Newcomer questions

[ndelapiedra 0]

So like many others who got scammed by EA bought Simcity (2013), I've come back to Simcity 4.  Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised with the complexity of the game that I failed to realize as a kid and the entire mod community that I never knew existed.

 

So after playing for a couple weeks and experimenting with the 'standard' mods I've installed all the fixes and settled on playing with SPAM and NAM installed (Maxis highways and NWM. not RHW).

 

I have some specific questions though that I hope you all can answer.

 

1. Is there ever a reason to zone High Density Industrial?  With Industry restricted to three stages, is it worth paying 2.5x for High Density over Medium? Ie, is the diff between stage two and three the same as with R/C and semi-negligible or is I stage 3 roughly R/C stage 8.

 

2. If two city's are connected at non-synchronous points does it 'nullify' the connections?  For example, in the picture below if you start in City A and make connection 1, then play city B and make connection 2.  What happens? Treats them as one universal connection, treat connection 2 only as an "outgoing" connection and connection 1 as an unconnected "incoming" connection or some other third option....and what if you start in A and play B THEN go back to A (without joining the connections)?

 

 

3. CS/CO.  Is one more desiarable than the other (based on income, pollution, etc.. on a per tile or worker basis)?  I understand how to affect demand for each from https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=963.0 , now I just need to know what to aim for.

 

4. Does tax income come from taxing building value or building worth? I know that taxes come from taxing the building not the residents/workers in said building.  http://www.simcitycentral.net/knowledge/simcity4/simcity-4-building-reference-list/ lists two monetary amounts for each building, which one is the one used for taxation purposes?....and while we're here, what is the other valuation used for?

 

5. Semi related, R lower density buildings pay significantly more taxes/head (although clearly, more taxes/tile).  Is it a similar situation for C/I, and can anyone link me to a list/table that has buildings income per head or tile?

 

6. But WAIT, there's more! I have more questions that I can't immediately think of right now, I'll add em as I come across them.

[timmie 988]

I have changed the title to a more appropriate one. It might be recommendable, however, to make thematic threads and post questions in other relevant threads, since threads like this are confusing (for example: you can only give it a vague title,...). It might be better to keep stuff thematically coherent.

-timmie

[ndelapiedra 0]

I have changed the title to a more appropriate one. It might be recommendable, however, to make thematic threads and post questions in other relevant threads, since threads like this are confusing (for example: you can only give it a vague title,...). It might be better to keep stuff thematically coherent.

-timmie

 

[Bdub01 201]

I can't answer all the questions however, I always zone high density industrial unless of course I'm making a farming community.

I don't really understand the next question. A connection is a connection I don't think of one as being outgoing and one incoming.

Honestly I don't think there is a major difference in desiring CS and CO. CO is what gives you skyscrapers and CS is like your grocery stores etc. The last two questions bout taxes I can't say much about. I don't get into the down and dirty of it. I just tax what I don't want to the max and keep them lower on what I want in the city.

[lhrob 213]

So like many others who got scammed by EA bought Simcity (2013), I've come back to Simcity 4.  Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised with the complexity of the game that I failed to realize as a kid and the entire mod community that I never knew existed.

 

So after playing for a couple weeks and experimenting with the 'standard' mods I've installed all the fixes and settled on playing with SPAM and NAM installed (Maxis highways and NWM. not RHW).

 

I have some specific questions though that I hope you all can answer.

 

1. Is there ever a reason to zone High Density Industrial?  With Industry restricted to three stages, is it worth paying 2.5x for High Density over Medium? Ie, is the diff between stage two and three the same as with R/C and semi-negligible or is I stage 3 roughly R/C stage 8.

 

2. If two city's are connected at non-synchronous points does it 'nullify' the connections?  For example, in the picture below if you start in City A and make connection 1, then play city B and make connection 2.  What happens? Treats them as one universal connection, treat connection 2 only as an "outgoing" connection and connection 1 as an unconnected "incoming" connection or some other third option....and what if you start in A and play B THEN go back to A (without joining the connections)?

