Road Top Mass Transit - My Improvements

[the7trumpets 10]

Basically, we don't know for sure how the exe handles translating the RUL codes in the lotconfig lines, when plopping on top of an existing network. It would have been nice if the lotconfig lines were as exaustive as the checktype lines in the IntersectionOrdering RUL file, but that might be getting a little overboard.

Basically, there's not much we can do other than simply redraw the network. Good luck though

[Thalassicus 33]

Date: 10/13/2004 3:07:29 PM
Author: sas205
When I'm inside Zone overlay screen I can see the stops while I'm placing them. But if I exit the screen and enter it again, the stops don't show, but their places appear as empty breaks in streets/avenues.

quote>
I actually find this a useful way to quckly see all the stops placed in a certain area, everywhere there's a gap in a road or street you know there's a stop there. It can be used to gauge if you have good covereage of an area or missed any spots. Transit querying intersections in this mode can be used to visually see how to arrange your stops for the shortest walking distance to the most sims (if you aren't using a gridded road network)


I also found an alternate way to handle the traffic speed problems, and posted in the NAM general discussion thread earlier: rather than using a Speeds x 10 mod, use Commute Time Allowed x10 instead. This has exactly the same effect ingame, but transit costs for all mass transit stations (including roadtop versions) will work correctly.

[pansarkatt 2]

I like these improvements a lot and have tried them out in my city. I have noticed one thing and I don't know if it's just me or if it's a bug. The problem is that the subway stops can't be placed on top of roads. The text says that this is the way to do it, so I guess it's a bug. What do you think?

I also have a request. Can you put in an item order so that the road top MT lots appear at the end of the menu, like the old version? That would be great.

Thanks.

[Thalassicus 33]

I personally like the order it's in, as the road, street, etc stops are near the beginning (which I use frequently) and the avenue and subway/bus multi stops are near the end. It's just personal preference though

[Marc Collins 36]

I'll chime back in to this thread after a very long absence.

Yes, I am using Traffic Cop to alter the whole commute speed thing. The problems with my existing RTMT may very well be related to that.

Stops on diagonals is FANTASTIC!!! That was the number 1 problem with the existing RTMT mod.

People have been discussing a factor being changed for those using the commute speed changes....can there be two versions of this mod--one for stock and one for modified commute speeds/times?

I would not be able to give up the pathfinding mod improvements at this point! I am a realism freak and that mod has transformed the game (along with the original RTMT). Every capacity change mod I have worked with requires demolishing all pre-existing facilities...I can't imagine this would be any different.

I would live to test this on a small city or two as soon as I am sure the pathfinding/commute mods are not going to cause irreconcilable problems.

[Marc Collins 36]

The other major issue for me is the traffic passing through the stops being counted towards the stop's capacity AND, presumably, also counting as revenue for your city's mass transit (??).

It seems that mass transit more than pays for itself so easily with the RTMT mod. I think that's because every pedestrian and car that passes over the station/stop is buying a ticket and contributing to the city's coffers? Am I right? Can this be fixed!?!?!?!

[Thalassicus 33]

I'm pretty sure that functionality is something handled by the game itself, and cannot be customized on our end (at least there aren't any properties handling it in lot files).

[cjmarshall 0]

Date: 11/2/2004 10:33:56 AM
Author: Marc Collins
Yes, I am using Traffic Cop to alter the whole commute speed thing. The problems with my existing RTMT may very well be related to that.
...
People have been discussing a factor being changed for those using the commute speed changes....can there be two versions of this mod--one for stock and one for modified commute speeds/times?

quote>
I plan to add this as an extra but not until I'm sure the building exemplars are in their final state, as I don't want to duplicate them and then have to go through and modify two sets because I've found a mistake.

