A new exe, and game

[Cire360 6]

First, I should probably introduce myself here at Simtroplis. I've been playing sim games for quite awhile now, and was directed here after a topic I attempted to get started on SC4 Devotion was locked before it had a chance to take wing by another member of this site who saw merit with the work i've done.

I've been tinkering with this idea for sometime now, and slowly banging out some code here and there in hopes to create a hybrid game that is similar to Simcity4 but different. Using existing resources, cuts development time down considerably. Todate i've come quite aways, almost finished the basic simulator for growth, activity, and somewhat very crude traffic simulator, thou nowhere near a beta yet, work does progress rather nicely.

Anyhow I'm now at a kinda turning point, as i don't want to make a 'replacement' exe, as this breaks copyright infrigements, but more so a better simulator using existing SC4 resources.

Before I really get started, i'd like to know if this is allowed here, as there is no need in requesting peoples ideas, or for me to dump an already existing feature list, only to have the topic locked shortly here after because Simtropolis opposes this type of work.

Hopefully an admin will give the go ahead.

Thanks for your time.

[MandelSoft 2,774]

Sorry, same rules apply here. We've already gone through this on SC4Devotion.com. This is against the site rules and we promised not to modify the exe, as part of our code of conduct to Maxis.

-- Topic closed

[Zelgadis 638]

I spoke with Dirk on the matter, and this is what he said:

i think it's OK, if you want to post and say we're open to it, but we would respect any request that comes from ea/maxis should it ever happen. I'm with you, i think it's fine

So, we'll let this move forward based on the above parameters.

ISF

[NCGAIO 562]

Modifications of the EXE even if possible would lead to the same problems that GOASKIN had in the past.

What seems to be the intent is to take advantage of the already some developed code to implement a new simulator that would be a problem of copywright not exactly the modify.

Everyone knows that the position of the EA is always the most aggressive possible as it did when it prohibited several small sites to distribute the games they already considered as abandonware as SimCopter SimTower and others.

Now the creators have always been more flexible as can be seen in the discussion in Devotion about a SDK possible! LINK

So before anyone takes any attitude would not hurt to let the matter be continued.

  Edited July 2, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Cire360 6]

Sweet, and for the record i am not 'altering' the exe, I'm creating brand new source code that will use bat and lots, to save alot of development time.

The following are a list of ideas (not all mine which were posted on another site). Some i've already begun implementing.

The first is to do away with how the region map works, instead think of the region as 1 very large city, the user is then given a choice of a size of a city area he or she wishes to work with, similar to small, medium, and large cities that we edit now, but difference is as the user moves his or her mouse over the region the window location will follow within that mouse location, allowing a free editing at just about any location, Changing stuff at this location will effect the entire surrounding areas, in other words the entire region will become all tied together. By holding down the control key and moving the mouse against the left,right,top,bottom borders one can move into nearby tiles that are outa view for editing.

Simulation as it stands now:

Some users believe that we should extend the simulation to have 5 zones now instand of 4, others belive the standard 4 are all that is required, I've taken the best ideas and implemented these so far.

First Residential, there are many views on things that need changed here, however most are in agreement that $,$$,$$$ will have have different requirements. All Residential now will require 4 things to grow, first is water, second is food, which comes from farming zones (more on this later), third is a power, and finaly a job.

$, or low wealth Citizens will complain, and not be happy until they receive elementary school education. These citizens will tolerate traffic noise, and high levels of pollution, will use whatever means of transportation available to them, will not complain about heavy traffic and commute times. Will require commercial services at least 100 tiles from thier home. Will be happy if given standard television, and phone services ( new civic utilities).

$$ wealth Citizens, require elementary and will not be happy until they receive a high school education. These citizens will tolerate upto medium levels of traffic noise, and medium levels of pollution. They will use all means of mass transit transportation, whatever gets them thier the fastest. Thier job can be no more then 400 tiles away. If thier job takes more then 1h to get to they will become upset and attempt to move closer. They require commercial services as well as commercial office at least 100 tiles from thier home. They require standard civic services television, phone, and will be happy with internet service, as well as cell phone services (new civic). They must have fire coverage.

$$$ wealth citizens require high school education, and will not be happy until both a collage is located at least 100 tiles from thier homes, and a university is located within the city. They tolerate only low levels of traffic noise, and pollution. They will NOT use mass transit at all. Thier job can be no more then 200 tiles away. They require commercial services and offices nearby at least 50 tiles. They require all standard civic services including television, phone, internet and cell phone carriers. They must have fire and police coverage, with max funding.