 

 

3. CS/CO.  Is one more desiarable than the other (based on income, pollution, etc.. on a per tile or worker basis)?  I understand how to affect demand for each from https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=963.0 , now I just need to know what to aim for.

 

4. Does tax income come from taxing building value or building worth? I know that taxes come from taxing the building not the residents/workers in said building.  http://www.simcitycentral.net/knowledge/simcity4/simcity-4-building-reference-list/ lists two monetary amounts for each building, which one is the one used for taxation purposes?....and while we're here, what is the other valuation used for?

 

5. Semi related, R lower density buildings pay significantly more taxes/head (although clearly, more taxes/tile).  Is it a similar situation for C/I, and can anyone link me to a list/table that has buildings income per head or tile?

 

6. But WAIT, there's more! I have more questions that I can't immediately think of right now, I'll add em as I come across them.

 

 

I can't answer all of your questions, but will try a few.  I'm sure others will come along who are much more knowledgeable about this stuff.  There are different types of players...those who are really into the dynamics of how the game functions, such as it seems you are.  And then there are people such as myself, who are artisans at heart and only see the game as a blank canvas upon which they can paint whatever's in their imagination.  So onwards...

 

1.  Yes.  The reason is because you want to strive for high tech industry (I-HT), and it will only grow in high density industrial zones.  I-HT is important if you want to have wealthy Sims in your city who are employed and happy, and it also helps create demand for certain other rewards in the game which are beneficial.  There is a mod you can download which allows only dirty industry to grow in medium density industrial zones, and only high tech in high density zones.  If you don't use that mod, you will get a mix of dirty industry and high tech in high density zones.

 

2.  No, it doesn't nullify the connections....well, not really.  What happens when you are actively playing a city and create a neighbor connection is that it opens a portal to the next city so that Sims can enter/exit the city you're currently playing, and it allows freight to leave the city.  When you have a connection coming into your city from an adjacent city, but it's not connected to a transit network in your current city, then it's basically just a marker to let you know where the connection has been placed in the neighboring city.  In other words, if you have a transit connection to a neighboring city, then the Sims in the city you're currently working on will use it to enter and exit the city.  Freight will leave the city, but not enter the city.  As for what happens after Sims or freight leave the city....well, nothing happens.  It's just a visual representation of what's going on in the game.  I hope that makes sense.  If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

3.  It depends on how well-established your city is, and what its population is, as well as wealth levels, etc.  Generally, the lower population/lower wealth cities or neighborhoods will have a greater desire for CS, whereas higher populations/higher wealth will see a greater demand for CO. 

 

 

I'll let other people tackle #4 and #5, because I honestly don't know.  I never pay attention to that stuff because I always use money cheats.

[ndelapiedra 0]

 

2.  No, it doesn't nullify the connections....well, not really.  What happens when you are actively playing a city and create a neighbor connection is that it opens a portal to the next city so that Sims can enter/exit the city you're currently playing, and it allows freight to leave the city.  When you have a connection coming into your city from an adjacent city, but it's not connected to a transit network in your current city, then it's basically just a marker to let you know where the connection has been placed in the neighboring city.  In other words, if you have a transit connection to a neighboring city, then the Sims in the city you're currently working on will use it to enter and exit the city.  Freight will leave the city, but not enter the city.  As for what happens after Sims or freight leave the city....well, nothing happens.  It's just a visual representation of what's going on in the game.  I hope that makes sense.  If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

 

That makes sense.

 

I guess my real question was if I play A then B then go back to A does the simulator know that my connection (connection 1) goes to empty unconnected tiles in B?  Based on what you wrote, you indirectly answered that as "nope, it's cool.  Keep calm and play on"

 

It all stemmed from reading about RHW neighbor connection pieces (and how they are required b/c simulation needed sims to enter/exit via same tile for functioning connection).

 

 

3.  It depends on how well-established your city is, and what its population is, as well as wealth levels, etc.  Generally, the lower population/lower wealth cities or neighborhoods will have a greater desire for CS, whereas higher populations/higher wealth will see a greater demand for CO. 