I would not be able to give up the pathfinding mod improvements at this point! I am a realism freak and that mod has transformed the game (along with the original RTMT). Every capacity change mod I have worked with requires demolishing all pre-existing facilities...I can't imagine this would be any different.

quote>
Can I suggest that you try out the traffic plugins included in the NAM. One of the things Tropod has been able to do here (which you can't do with Traffic Cop) is to alter the Maximum commute time allowed (and to alter the graph to compensate). This gives much the same benefits as using modified speeds without the distorting effects on Mass Transit usage (which affect the in-game Stops/Stations and Tollbooths as well as RTMT). The best one to look at is probably the 'NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_PerfectPathfinding_HighCapacity_10xCommute.dat' file as this is the one that upgrades everything except the actual traffic speeds. If you really need to have the capacities and pathfinding heuristic exactly as they currently are, then you can probably tweak this file with Traffic Cop (though I wouldn't know how to do this since I've never used Traffic Cop).

Stops on diagonals is FANTASTIC!!! That was the number 1 problem with the existing RTMT mod.

quote>
I really must get around to finishing these...

The other major issue for me is the traffic passing through the stops being counted towards the stop's capacity ...

quote>
I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can do about this. the7trumpets did say he'd look into it, but I assume he didn't find anything.

... AND, presumably, also counting as revenue for your city's mass transit (??).

quote>
It has always been my understanding that Mass Transit Fares are calculated based on total journey length of all journeys for the MT transit types (Train, Sub/El rail, Bus, Monorail) rather than on the number of sims passing through stops/stations, so I don't think you need to worry about this. If anybody knows otherwise please comment.

It seems that mass transit more than pays for itself so easily with the RTMT mod. I think that's because every pedestrian and car that passes over the station/stop is buying a ticket and contributing to the city's coffers? Am I right? Can this be fixed!?!?!?!

quote>
A well-used Mass Transit system based on Buses or Trains is a very good way of generating income even without RTMT. I have one city whose layout is heavily based on 'boulevards' consisting of 2 one way roads with a one tile gap between them and bus stops in the gap every 6-10 tiles. The bus system is heavily used and covers its costs by about a factor of 5. I suspect that the fact that RTMT makes building extensive bus networks much easier means that you have been able to build much bigger networks than before which has made their profitability much more obvious. Again if anybody has any evidence that clearly demonstrates through car, truck or pedestrian traffic affecting Mass Transit fares then I'd

[Thalassicus 33]

I believe it's actually not calculated based on total trip length, but just the # of times trips change from one type of traffic to another (ped to bus, rail, subway, etc or vice versa). In either case, traffic simply passing over the stop does not count towards capacity, unless it hops off the bus/subway/rail and back on (which sometimes happens). I've tested this in the game before so I'm sure this is the case

[Tropod 144]

Date:11/9/2004 6:39:49 AM
Author:cjmarshall

Date: 11/2/2004 10:33:56 AM
Author: Marc Collins
Yes, I am using Traffic Cop to alter the whole commute speed thing.  The problems with my existing RTMT may very well be related to that.

... AND, presumably, also counting as revenue for your city's mass transit (??).

quote>
It has always been my understanding that Mass Transit Fares are calculated based on total journey length of all journeys for the MT transit types (Train, Sub/El rail, Bus, Monorail) rather than on the number of sims passing through stops/stations, so I don't think you need to worry about this. If anybody knows otherwise please comment.

It seems that mass transit more than pays for itself so easily with the RTMT mod.  I think that's because every pedestrian and car that passes over the station/stop is 'buying' a ticket and contributing to the city's coffers?  Am I right?  Can this be fixed!?!?!?!

quote>
A well-used Mass Transit system based on Buses or Trains is a very good way of generating income even without RTMT. I have one city whose layout is heavily based on 'boulevards' consisting of 2 one way roads with a one tile gap between them and bus stops in the gap every 6-10 tiles. The bus system is heavily used and covers its costs by about a factor of 5. I suspect that the fact that RTMT makes building extensive bus networks much easier means that you have been able to build much bigger networks than before which has made their profitability much more obvious. Again if anybody has any evidence that clearly demonstrates through car, truck or pedestrian traffic affecting Mass Transit fares then I'd be very interested to see it.

quote>

 

From what I understand; Mass Transit Revenue is, in part at least, calculated based on the Amount of MT Activity occuring in a city. This, & only this I would think, would be the only explanation for why &/or how a city, & immediate neighbouring cities, that consists of no Mass Transit buildings at all whatsoever, is even capable of generating Mass Transit Revenue. This is something I've seen occur first hand in a few cities I've played, & it's a bit of an odd thing to see.

