Simtropolis Religion Thread

[AkemiAzula 280]

I long ago came to the conclusion that as everything we know and see, including mathematics which can describe all we know and see, was relative, that both absolute creation and absolute destruction were not just physically but theoretically impossible.

Nothing can not exist. Zero is not an amount, it is the lack of an amount. Where there is no matter there is a lack of matter. But existence and nonexistence are not relative.

Something can not 'half exist' or  be semi-real. 

Thus existence and reality are true. Theory is untrue and only exists as speculation. 

 

What then of the past... Are memories like wounds? Is a moment like a stab? If time is relative like all dimensions, them the past is fictional as much as Hogwarts is and the future is a next door neighbour of Narnia.

But if absolute creation and deletion are impossible and purely relative observations... 

The problem is we can only understand a thing even a hypothetical conception through evolving our observations of reality into theory.

I see a pig and a bird. I can picture a flying pig though none exist.

Mathematics can explain all the patterns of the world... But can't explain the world itself.

Yet to argue something exists beyond this world yet has no presence in it, or rather is isolated from our world and can not be understood by the same logic that exists here...

 

Is a paradox surely... 

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Any advanced technology of which the observer is ignorant is equivalent to magic and anyone demonstrating it could be considered to be a god.

Imagine what Leonardo Da Vinci would think if you could bring him forward in time to our civilization.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Well, the most effective way to increase the sum of human knowledge and decrease the sum of human suffering is to allow more to be done with Informed Consent (which has complex legal requirements that is already perfect for definition) and to radically change the distribution of scarce resources. Too bad it's considered "unethical" to do so.

 

FYI: Ethics are relative, only laws and morals are codified.

  Edited October 23, 2015 by OcramSeattle  
nvm

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This is the religion thread.  Religions have answers that cannot be questioned, so introducing the idea of 'informed consent' here is a waste of time.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I will start a new thread about Ethics. General Off-Topic should be the right place.

  Edited October 22, 2015 by OcramSeattle  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I have no fraking clue where my darn post belongs then!

Start a new thread.

[jmsepe 2,038]

The idea that religion have answers which cannot be questioned is the real deal killer for me. In this world, everything should be open for evaluation and re-evaluation. It is only through a continuous process of change that we can constantly cope up with the changing times. Haven't the Catholic church changed as well from the Council of Nicaea to Vatican II and continuously enjoy a dominant position in the society as of today? 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

But even so, Catholicism and any Christian "church" has unquestionable answers starting with the existence of God.  This you may not doubt nor question, and Catholics must accept the Trinity, holus bolus.  The doctrine of Original Sin is also beyond question (if it didn't exist, you wouldn't need the sacrament of Baptism), and so on.  For a full catalogue of unquestionable answers refer to any Catechism.

Church councils never make any changes to the basic dogma.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I never expected it but I felt the Holy Spirit last night. I was overcome with a joyous peace and all my negative thoughts went away. It was a powerful experience! As I quietly prayed in my worship group, this powerful changed started to come over me. At first, my negative thoughts started going away, then I felt calm and happy, eventually I felt happier than I ever did in my life, lightheaded, and tingling sensation overcame me. I breathed deeply to make sure it wasn't oxygen deprivation. I was just sitting in the back of the bible study room listening to the quiet acoustic worship songs. That was the first time I went to "Jesus at midnight" service. I was expecting a small comforting experience and a better chance for my prayers to be heard but I felt God answer my prayers. It was amazing! I never expected myself to feel it!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

An epiphany!?  Well, that's good for you.  Now, what are you going to do with it?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I have known my skills and gifts since I was a kid; I've known my vocation for a decade; and I'm well aware of my faults. My goals haven't changed but my priorities and whole perspective have changed completely!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

An epiphany!?  Well, that's good for you.  Now, what are you going to do with it?

I have known my skills and gifts since I was a kid; I've known my vocation for a decade; and I'm well aware of my faults. My goals haven't changed but my priorities and whole perspective have changed completely!

Does this mean you believe you've been called?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

An epiphany!?  Well, that's good for you.  Now, what are you going to do with it?

 

I have known my skills and gifts since I was a kid; I've known my vocation for a decade; and I'm well aware of my faults. My goals haven't changed but my priorities and whole perspective have changed completely!

Does this mean you believe you've been called?