 

 

 

Right, but besides meeting demand and/or increasing CO demand to get skyscrapers is there a diff.  Ie, are there any situations it'd be beneficial to altering demand to favor one or the other.  Like, does CO$$$ pay less taxes than CS$$$ (assuming same stage dev etc...) or something along those lines.

[Bdub01 201]

Right, but besides meeting demand and/or increasing CO demand to get skyscrapers is there a diff. Ie, are there any situations it'd be beneficial to altering demand to favor one or the other. Like, does CO$$$ pay less taxes than CS$$$ (assuming same stage dev etc...) or something along those lines.

Not really as far as I know. You decide the taxes yourself. If the taxes are on the default setting I don't think there is a difference in how much you get per sim. If I am wrong then please let me know to whoever else answers this question!!!

[lhrob 213]

That makes sense.

 

I guess my real question was if I play A then B then go back to A does the simulator know that my connection (connection 1) goes to empty unconnected tiles in B?

In a manner of speaking, yes.  But it ignores that fact.  All it sees is a connection to the neighboring city.  And since it sees a connection, it treats it as though it's connected on the other side....whether it goes to empty tiles on the other side or not.  But when you're playing a city, the simulator only focuses on the active city you're playing.  It couldn't care less what is happening in a neighboring town.  So if Sims or freight choose to exit A and go to B through connection 1, so be it.  The simulator no longer keeps track of it after that point, except to note how much freight left the city and how many Sims entered or exited the city through that portal.

 

It all stemmed from reading about RHW neighbor connection pieces (and how they are required b/c simulation needed sims to enter/exit via same tile for functioning connection).

 

When you create a connection to a neighboring city, a little bit of the pieces actually show up in the neighboring city.  It protrudes into the neighboring city for a distance of 3 tiles.  For instance, when you extend a railroad to the end of the map and accept the neighbor connection, you will see a 3-tile long section of railroad in the adjacent city you've connected to.  If you want that connection to be reciprocal, you will have to connect a railroad to it from the other side.  So I may be wrong (because I don't use RHW), but it stands to reason it works in a similar fashion with the RHW pieces.  Just like the railroad piece (or a road or avenue or water pipe), I think the reason the same RHW pieces would be needed in order for the connection to function is because you have to connect "like pieces" to "like pieces".  Someone from the NAM team can answer this better than I can. 

 

 

Right, but besides meeting demand and/or increasing CO demand to get skyscrapers is there a diff.  Ie, are there any situations it'd be beneficial to altering demand to favor one or the other.  Like, does CO$$$ pay less taxes than CS$$$ (assuming same stage dev etc...) or something along those lines.

 

You would need to open your RCI bar graph to see which one had higher demand.  But yes, there's a difference.  CO...Commercial Office...is more geared toward high-wealth Sims, whereas CS...Commercial Services...is more geared toward lower and middle wealth Sims.  You need a mix of both in each city, but how much of each is determined by all the other conditions in your city.  As for taxes, you can set individual tax rates for each to help influence demand.  The level at which you set those tax rates is what determines how much gets paid by each.  I may not be answering that question adequately, since, as I said, I don't mess with taxes.  I just build cities for the sake of expressing my artistic side.  Since I add millions and millions to my coffers using a money cheat, I don't think about whether CO$$$ is bringing in more than CS$$$.  However, as a general rule, I would think CO$$$ probably brings in more, because CO$$$ generally employs more Sims than CS$$$.

[ndelapiedra 0]

tldr; CS>CO for taxing purposes.  CO>>CS in jobs/tile (assuming equitable $$/$$$,growth stage, etc...)

 

 

 

 

Right, but besides meeting demand and/or increasing CO demand to get skyscrapers is there a diff. Ie, are there any situations it'd be beneficial to altering demand to favor one or the other. Like, does CO$$$ pay less taxes than CS$$$ (assuming same stage dev etc...) or something along those lines.

Not really as far as I know. You decide the taxes yourself. If the taxes are on the default setting I don't think there is a difference in how much you get per sim. If I am wrong then please let me know to whoever else answers this question!!!

