beauty will certainly be in my plugins the moment it is released.