Called? As in to work in a church or become a priest? Heavens no! My vocation, my calling is science. God put me on this Earth to do good through scientific discovery and engineering efficiency. Ever since I was a kid, the sciences have fascinated me. I always wanted to be some sort of scientist (though my field of interest changed multiple times). Now I know for certain that is what God wants me to do! Like I said, none of my goals changed. I still plan on earning a bachelor's degree in Chemical Engineering and Biochemistry. I found a new passion for life and volunteer work and my passion for knowledge has completely renewed!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ Excellent.  You might also consider becoming a member of the Third Order of St. Francis.  This lay order will give you some collegiality for your religious feelings and help you get organized.  Also, think hard about engineering.  This is only one aspect of science.  You may want to pursue a broader field such as pure sciences instead of applied sciences.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

^ Excellent.  You might also consider becoming a member of the Third Order of St. Francis.  This lay order will give you some collegiality for your religious feelings and help you get organized.  Also, think hard about engineering.  This is only one aspect of science.  You may want to pursue a broader field such as pure sciences instead of applied sciences.

Applied Sciences are my passion! I love cellular biology, chemistry, and cuisine! Mathematics are my forte but not my passion. Chemical Engineering will get me a good paying career but Biochemistry and polymers are my academic passion and my true calling. I want to help the world through innovation that will increase sustainability and decrease suffering. That innovation will likely result in new types of plastic.

 

I am not ready yet to officially join any official church organizations and I certainly won't join anything from the Catholic Church until I marry a Catholic woman or retire from the career that I haven't even started.

 

It is likely I won't marry anyone besides a Catholic woman because I am not attracted to women without Spaniard or Italian heritage. I am not attracted to any women who look Alpine, Nordic, Celtic, Baltic, Slavic, Mongolian, or Inuit so if I do get married, it will likely be to a Mediterranen woman.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Faith and science are not incompatible, but they do require some compartmentalization.  So go ahead and become a biochemical engineer.  You know, that is darned near to being a physician.  You might give that a little thought.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I gave the medical field a lot of thought but I cannot stand disease, needles, hospitals, paperwork, bad news, and faking emotion. I wouldn't have any "bed side manner." A lot of my classmates in community college went into the medical field.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, it is a matter of taste.  When I was an engineering student more than 50 years ago, I was scheduled to take a degree in engineering chemistry which was engineering physics with a large number of chemistry labs.  From the way you are talking, that seems to be your goal.  Worthy of note that chemistry is rather a closed science because most of the work is enclosed in physics.  Lots of math, and thank heavens for modern computer modelling.  I took a year off and discovered that wasn't what I wanted after all.  Wound up in computer science. which really didn't exist at the time.

[raynev1 1,886]

I see religions like any style or culture or team or nation or tribe. Islam and Judaism. Coke and Pepsi. To a scientific rational like me all religions are observed objectively and treated as any cultural grouping as combinations of behavioral rules.

Any religion is fundamentalist to the extent of practicality. Take coffee. You like coffee? But do you drink a hundred cups of coffee a day and abstain from eating or breathing?

I think some churches are pretty and some religions have pretty rituals or dress. But to a rational like me the actual beliefs, the raisin detre of these religious houses... Are preposterous or at any rate just moral tales and the opiate of belief in an afterlife and some divine justice and reason for existence.

In practice peace tolerance and compromise are successful but what Pope wouldn't love it if every man decided to become Catholic?

Then again, what if everyone followed Manchester United? What if everyone was British? What if everyone was a clone or s robot? The problem is freedom of thought.

As long as this exists so will temptation and opportunity to (a) sin, (b) switch faiths or (c) abandon faith. The fact we can choose what we believe if not what we say and do means...

But I read in the Daily Mail yesterday some interestingly Orwellian news. Scientists have invented a magnetic way to control ones opinion or strength of opinion. In theory all brains could be kept to a faith using this magnetic method.

  Sheep herding , is what i call it . I read that Facebook did an experiment to change people's moods through their news feed and was successful . Don't think or question , just do as you are told . If they can't get you to obey by means of drugs or fluoride , I guess they have to take a different path . 

   I'm not criticizing any religion or belief . Believe what you want if it makes you feel better about yourself . I'm not here to argue either . I believe we (humans) are here by Intelligent Design from a Divine being .