 

 

 

 

 
 

Right, but besides meeting demand and/or increasing CO demand to get skyscrapers is there a diff.  Ie, are there any situations it'd be beneficial to altering demand to favor one or the other.  Like, does CO$$$ pay less taxes than CS$$$ (assuming same stage dev etc...) or something along those lines.

 

You would need to open your RCI bar graph to see which one had higher demand.  But yes, there's a difference.  CO...Commercial Office...is more geared toward high-wealth Sims, whereas CS...Commercial Services...is more geared toward lower and middle wealth Sims.  You need a mix of both in each city, but how much of each is determined by all the other conditions in your city.  As for taxes, you can set individual tax rates for each to help influence demand.  The level at which you set those tax rates is what determines how much gets paid by each.  I may not be answering that question adequately, since, as I said, I don't mess with taxes.  I just build cities for the sake of expressing my artistic side.  Since I add millions and millions to my coffers using a money cheat, I don't think about whether CO$$$ is bringing in more than CS$$$.  However, as a general rule, I would think CO$$$ probably brings in more, because CO$$$ generally employs more Sims than CS$$$.

 

 

 

Changing the tax wasn't really what I meant, it was more if there exists a difference in the value to which that rate is applied to...turns out there is.

 

Found the following informative thread. 

 

From said thread

 

 

 

Despite this good news there are some things to worry about. First of all, the higher income is mainly caused by the higher taxes for I-D. This is temporarily since they don't pay 20% forever. The second thing is that my residential demand is still fluctuating too much, I think the cause of this is too much zoning. This should mean that I should demolish residential zones which leads to a lower population and lower income. I don't know whether that is the right thing to do. What is the best way to get this demand more stabilized?

By your first issue, it appears that in the long run, your budget is still unbalanced. It may help to revisit how taxes are computed. Each building has a value which depends on its developer type, wealth, and size. That value is multiplied by the tax rate to give a certain monthly income to the city. I performed some experiments and have computed the following (very rough) values for each resident/job:

R$: $0.6
R$$: $1.4
R$$$: $4
CS$: $0.6
CS$$: $3
CS$$$: $11
CO$$: $0.5
CO$$$: $1
I-Ag: $4
I-D: $2.6
I-M: $2.6
I-H: $2.6

For example, a single CO$$ skyscraper with 4,000 jobs and taxed at 9% is expected to bring in 0.5*4000*0.09 = $180 per month. Note that CS$$$ is worth a lot, so try to encourage it. In my city of 800K sims and 400K commercial, CS$$$ takes up only 40K but brings in a third of my income.

For your second question, no, it won't help.

 

 

and

 

 

First off, it's true that higher-density buldings pay lower taxes per occupant. Much lower than many players may think. The property that determines the taxes paid is Building Value (for Maxis buildings it is located in the family's Building Cohort rather than the Building Exemplar - use iLive's Navigator tool to see the list of lots and buildings). The pic below shows most (but not all) R buildings in the Euro tileset:



As you can see, in general the bigger the building the higher the taxes paid, but the lower the taxes per occupant. Some buldings, like Pane View Condos are not in line with the others. This is just poor modding. This is a tall building with many occupants, but put into the same family with other buildings (in the other three tilesets) accommodating much fewer occupants; the only thing they have in common is the building's base size, and that's why they put it in the same family (and therefore lots). Stats (incl taxes) should be different.

I think the reason why you are getting low taxes is the wealth mix of the development in the city. Too many R$ residents, very few R$$ and much fewer R$$$. You need better jobs, if you want to attract more R$$ and R$$$ sims. The building types that offer the best wealth mix are CO$$, CO$$$ and I-HT. Take a look here. But these require a highly educated workforce, so you need to provide full educational coverage to all wealth levels: elementary & high school and library locally, also college/university and museum (these have city-wide coverage). Play with the sliders so that the bill is affordable; you can also play with bus/ambulance funding (don't serve uninhabited areas). After some time, EQ and subsequently CO$$ and CO$$$ demand will rise, and you will be able to attract richer sims.