New rules for zoning. Now when you zone Residential areas, it will remain undeveloped for the the first 30 seconds, giving you time to click on the zone, doing so will place a '$' on the zone, clicking again places a '$$' and once again a '$$$', one more click will remove specific zone types allowing it to develop naturally. If you place a '$$' on the zone, then the zone becomes locked to only grow $$ wealth residential, but you must meet thier requirements before growth will occur on the zone.

Unemployment: Any $ wealth citizen can remain unemployed and will be a drain on your cashflow, $$ classed citizens will remain unemplyed for upto 6 months, and then move out of the city, $$$ citizens without a job will move after 1 month of not having a job. $$ will take $ jobs if no $$ jobs exists.

Parks:

parks no longer effect the wealth of citizens, and now not only absorb pollution, but noise as well.

I'll wrap it up here for now, soonish i'll post about commercial, thier ties to industrial and farming and about sim trading, which more or less allows you to trade for example commercial services for industrial goods.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have simulation running with most of the above working, except traffic simulator is very crude right now, where most 'walk' or drive to work, and always using the shortest route, which as we all know isn't always the best means. no mass transit exists yet, nor do i have variable speed roads and highways yet.

Comments, suggestions, and ideas are welcome, furthermore if i havn't given enuff clarification on some area let me know and i'll do my best to expand upon it.

[NCGAIO 562]

Amazing...I eagerly wait for the rest.

[Cire360 6]

And now commercial:

Commercial zoning like residential will allow the user to select the type by clicking on a zone once its laid down, which will change from $ to $$ to $$$, right clicking on the zone will change from CO (Commercial office to Commercial Service)

Commercial Services need to have a number of items meet before they will develop and grow. Water, and power being primary, they also need a workforce, the workforce will consists of number of workers depending on the type of wealth level the zone has been created for. However most commercial will employ a number of each type of residential wealth level. Commercial services, provide goods to residential, these come primarily from industrial, but also can be acquired from trade( more on this later).

Commercial offices run industrial, and provide key commercial office to the public, such as lawyers, doctor offices, ect. A city will need to meet commercial office demands, which will grow based on residential, commercial services and industrial sizes. There are many high paying wealth jobs located in this sector.

Commercial services is influenced by high traffic areas, they prefer high volume areas, which depending on the wealth level is relatively pollution clear, as well as good police and fire coverage. Commercial is also influenced by landmarks, and also trucking distance from industrial or trade centers.

A note about police and fire coverage:

clicking on a police or fire station now shows three distinct rings that encircle the station in question, The first inner circle is green, and represents maximum response time and effectiveness. The next color past the green is yellow and is known as a medium response time and effectiveness. The final circle is red in color and represents its maximum range, where response and effectiveness is at its lowest. Alerts that happen within the green zone means that response is quick arriving moments after an incident occurs, within the yellow means some 10 to 15 mins may have passed before the response time arrives, and within the red is 20+ mins before they can arrive.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been working most of the day on improving the traffic simulator and i'm happy to announce that i now have variable speed roads, and sims are now a bit more intelligent on picking 'the faster' route. I'm thinking of adding in 'speed limits' so that users might set thier own speed limits on any roads they so choose.

I've also added accidents like we have now, but an accident now has various effects, depending on the speed of the road, a high speed accident will back traffic for 2 hours, where as a minor bumper will effect traffic by 15m. Its not much but its a start, i'm hoping tomorrow to begin basic simulation routines for traffic hubs or as you guys call them transits.