   I don't believe "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" that I was taught in school . I feel we are complex biological machines with multi-processing abilities . I don't believe it coincidence that our intuitive thinking  crawled out of the ocean , so many millions of years ago either . 

   I believe there was a Jesus Christ , a Great Flood and many other stories in the Bible . Also felt a bit torn about a few others . I'm not going to say I read the whole "Holy Bible" , but I did study while growing up with family and friends of family . They were good rule following individuals . Go to work , go to church , didn't use curse words and didn't question wrong things happening to them . They accepted it as God's will and as a test to their faith . If I had been in an accident , I can't accept it as God's will . I use logical thinking . There are many hypocrites out there and many hide behind the cloth . I believe in an "All Mighty Creator" , though I don't go to church .  

   I wish all well being and happiness . Peace .

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@Raynev1:  My friend, you and I should share a case of beer someday.  I am a rationalist, and I don't hold with the mythology that lacks any proof.  I don't accept answers that cannot be questioned.

[Skimbo 304]

Reading about all of this: What's the bible? A book full of lies? Seems alike. And the way it's interpritated causes trouble in many ways. See history for reference. Nothing caused as many violent deaths as ancient "writings of gods and prophets" - nevermind which religion. The proof that there isn't a god. A god would have learned from the first book-misstake and won't have set another one of theese "devilish things" into the world.

For me: Believe isn't knowledge and there's no proof for the teachings of a "god"- creature or one of it's prophets.

 

  Edited November 8, 2015 by Skimbo  

[LexusInfernus 908]

Reading about all of this: What's the bible? A book full of lies? Seems alike. And the way it's interpritated causes trouble in many ways. See history for reference. Nothing caused as many violent deaths as ancient "writings of gods and prophets" - nevermind which religion. The proof that there isn't a god. A god would have learned from the first book-misstake and won't have set another one of theese "devilish things" into the world.

For me: Believe isn't knowledge and there's no proof for the teachings of a "god"- creature or one of it's prophets.

Actually it hasn't. It has caused some violent deaths, but in the grand scheme of things most violent deaths have a more secular motive. Disregarding the violent deaths caused by crime and focusing purely on warfare, we see that the root cause of most wars are caused by the 'realpolitik' of heads of state. Even if religion was invoked to stir up the feelings of people, it was never more than window dressing. In the end, people tend to fight far more often over power, wealth or access to power  and wealth. And then of course when we enter the 20th century, we see massive bloodbaths caused by secular ideologies such as Fascism and Communism. Not to mention the fact that to secular super powers created a situation which could have resulted in the total annihilation of the human race of such a dumb disagreement over how countries should set up their economy (although even in that case the core considerations were much more practical and more in line with who maintains power and influence where). 

Also, I feel its unfair to focus exclusively on the times religion messes up and causes violence and ignore the role it plays in creating peace. You'll see that if you look at it like that, religion actually has a much greater positive effect than negative effect. So where has it created peace? Bluntly put, everywhere. Religion was one of the first community building ideas that the human race ever came up with. For thousands of years, people only had a few things in common. Either they were family or part of the same small scale community (your village or town). Beyond that, people had nothing with each other in common, except their religion. As such, religion worked to unify people by giving to complete strangers from different parts of the world something in common. Even now, I can draw upon my Catholic upbringing and know that people all around the world and I have a few basic things in common. As opposed to being an Atheist, in which case I would have nothing in common, not even with other Atheist, other than our mutual rejection of the same metaphysical concept and the organization around it. Its like trying to bond over both not being a fan of soccer or something. 

Then of course there are the benefits that come with organizing, the advances in culture and science that come from having such an organization. Look at Europe and the paintings inspired by religious stories, or the architectural beauty of certain cathedrals. Or the Chinese, where Confuscianism played a major role in setting up the Chinese bureaucracy, which in turn allowed them to make advances that were far ahead of everyone else at that time. Or the Egyptian and Mayan pyramids, all created for some religious reason. 

[AkemiAzula 280]

The pyramids and the cathedrals are indeed fine things but need not have been erected for religious reasons.

Extremism is an example of idealism stubbornly kicking reality and logic.

Imagine a world where there was no pain, sadness or anger, yet there were still two or more religions of an absolute 'jihadist' nature.

In such a more civilized less animal world wars would be fought with a clear head and honourably. Yet there would still be wars.