Another problem is the abudance of dirty industry. It consumes a lot of power (so you need more power plants), produces garbage (yet more expenses), pollutes (you will need water treatment plants, or import water), takes up a a lot of space (it has eaten up ca 1/3 of your land and you 've got just some 6000 poor jobs) and doesn't pay well unless you overtax it! So I would suggest keep overtaxing it and let it replaced gradually by I-M and I-HT (get rid of the ). But still, it takes a lot of space and employs few workers, so consider rezoning part of it to commercial. Don't worry about your low-wealth sims (you don't want more anyway, do you?), if demand for R$ turns negative you can zone some little more C and get CS development (even CS$ is better than I-D) if you have demand. Finally demand for I-D will drop as EQ rises, and your sims will no longer want to work there, so it won't be a real "loss". As soon as R$$ and R$$$ demand starts picking up, try to "satisfy" it (cause development). And don't snub CS either, CS$$ and CS$$$ pay a lot of taxes, while CS$ can provide jobs for your poor sims.

 

....
[snipped]

...

As you can see in the pic, most of the R$$ development is condos and most of R$ Ellery Elm Tennements (along with some few larger tennements). There's some lowrise development too. Not sure what will happen when I start getting hirises, but as you can see in the table the difference in taxes per occupant between R$$ condos and R$$ hirises isn't that high. A big source of income is CS$$$ and CS$$. CO$$ and CO$$$ don't pay really high taxes, although they employ the most sims by far.

If you are interested in how to build a region (or city) without industry, take a look at  Also take a look  see how you can get the development type you want. See some money-making tips 

Let's see how it turns out.

 

[sfy2004 0]

The reason is because you want to strive for high tech industry (I-HT), and it will only grow in high density industrial zones.  I-HT is important if you want to have wealthy Sims in your city who are employed and happy, and it also helps create demand for certain other rewards in the game which are beneficial.  There is a mod you can download which allows only dirty industry to grow in medium density industrial zones, and only high tech in high density zones.  If you don't use that mod, you will get a mix of dirty industry and high tech in high density zones.

 

 

 

hate to jump into a conversation, but could someone point me in the direction of the mod spoken about? looks like just the thing i have been wanting.

[Dazzyls 576]

Can I ask something???

 

I've installed the Darknite mod, but it doesn't work. Only the street lights and the lights of not-downloaded houses work and if it's night, the whole city is extremely dark! (except for the bridges) Does anybody have a solution?

[lhrob 213]

 

The reason is because you want to strive for high tech industry (I-HT), and it will only grow in high density industrial zones.  I-HT is important if you want to have wealthy Sims in your city who are employed and happy, and it also helps create demand for certain other rewards in the game which are beneficial.  There is a mod you can download which allows only dirty industry to grow in medium density industrial zones, and only high tech in high density zones.  If you don't use that mod, you will get a mix of dirty industry and high tech in high density zones.

 

 

 

hate to jump into a conversation, but could someone point me in the direction of the mod spoken about? looks like just the thing i have been wanting.

 

 

Industrial Revolution Mod.  Go to this link >  

 

 

Can I ask something???

 

I've installed the Darknite mod, but it doesn't work. Only the street lights and the lights of not-downloaded houses work and if it's night, the whole city is extremely dark! (except for the bridges) Does anybody have a solution?

 

I presume you have Rush Hour or Deluxe installed?  If so, tell us which version number of the game you have.  (Hint:  Hover your mouse over the Simcity 4.exe icon in your programs folder.)  It sounds like you aren't updated to version 1.1.640, which is required for custom night-lighting to work.  If you don't have that version, let us know and we'll direct you to where you can download the update.

[Dazzyls 576]

I have version 1.2.0.112

Is that wrong?

[Cyclone Boom 16,829]

To install the nightlights update described by lhrob, you'll first need to update to 1.1.638.0 . This is known as the "EP1 update", and can be found on this page at SC4 Devotion.
Select the correct version depending on your game's region (e.g. SKU 1 = North America, SKU 2 = Europe). Then simply extract and run the installer.
 