Tomorrow i'll also finish up with industrial, farming and thier ties as well as discussing how trade system works. after that as much input as people would like to give would be greatly appreciated.

[jdenm8 362]

I have a recommendation on the Water that I'd like to give now, before I forget.

In a lot of places around where I live, there is nothing of what's called "Town Water", basically what in the game would be a water supply that the player builds.

These are predominantly Rural areas with mostly R$, R$$, CS$ and I-A development. They instead provide their own water from Rainwater or Dams on the property and SimCity 4 does actually reflect this in that none of the zones require water for Low-Density development. They do however for Medium Density (Except Industrial) and High Density. I'm not saying this because it's close to SC4, but because it's closer to reality.

  Edited July 3, 2012 by jdenm8  

[z1 566]

A note about replacing the .exe with a completely new one: There's nothing illegal about that, and there's plenty of precedent. The biggest one I can think of is Linux, which was built to look like Unix and run Unix programs. But Linux contains no Unix code, nor did it ever license anything from the owners of Unix. Linux has, of course, supplanted Unix in popularity due to its free, open-source nature.

And with the new Sim City getting ready to roll out, I can't see that EA would have any interest in pursuing this, especially since such a project would be completely legal. The revision described above is much more different from SC4 than Linux is from Unix.

[Cire360 6]

Thanks for the support guys really appreciate it.

In respects to the water issues, can you explain more in detail, as i'm confused on what you mean. Are you referring to a town reservoir by any chance? Which is more or less a water area thats somewhat restricted where cities draw thier water from?

Where I live water is pumped in from the reservoir, where it undergoes its 'treatment' and is then pumped into water towers which in turn gives us water pressure. I dunno if this is the same method used in large cities but would assume so. That said I have no real idea how I will handle water once a GUI goes into play. I can tell if water is nearby a pump, but I have no way of telling for example if the water is supposed to be a 'ocean' or river or lake per say. I will have to give it some thought.

Last night i managed to get a primitive garbage simulator in place, needs lots of work yet but at least my sims are laying waste now, get it

I've been pondering with the idea of adding a sewage simulator to the game as well, however as many users don't like laying water pipes, i'm not sure i will follow through with it yet or not, and i would also need some new lots to handle such problems, which would include several different or growable treatment plants.

In respects to the above for sewage and water pipes one user suggested that an entirely new line be created called a 'utility' line that would allow connecting up sewer, water and power lines to it, then run these lines which are underground and can be all run to where ever you need them to be. Seems like a good idea to me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow the final zone (industral)

Like sc4, industrial will encompass, food (farming), as well as dirty industrial, manufacturing, and high tech, when zoning an area the user has 30 seconds to click on the zone, doing so will place an 'F' for farming, D for dirty industrial, M for manufacturing, or H for high tech.

All industrial zones require power and water (Except farming which can produce its own water). They all require a workforce, which is typically $ level, except high tech which mostly consists of $$ or $$$ wealth sims.

Farming will be needed, and will produce food, which will be sold to consumers via commercial services, you will need to carefully balance farming in this game revision, as residential zones will require a certain amount of food.

Dirty industrial processes raw materials into materials. These are the heavy pollution hitters in your city.

The materials created by dirty industrial are then sold to manufacturing, which in turn produce consumer goods, which are sold to consumers via commercial services. Manufacturing does produce pollution but on a much smaller scale then dirty industrial.

Finally high tech produces high end goods, but requires materials from dirty industrial, and produces very little pollution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A note about pollution, they now make your sims sick, sick sims can't work, or buy goods, and will require medical attention. We are sorry to report that your city provides medicare, and you will have to pay the hospital bills for sick sims.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That in a nutshell is how i plan and somewhat already have done zoning. As one can see each type of zone relies on another.

Enter Trade:

---------------------------------------------------------------

Once a city becomes becomes big enough, it will eventually build either an airport, seaport, or rail yard, with these in play, one will have access to trading with 'SimCentral'.

