Slavery around the world.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Index of World Slavery Published.

 

The idea of owning a person makes my gorge rise.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I suppose the problem is some work is too complicated for machines or horses to do. But I think with robotic advancements this will become as old fashioned as horse drawn trams

[LexusInfernus 908]

Robots are still expensive. Slaves however are not. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Slaves are also self-replicating.

[Themaroonday 40]

This is deplorable. I can't believe that this many people are treated like this all over the world. Countries and communities need to carry out laws that combat these kinds of injustices. Simply deplorable...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

If you will recall, the British Empire abolished slavery in about 1860, and the U.S. in about the same time frame complete with a civil war over it.  I am sure other enlightened sovereignties did at about the same time.  However, the one country that wanted the British Raj out so desperately is also the worst offender in this group. 

 

Does anyone have a feeling for slavery in India before 1947?  I have a feeling the the Raj was laissez faire on this.

 

By the way, one form of slavery practised in North America is the entry-level people working for nothing to gain experience.  They should get at least minimum wage and whatever benefits they would be eligible for.  They should be on the payroll, no fooling.  Industry will always use "free" labour if it can get it.

[AkemiAzula 280]

We are all slaves more or less. Who truly has any 'freedom' (no Metal Puritan, we don't need to hear your life story and your advice on belt material) in this world? However there are certain 'freedoms' which we should within reason expect. 

 

However for many working class people such simple freedoms as owning ones own residence, and the ability to live where one wishes do not exist. Also anyone who has to keep down a job in order to feed themselves and pay rent can hardly be considered free, and this restricts true 'democracy' whereby individuals can have control over themselves.

 

In a Newtonian universe such as ours freedom is measured relatively, but certainly we must strive to stamp out the more obvious abuses of people throughout the world, and spread awareness of the concept of human dignity and that of rational acceptance of the importance of these 'rights'.

 

I think at the very least we should make sure to further the cause for that most basic of 'rights', the 'freedom' to say as we feel fit, if not to act.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The first amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America is the one that gives the right of free speech.  However, Justice Holmes of the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that this does not give anyone the right to yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Freedom of speech might exist in theory. But the theatre example is too basic to cover life's many situations. In most cases we end up saying what others wish us to say. If your boss is stupid but you can get a promotion by accepting his stupidity, you go along with what he says. In the ideal world we could say exactly what we thought without others being able to turn what we say against us. 

 

However my point was more about self expression in all areas, not purely speech. The right to be oneself if not to do as one pleases.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This is one of the main tenets of being an American.  It doesn't fly most places in the Commonwealth of Nations simply because, while we allow "freedom of speech and assembly" we also curtail hate organizations and hate speeches.

 

Not too long ago, a prominent first nations figure got into very deep hot water by comparing a group he was talking about publicly with the NAZIs.  There was a move to kick him out of the Order of Canada which is about as big a dishonour as you can get in this country.  It would be like having your seat declared vacant in the House of Lords (artificial declaration of death).

[Meg 368]

 

By the way, one form of slavery practised in North America is the entry-level people working for nothing to gain experience.  They should get at least minimum wage and whatever benefits they would be eligible for.  They should be on the payroll, no fooling.  Industry will always use "free" labour if it can get it.

 

As I understand the definitions, unpaid volunteer work doesn't count as slavery because it is voluntary.

[Easy Bakes 253]

 

 

By the way, one form of slavery practised in North America is the entry-level people working for nothing to gain experience.  They should get at least minimum wage and whatever benefits they would be eligible for.  They should be on the payroll, no fooling.  Industry will always use "free" labour if it can get it.

 

As I understand the definitions, unpaid volunteer work doesn't count as slavery because it is voluntary.

 

think he was talking about Internships.

[Meg 368]

Internships are also voluntary.   Necessary, perhaps, in some fields but still voluntary.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Here in the UK those on Jobseekers will be forced to work for the dole soon. Not that I think that's a bad thing. If I could have gained employment years ago when I got on the dole I would have, obviously. But few things in this world are truly 'voluntary' lol

[zahrul3 471]

What is the definition of 'slavery' here? Does it only count unpaid workers?

[LexusInfernus 908]

Internships are also voluntary.   Necessary, perhaps, in some fields but still voluntary.

Its still ridiculous. Companies are firing real employees because they can get their work done by unpaid interns. Yeah, its 'voluntary' simply because you can't get anything else. Its disgusting. And people wonder why the economy is doing so bad. Well, this is one reason. 

[Meg 368]

What is the definition of 'slavery' here? Does it only count unpaid workers?