Once you've done this, check that it was successful by confirming your SimCity 4.exe file reads 1.1.638.0 . Then, do the same with the nightlights update, which can be downloaded from here (direct link), this should update the game to a fully patched 1.1.640.0 , and will allow nightlights to work on custom BATs.
 
Lastly, your game's graphics settings may be reset during the update process. This can affect how some buildings appear (i.e. a lack of props). So to check this, open your "Graphic Options", and make sure "City Detail" is set to High:
 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

To truly check your version use windows explorer (file system) to find SimCity 4.exe then hover your mouse over it.  If your version number doesn't look like 1,1,6xx you do not have even the Rush Hour expansion pack.  Version 1,1,2xx is SC 4 original edition.

 

Versions:

 

1,1,2xx - SimCity 4

1,1,610 - Rush Hour/Deluxe US edition out of the box.

1,1,638 - 1,1,6xx + EP1 - debugged deluxe

1,1,640 - fully patched deluxe ready with night lights for custom content

1,1,641 - fully patched deluxe digital download - no play disk required.

[.anonyman 28]

 

1.  Yes.  The reason is because you want to strive for high tech industry (I-HT), and it will only grow in high density industrial zones.  I-HT is important if you want to have wealthy Sims in your city who are employed and happy, and it also helps create demand for certain other rewards in the game which are beneficial.  There is a mod you can download which allows only dirty industry to grow in medium density industrial zones, and only high tech in high density zones.  If you don't use that mod, you will get a mix of dirty industry and high tech in high density zones.

 

I know I'm late in joining this thread, but just wanted to clarify this answer. I-HT DOES grow on med. density zones, along with I-M and I-D. And while it's possible for I-D and I-HT to share a zone (med. or high density), the desirability factors for I-HT make it very unlikely. With TWreck's Industrial Revolution Mod, that combination is impossible but you'll still see I-M mixed with both other types.

 

To answer the OP's question (whether to bother zoning high density industrial), I personally never used to bother before installing the Ind. Rev. mod. Now that I have to use high-density to get high tech, I'm seeing many more large factories instead of the usual sea of smokestacks and tanks. So, it is worth zoning for.

[lhrob 213]

 

 

1.  Yes.  The reason is because you want to strive for high tech industry (I-HT), and it will only grow in high density industrial zones.  I-HT is important if you want to have wealthy Sims in your city who are employed and happy, and it also helps create demand for certain other rewards in the game which are beneficial.  There is a mod you can download which allows only dirty industry to grow in medium density industrial zones, and only high tech in high density zones.  If you don't use that mod, you will get a mix of dirty industry and high tech in high density zones.

 

I know I'm late in joining this thread, but just wanted to clarify this answer. I-HT DOES grow on med. density zones, along with I-M and I-D. And while it's possible for I-D and I-HT to share a zone (med. or high density), the desirability factors for I-HT make it very unlikely. With TWreck's Industrial Revolution Mod, that combination is impossible but you'll still see I-M mixed with both other types.

 

To answer the OP's question (whether to bother zoning high density industrial), I personally never used to bother before installing the Ind. Rev. mod. Now that I have to use high-density to get high tech, I'm seeing many more large factories instead of the usual sea of smokestacks and tanks. So, it is worth zoning for.

 

 

You're absolutely correct, and I thank you for catching my mistake.  The message I was trying to convey is that you should strive for high-wealth industry - which is generally more associated with high-density zones.  Somehow my brain got confuddled as I was trying to express that message.  Actually, I need to remember that there is dirty industry, manufacturing industry, and high-tech industry.  Sometimes I refer to manufacturing as dirty industry, even though it's different.  So I'm sure that was partially what was coursing through my head when I left my initial response.  I need to be more cognizant of that differentiation.  

 

Anyway, when using the IRM, you actually get both high-tech industry and manufacturing in high-density zones - but you will NOT get dirty industry in high-density zones when using it.

 

At any rate, our message is the same.....yes, you should zone for high-density industrial.