[the7trumpets 10]

Ahh... finally something I can comment on

I'm 98% sure that this is the way it is:


MT buildings have a certain transit switch entry cost time. This time is multiplied by property 0xCA5F7821, to account for the level of budget funding (fund less and it takes longer). The result of this is probably then multiplied by property 0xA92356B9, to make more congested stops take longer. However, I have no proof of the latter.

MT fares, however, are only collected based on how many sims traverse x number of transit tiles of a particular type. The exception is ferrys (see below). The simulator uses property 0xA92356B1 and multiplies it by the total number of sims traversing each transit tile of the respective network. The result is that cities which have no stations but lots of sims commuting through the city on MT lines earn lots of money.

Ferries however, behave umm... differently. I believe redlotus actually succeeded in discovering the most about how the ferry system works, but in short, the only thing I know is that ferry fares seem to be related in some manner to property 0x8C3CAEF5.


Hopefully that sheds some light

[Marc Collins 36]

I am very happy to hear that the revenue is not being distorted by non-MT traffic passing over stops.

What about the capacity/usage of the stop itself? Is it affected by non-MT traffic? It sure seems to be in my cities, but I haven't done the proper detailed testing to prove it.

[pansarkatt 2]

Date: 10/31/2004 6:35:59 AM
Author: pansarkatt
... subway stops can't be placed on top of roads. The text says that this is the way to do it, so I guess it's a bug. What do you think?

quote>


How about my earlier question, see above? Is anyone else having this problem or is it just me?
(By the way, the subway stops can't be place on top of avenues either. Both roads and avenues have to be deleted first, and then the stops can be placed in the gap.)

[cjmarshall 0]

Date: 11/19/2004 4:30:40 AM
Author: pansarkatt

Date: 10/31/2004 6:35:59 AM

Author: pansarkatt

... subway stops can't be placed on top of roads. The text says that this is the way to do it, so I guess it's a bug. What do you think?

quote>



How about my earlier question, see above? Is anyone else having this problem or is it just me?

(By the way, the subway stops can't be place on top of avenues either. Both roads and avenues have to be deleted first, and then the stops can be placed in the gap.)

quote>
Plopping subway stops on top of existing roads and avenues seems to work fine for me so I'm a little mystified as to what the problem is you're having. Can you describe things in a bit more detail (with screenshots if possible)? Information that is likely to be relevant includes :

- What exactly happens when you try to plop the subway stops (turn red or just not plop)
- Whether this happens with the bus and combo stops as well or just the subway ones.
- Whether this happens with the subway stops for streets and one-ways
- What other mods you have installed

Sorry I can't be more help. Maybe a bit more detail will give me or someone else an idea.

[pansarkatt 2]

Date:11/19/2004 6:59:28 PM
Author:cjmarshall
- What exactly happens when you try to plop the subway stops (turn red or just not plop)
- Whether this happens with the bus and combo stops as well or just the subway ones.
- Whether this happens with the subway stops for streets and one-ways
- What other mods you have installed

quote>

Here is some more information:

 

Bus stops plop ok on top of all network items.

 

When I try to plop subway and combo stops on top of any network item NOTHING happens. It does not turn red or anything, it just doesn

[cjmarshall 0]

Pansarkatt,
To be honest I still have very little idea of what the problem is. Looking through your list of Mods the only ones that I can imagine affecting this are the Network Addon Modd and Big Red Fish's mod 'BRF_TunnelAndSlopeMod-b.dat'. Since you've already tried removing the NAM (and I use it here without having this problem) it doesn't look like it's the problem. All I can suggest is that you try removing the tunnel and slope mod and see if it helps.