These allow you to exchange one service for another, for example one could trade an abundance of food, or commercial office products for say materials, which would allow your city to run clean without any need of dirty industrial. However the amount of trade allowed is limited to the amount you can transport, which can be increased by upgrading airports, seaports or railyards.

And that ladies and gentlemen is how I see an improved simcity. I'm aiming for most bats and lots to be compatible, however I can't make any such guarantees yet.

As always comments and suggestions are welcome. I will try to update regularly with updates as I progress, As of right now, the simulation is console driven, requiring complex commands being entered to establish anything, however I do plan on starting the GUI sometime next week or the week after, pending simulation test results as well as real life.

[jdenm8 362]

What you described is what I meant as "Town Water". Here in Australia, it's rather common to need to collect rainwater in tanks or private reservoirs because of the lack of Town Water in rural areas.

I personally love the idea of including Sewage facilities, though they should be similar to the water system, optional unless you want to go up in density.

  Edited July 3, 2012 by jdenm8  

[Cire360 6]

This morning I started to dig a bit into examining how you guys go abouts constructing game units, and was totally amazed at the complexity, number of tools needed and what not, I figured understanding this area pretty much an open and close case, but it seems that the info i seek just seems to escape my grasps.

I can't seem to find any type of scripting component, that allow people to expand upon unit behaviors, as I see it units more or less are totally game scripted, and behave based on a property list which the creator sets upon them am I getting this right, that there is more or less no scripting involved on units, that one can't expand upon unit behaviors?

[NCGAIO 562]

The scripts in simcity make use Lua scripting language -LINK-created by P.U.C. Pontifical Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro here in Brazil and can be found in DAT_DBPF files game as LUA_file.

It would be interesting if you could provide more information about the development as the type of code used and interactions that are ready.

Many would suggest and help in this regard than those who already help opining on the structural form of development.

[Cire360 6]

I've looked through about a dozen dat files using 'Reader', and can't find any reference to LUA scripts.

I know what LUA is, where to get it and how to make C++ talk with LUA in a two directions, ie LUA calling functions in C++ and C++ calling functions within LUA, i've used it extensively before in the past, but thanks for the info anyhow. Does anyone have a list of functions that SC4 calls in LUA scripts?

I'm just curious as to what type of LUA support SC4 has. Is there a set of function callbacks that SC4 supports into LUA and visa versa. For example suppose one wanted to create a $ wealth building, and script some events, ie, if the occupants are unemployed, then during the night they would go do some crimes? Is it possible for example to create a building that generates its power during the day, but by night uses power off the grid via scripting? Is it possible to make billboards run advertisements based on any number of events, effect the music, or trigger sound effects, or query data from sc4 and act on it as the unit creator.

Thanks in advance.

[NCGAIO 562]

To help in the search for information there are only six Dats interest

Intro.dat - Graphics to boot the game

SimCity_1.dat - Main data file

SimCity_2.dat - textures

SimCity_2.dat - textures

SimCity_3.dat - textures

SimCity_4.dat - textures

SimCity_5.dat - textures

EP1.dat - Maxxis patch models and textures.

As you can see in the image of the Reader shown below are all within SimCity_1.Dat scripts and relate to the game in various ways, called for Exemplarfiles by effects directory EFFect.Dir , trigger function Cstrigger.etc ...

For complete information visit this wiki is the best way - Simswiki.SimCity_4_Modding

About RELATIONS link you will find the way scripts interact searching for the block as cited.

LUA -- 0x4A5E8EF6 - LUA - Missions, Advisors, Advice, Definitions, Tutorials and Packaging files Children LUA, dofile, Dofile commands load a file by hashed name translated to instance LTEXT, Resource Key, text@0x######## tutorial functions define an instance for a GID 0xca554b03 LTEXT LTEXT, Resource Key, text@0x######## mission/advice functions define an instance for a GI.............

  Edited July 4, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Cire360 6]

Sweet thanks alot, I had to turn on a filter to find them, after taking a peek at them I see that they are mostly related to stuff that for the most part doesn't allow unit creators any type of control or enhancement at all, most seem to be focused around u drive missions, as well as managing protestors, tutorials, and other trival things.