Idealism of any kind whether politicsl economical or cultural conflicts with reality when there is an opposing ideology that is not compatible, another house not another room so to speak.

If we consider good and evil as beauty and ugliness, pleasure and pain or light and dark etc then we see all ideologies are subjective, however rationalised or justified they be.

We all wish to live in a world of x devoid of y.

The problem with cellular worlds is there is still a connection, however much unfelt or unseen. Absoluteness is a principle few would compromise on if they believed in an ideology or system religiously.

There can be but one truth, though perspective glasses can make us see it differently.

Secularism removes our beer goggles and lets us gaze on natures ugliness. Religion convinces us nature is pretty, but we all differ on just what is pretty.

The problem is solved in theory by eliminating all but one 'team', by eliminating every team, by getting rid of all ideology and becoming robots with no purpose or by somehow structuring a cellular parallax of worlds that each can be absolutely normal in its own house and also somehow on a street by itself.

[Skimbo 304]

Especially religion wasn't a window dressing! Just thinking about one or the other Crusade death to millions and millions of non-christian people. Some more millions of non-chrisitans died because they "didn't obey chrisitan laws" throughout a period spanning more than 2000 years. Millions of religion-motivated homocide cases during that time period as well... Then a few tooooootally not religion-motivated actions against jews (The hate against jewst footed in religious laws!!). A little more to the east we still can see lots of religious motivated wars, for example the old conflict India-Pakistan (muslim against hindu) and so on. Not to forget the actual situartion in the middle east.

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The Christian mess in the middle ages after the fall of Rome was largely a reaction of the general decadence of the Roman Empire, but some of the "leading lights" of the Church were dim indeed and had private agendas.  I have no doubt in my mind that the Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada was as mad as a hatter, and certainly a Sadist.  Many others in the Benedictine order were the same, so one wonders if they were sweetening their wine in the Roman fashion (Sugar of Lead, Lead Acetate).

In one recorded incident in the life of Richard II (the Lion Hearted) when he was presented with a pair of disputing people, his judgement was to send them both to God to be sorted out.  Life was dirt cheap in those days.  It is surprising to me that there was any population left on earth when the Renaissance arrived, and even then assassinations and murders were commonly used to dispose of people one didn't like.  The rule of law may have had its beginnings in 1210 but it took a very long time before the rights of the common man were recognized, and even today you have fools prancing around dispensing the "high justice" on a whim.  Civilized?  Us? Hardly.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Especially religion wasn't a window dressing! Just thinking about one or the other Crusade death to millions and millions of non-christian people. Some more millions of non-chrisitans died because they "didn't obey chrisitan laws" throughout a period spanning more than 2000 years. Millions of religion-motivated homocide cases during that time period as well... Then a few tooooootally not religion-motivated actions against jews (The hate against jewst footed in religious laws!!). A little more to the east we still can see lots of religious motivated wars, for example the old conflict India-Pakistan (muslim against hindu) and so on. Not to forget the actual situartion in the middle east.

What millions upon millions are you talking about? As for the Crusade, the argument that it was window dressing most certainly applied. Religion was simply used to inspire the masses, but in reality it was much more about control over the Holy Land and its pilgrim routes, which happened to be rather lucrative for the church and which the church didn't like losing control over.  

The situation in the Middle East, as strange as it may sound, has absolutely nothing to do with religion. The Israel-Palestine conflict is a nationalist conflict, with each side fighting over the existence of their respective nation. The fact that one side happens to be predominantly Jewish and the other side predominantly Muslim is secondary. As for what happens in Syria, again religion is used as window dressing, and only then by Islamic extremists such as IS. The real thing they are fighting for is power and access to power, in particular for their chosen 'in-group' which does happen to be organized around religious lines. Still to say that they are fighting because of their religion has no basis in fact, if religion didn't exist these people would still fight, only using something else to disguise their actual motives. 

A similar argument works for India and Pakistan. Access to political power was the root cause of this conflict, in particular the fears of the Muslim minority that they would be denied access to power in the new independent India with a Hindu majority. This fear resulted in clashes, which eventually led to a conflict which saw the creation of Pakistan and became the basis for the current conflict between India and Pakistan. Of course now you can add the conflict over the Kashmir region as well, turning this conflict into an ordinary conflict about territory. Which of course remains fueled by nationalist feelings of pride and the fact that it would be political suicide for either side to back down as that would hurt the pride of the nationalists within both countries. 