If it isn't this then I really don't know. Maybe someone else has some ideas.

Just a final note about the diagonal stops. These are a work in progress that was never finished, so I'd advise beginners to stay well clear and warn anyone else that they are on their own if they try to use them for now. I'll try and get back to these sometime.

[pansarkatt 2]

Date: 11/21/2004 6:48:09 AM
Author: cjmarshall
All I can suggest is that you try removing the tunnel and slope mod and see if it helps.

quote>

I tried your suggestion and still had the same problem, so I decided to really go through the mods and see if I could find the cause.I removed all mods and the RTMT worked fine. Put them back a few at a time and tested. Luckily I didn't have too many mods to test...

And I found the cause! The mod causing this is Tropods DataviewMod_RH.dat that can be found here on Simtropolis, and that includes info on transit buildings in the dataview. I doublechecked my finds to be sure, removed the mod, tested, put it back, tested, removed it, tested.

I would be interested to here if you get the same results. And in that case, if it can be fixed.
I really would like these mods to function together, since they're both great!

[pansarkatt 2]

Latest news on this problem:
I have been in contact with Tropod and he has made changes in the dataview mod to make it compatible with the improved RTMT. Due to the work being done on Simtropolis he wont update the mod file until maybe later, but he has given me permission to redistribute it. So, if anyone has the same problem plopping subway and combo stops, please let me know and I'll send you the updated dataview mod.

[Diablo 0]

I'm using these road top MT alot and I'm just wondering if there are any progress done on them? Any updates to be expected?

 

I have noticed that cars do not want to travel over these lot's when I have the speed increased on the network (speed *10 for example). It's seems like the speed crossing the RTMT is too low and it's faster for the cars to go the other way around the block.

[cogeo 960]

I'm preparing an update for RTMT, see https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57410&pageNo=1#469849 .

This version will include many different bus-stops and subway stairs.

It is also going to be NAM-compatible.

 

It is now in the phase of writing documentation and packaging, and it will be released soon.

 

[Diablo 0]

WHOOHOO! Looking forward to that!

[Tyeguy 1]

So this mod fixes the issue of people not being able to leave avenue subway stations? Because I have some weird commute paths, where people take the subway and get off at the nearest road or street subway station, then take the bus to their destination (located on an avenue) even though there is an avenue subway/bus station right next to their destination. This fixes something like that?

[cjmarshall 0]

Date: 5/18/2005 11:42:26 PM
Author: Tyeguy
So this mod fixes the issue of people not being able to leave avenue subway stations? Because I have some weird commute paths, where people take the subway and get off at the nearest road or street subway station, then take the bus to their destination (located on an avenue) even though there is an avenue subway/bus station right next to their destination. This fixes something like that?

quote>
I've just dug had a dig through the files for this and I definitely made some changes to the Avenue Bus/Subway stop to fix a problem of sims being unable to get off the subway, so my version should not have this problem.

[Tyeguy 1]

Attached is a picture of what I am describing.

[cogeo 960]

CJM is right, his lots are enabled for both all kinds of through traffic and all types of transit exchange (from & to pedestrian) of all kinds as well.

Can you specify which version you are using?

[Tyeguy 1]

I realized I haven't been using his stuff, just the TransitSupermod, I will try his stuff now and let you know what I find.

[Tyeguy 1]

IT WORKS!!!!!!

Now I am using the NAM along with CJM's RTMT updates, and my avenue stops work!!!!!! Thanks, everyone!

[Pheonix Rising 2]

whats the latest release and where can it be found??

[cjmarshall 0]

Date: 6/16/2005 4:52:56 PM
Author: Pheonix Rising
whats the latest release and where can it be found??

quote>
I think my version is still the most recent. You can download it from the link in the first page of this thread. Cogeo is working on a new version but it isn't done yet. Keep an eye on his thread for progress.