Thanks.

[Vahr 343]

LUA scripts are only used for those features - the core of the simulation is hardcoded, with parameters set through Exemplar files. Most of the core simulator exemplars have an IID in the very low range (0x00000000 - 0x0000000F or so).

[NCGAIO 562]

Thanks.

You're welcome. Providing information is always a pleasure.

Apparently not quite understand what you meant by the creator of units and apparently you're referring to buildings and their properties is this case we would be talking about changes in the exe. but as the issue here is a new simulator this it is not necessary.

  Edited July 4, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[BIWDC 2,296]

I think this is a great idea as it will use current resources but basically create a new

game.

[Cire360 6]

So heres what I have so far, a basic simulator that is console driven, using the rules I specified, i can use console construct commands to create a zone, as well as 'plop down' various utitlies and what not to check and make sure growth occurs, and everything seems to be functioning just fine.

That said however there is no 'GUI' the map pretty much is a construct of nothing but a few pointers to various classes of zones, and afew plop ables including most utlitty lines and a few different types of roads, the simulation is running just fine with growth occuring in all zones 'when' it should, garbage simulation also seems to be functioning well.

Now its time to begin planing for the next stage to actually implement the background to which we construct everything on, otherwize known as the region map, or land.

Like usual we need to take this up a notch, I want to add support for creating different type of regions 'desert, green, plains, and northern. But I also want the map creator to be able to specifiy types of weather, and how often they should change, ie fog, rain, snow, and sunny. This should allow map creators for example to set maps that are based near water, to be foggy first thing in the morning, breaking into sunny by midmorning, ect.

Ideas?

[Cire360 6]

The format of the map I finished last night, it will be based off a greyscale image, which is more or less a height-map, white (255) being the highest point, and black being perhaps 25 feet below sea level, giving maps a high different of something like 200 feet, which seems reasonable. This allows slopes of 1 foot, which should be subtle enough. Each pixel in the height-map will be 1 tile on the map, the size of the map again is limited only by the speed, and memory of a users computer. I'm going to include 4 different types of textures for different types of maps including, desert, green, rocky, and northern, additional textures for different types of maps could be added at any given time.

The 3 weather effects i've set upon right now include, fog, rain and snow, and sunny (or moon). and the map in question will allow control over the weather types based on the season, and type of map as well as the frequency of weather effects, i've begun work on a format, as well as the actual map creator. The map will probably consist of a texture, height map and lua script, all compressed with some algorithm for high speed extraction.

[Cire360 6]

Hi guys still madly working on it, and have come along ways since my last post. I've been tied up creating DBPF source code to enable the game to pull some resources. I was rather shocked that this type of code wasn't created and publicly released for any tool enhancements, and extensions that might be needed. Even more shocked was the amount of digging I had to do to actually find any relevant data to begin constructing such a code. Bit by bit I managed to finally construct it however, and am at the final stages, which is decompressing any compressed files when needed.

Probably the biggest development so far since I last posted is lane technology. With the game this is all we will need to handle all roads, avenues, highways, ect.

You need to think of a lane as '1/2' of a one way road, or for those who have used RHW, think of it as the 'MIS' type of road, where it supports only 1 car wide, and traveling in only 1 direction. The road system starts with just this one type of lane, and a new tool for road construction called 'the docker'. It will work like this.

Select the lane from the roads menu, drag it out, you now have a 1 way 1 lane road, drag another lane beside it the opposite direction, you now have 2 tiles of lanes, 1 running one way, the other running the other way, using the 'doc' tool hover it over the lane until it points to the other lane and press it to doc the two lanes together. You now have a road. Right click on this road, and you can select different textures, like dirt, asphalt, or concrete, you can set the speed limit cars can travel on it, and so on. You can also right click on the road and click 'add template' to roads menu, doing so and going to the roads menu you will now see your new road that you designed, and can select it and use it at anytime you wish to create your newly styled road.