As for anti-semitism, yes that originally stems from religion. But over time that too morphed into something entirely different. One can hardly argue that by the time the Nazis came around the main arguments for anti semitism were rooted in religion, having evolved into the utterly ridiculous notion that there was a biological reason for why Jews were to be considered subhuman (actually you can write that one down on the conto of 'science' thanks to the fact that people back then took bad science like eugenics very serious. Similar notions existed about non white Europeans, also supposedly supported by science). 

But as I said, religion has inspired some nastiness, its certainly not innocent. But it needs to be put it in perspective and when you do that you will notice that of all the things that inspire nastiness, religion is but one of several and certainly not the biggest one. And if you feel compelled to look at the negative aspects of religion, I would urge you to also look at the positive aspects. After all, setting up a one sided narrative about something while ignoring all the proof that suggests there is a significant other side as well would be unreasonable, no? 

 

 Life was dirt cheap in those days.  It is surprising to me that there was any population left on earth when the Renaissance arrived, and even then assassinations and murders were commonly used to dispose of people one didn't like.  The rule of law may have had its beginnings in 1210 but it took a very long time before the rights of the common man were recognized, and even today you have fools prancing around dispensing the "high justice" on a whim.  Civilized?  Us? Hardly.

Eh that is certainly what popular media wants us to believe. In reality, life back then wasn't that bad. The Arabs had their golden age, making great scientific and cultural advances and trading with large parts of the world. And the Chinese were prospering as well, trading with huge parts of the planet and maintaining their empire. Only in Europe things weren't that great, although we also shouldn't overstate how bad things were. And more importantly, the conditions present in Europe did eventually result in the creation of the modern nation state, perhaps one of the more successful ways of organizing a large community of people and the reason of much of our wealth and knowledge.  

  Edited November 9, 2015 by LexusInfernus  

[Skimbo 304]

Situation in the middle east: It's a nationalist-religious conflict now. Back then it was because of the introduction of Israel wich is caused by the holocaust whch again is caused by the hate against jews in mid-europe which again is caused because jews where richer than the average which has been caused by a christian rule that says christians are not allowed to borrow money for profit. At the end: Caused by religion-rule. Anti-Seimetism IS simply caused by religion. It's the roots of a problem that count, because without thoose, the problem would not have existed. Now the religious motives might be hollow but they're still there.

And PLEASE don't tell me religion isn't a big reason for nasty conflicts or MASSIVE deny of human rights when I have to see writigs of prophets that see the principle "eye for eye" as a legitimate way to enforce "rights", see people who believe in other religions as "godless" and therefore to be converted to the propper believe immedeatly or killed, or simply put their god aboth others.

Take this "innocent" book called "bible". You will find:

>religious intolerance
>Active orders for GENOCIDE following theese
>Active orders to FIGHT other countries that are "godless" ( WAR )
>Tolerance of CAPITAL punishments
>toleration of SLAVERY
>massive subjugation of women
>many, many morally or ethnically alarming rules and statements

 

I see this and many other religious books as one main reason for many evils. If some powerful people used this for other profits - then it's at least as much the bible's fault that it doesn't forbid such actions but legitimates them. 

 

And yes, I am "godless". And I'm proud of it.

 

  Edited November 10, 2015 by Skimbo  

[Sabretooth78 808]

All of the acts of violence in the Bible are of a historical context.  To my knowledge, there are no open-ended directives of violence.  Of course, this is not true of all religions.  Just sayin'.

Also, regarding anti-semitism, Hitler was a disenchanted Christian, so if he was religiously motivated it was subconscious, and if it was subconscious, there might be something else to the story we don't know about.  He actually professed a wish that, if anything, the Reconquista had failed such that Germany could've developed under a less "flabby" Islam.  Again, just sayin'.

Fascists don't really care about religion.  They are their own god.

[Meg 368]

Starbucks hates Jesus?     Seriously?

 Why do some people believe that a company like Starbucks -- or anyone else for that matter -- is required to celebrate their holiday?

How is it "hating Jesus" or a "war on Christmas" if a person or company chooses to observe the holiday in a different way?  or not at all?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This has certainly wandered off from its original purpose.  I think all this can't should move to the "Religion Thread".

Remember the topic was about the beating death of a teenager by a cult.