 

 

According to this site:

 

 

 

Slavery – a relationship in which one person is controlled by violence through violence, the threat of violence, or psychological coercion, has lost free will and free movement, is exploited economically, and paid nothing beyond subsistence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zahrul3 471]

 

Internships are also voluntary.   Necessary, perhaps, in some fields but still voluntary.

Its still ridiculous. Companies are firing real employees because they can get their work done by unpaid interns. Yeah, its 'voluntary' simply because you can't get anything else. Its disgusting. And people wonder why the economy is doing so bad. Well, this is one reason. 

 

 

Can someone care to explain why this exists in Western countries? Indonesia does have "internships" to gain work experience, but you are actually paid and it happens after university, so it doesn't interfere with studies.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Being an unpaid intern or volunteer is still slavery.  The coercion is the carrot of experience held out by the indenturing outfits.  Minimum wage, at least, should be paid.  By employing such people, corporations avoid paying for all kinds of mandatory things for people actually on their payroll.  A slave, voluntary or not, is still a slave.

[hym 358]

Having been through several internships/co-ops, I have to agree with Meg.  Calling an intern, even an unpaid one, a slave is an extreme insult to people who really are enslaved.  No one is forcing you to show up there, nor are they forcing you to keep working there if you don't want to.  (If they are, blame the government that gives the company the ability to do that.)

 

It has been my experience that, if the company has a dedicated internship program, the interns are usually treated very well.  As an intern/co-op, I have been invited to meetings I had no business attending, just because they had awesome food at the meeting.  If a vendor decided to take the group out for lunch, I have almost always been invited to go along.  I got to attend an off site lunch & learn on IEEE 1584-2002 "IEEE Guide for Performing Arc Flash Hazard Calculations" simply because the two managers agreed it would be good for me if I got to attend the presentation.  I've gotten to be the official company representative at factory acceptance tests.  I've run projects over $1 million multiple times.  I have been to several company sponsored lunch & learns and conferences organized exclusively for the purpose of offering learning opportunities to the interns.

 

My experience has been better than most, but at the same time, odds are good that if the company has any kind of dedicated internship program, management probably recognizes the value of treating the interns well.  Management knows very well that interns get an opportunity for a very good look at the company from the inside, and they are making decisions as to whether they really want to work for you in the future.  In the era of the disposable employee, it is easy for a qualified individual to switch companies if he doesn't like the one he interned at previously.  Do you really want to invest 10, 20, or 30 thousand into an employee who takes that knowledge and skill to your competitor?

[LexusInfernus 908]

Do you really want an economy where companies are laying off real employees and replacing them by unpaid interns because thats cheaper? And I can assure you, those companies do not treat their interns well. They do not care about making internship into some kind of learning experience for the intern, they are just using it to let people do real work for them for free under the guise of an 'internship'. And its great for them because as an intern, you have very few actual rights or protection against abuse. 

 

And these companies can do it because they know that jobs are scarce and every real job requires 'experience' so there are enough people who are willing to intern at a company just so they can put some actual experience on their cv. 

 

I agree though, its not slavery. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Interesting reaction to my reductio ad absurdum argument.  I agree that pre-arranged co-op education positions in some professions, engineering most commonly, are a good thing.  The question is whether you get:

 

a) paid

b) the knowledge you need to continue your schooling.

 

I am against unpaid internships for the reasons already elicited.  You can't eat an unpaid internship.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Well that is one reason why unpaid internships are not slavery. You can actually eat slavery. At least in slavery the owner of the slaves do have to take care of them. Provide them with food and a place to sleep so that they remain functional and thus useful to the owner. 

[bobjohncicken 4]

well if you think that accepting a job that pays low is slavery, then you are out of your mind!

[Duke87 1,070]

Internships are there as a stepping stone to a fulltime career. The "paid slavery" argument applies more to people who are working for $7.25 an hour (minimum wage) with no opportunity for advancement and no hope of ever getting a raise. People in this position struggle to afford the basic necessities of staying alive, and are "enslaved" in the sense that they have no time or money for personal pursuits and no opportunity to change that. Which is admittedly not the same thing as being chained up or whipped but at the same time it's tough to argue that it's fair for people in the developed world to live that way.

 

 

As for the more classic slavery being explored in the original topic here, it seems to me that often it's less an issue of lack of laws prohibiting it so much as it is an issue of lack of enforcement of said laws (or more specifically, an issue where offenders just have to bribe the police in order to stay out of trouble). I'm sure many of these slaves are working as prostitutes and that a good number of those are children - this is a thing in some places and it even generates "sex tourism" where pedophiles with money can go and have sex with kids in some part of the world where they can do so without fear of legal consequence. Charming, isn't it?