Some examples, running 2 lanes side by side, in the same direction, leave a space, run 2 lanes the opposite way doced == avenue. being 3 tiles, When you doc, 2 lanes using 2 tiles becomes 1 tile of 2 lanes. 2 lanes ran same way doced becomes a 1 way road. 3 lanes ran 1 way, 1 space, 3 lanes other way, becomes a 3 lane avenue using 5 tiles, 4 lanes ran same way, space, 4 lanes opposite gives a 4 lane avenue. using 5 tiles.

Its alittle hard to explain, but very easy to work with, allows creating some very detailed road types. Eventually props will be added allowing you to customize curbs, sidewalks, and inner mediums where applicable.

Later once the project gets more further in, i'll be adding some new lanes, such as bike lanes, truck lanes, turning lanes, ect, The beauty of this is because everything uses 1 type of road, i can add some very complex rules program wize and make these lanes do alot, including curvy, sloping and more, it should be possible to get roads to be 3 tiers high, so highway over highway, over avenue if wanted.

There is only 1 downside to this system, and that's once you doc, its finalized and can't be d-doced.

I'll try to keep ya all up to date a bit more in the future, again apologizes for keep yas in the dark.

[SimCity4IE 203]

This looks really interesting, I can't wait to see more development of this.

[NCGAIO 562]

UNBELIEVABLE .... in the purest sense of the word!

[LivingInThePast 364]

It looks really cool, but it is "doc" and "d-doced"?

[Bipin 3,403]

This is looking pretty neat! Will this be more of an adaption to SC4, where we can use content already genreated in/for SC4, or will it be a completely new game deviated from it's base, SC4, and will be largely incompatible?

[FrankU 358]

Hi Cire360 it's pity the SC4D people locked your topics, althoug I can see their point. It's no fun to risk EA trouble.

Anyway Dirk apparently sees it differently.

I am of course as curious as anyone on this site of what is becoming of you project. It would be great to have a good simulator, working with all SC4 content, but with a quicker, more elegant and versatile game behind it.

If I can contribute in some way I'd like to do that.

[Cire360 6]

Well truth is for the last few weeks i haven't touched the source code, and was going to give the project up, I forwarded what i had to another member in the community, whom says he could find a coder to take over.

This is not my first time go at a rewrite. I've been involved with a TA (Total Annihilation) rewrite, produced by Cavedog, now owned by 'Atari', as well as a starcraft rewrite, and a homeworld rewrite.

If a company felt the need for legal action they sure has hell aren't going to target the 'site' where the discussion is taking place, targeting innocence is a great way to get the press involved and wrap a company in a nightmare of bad publicity. As well as a counter suit by host(s). As this is not my first run at doing this I know what I can and can't get away with, and i defiantly don't walk the thin line.

If people think EA is aggressive, ATARI is much more so, while working on TA3D, we were threatened by ATARI, however once they found out that we were not distributing any published 'ATARI' content, we got an 'apology', as well as their blessing with our project. Most company aren't so much interested in you using their 'format' but more so packing and releasing content that they have published, effectively allowing users who don't own the game to play a 'derived' version of the game. As well as monetary gain, and or attempting to 'trademark' properties owned by such a company.

Relic entertainment on the other hand (homeworld), literately gave us 95% of the source code, only denying us access to libs that they had to license. Relic has to be one of the best company's out there and I have nothing but the highest respect for these guys.

Anyhow I may continue on the project but gonna take some time to reflect... For now I must pack, headed to japan in a few hours for a pleasure trip.

See y'all when I get back.

  Edited July 22, 2012 by CaptCity  
Minor edit of certain comments.

[FrankU 358]

Maybe the best option is to discuss this with the SC4D staff in a new thread concerning the legal risks. I can imagine they are amateurs in the good way: they love SC4 and of course they love SC4D. So they probably are very cautious in risking their site. And in RL they do several useful things but probably not legal stuff concerning computer games. So they might be more cautious than necessary.

I am sure they would be happy with a game that uses SC4 content, but does not have the SC4 restrictions.

But that all is my guess. I am not a member of the staff and hardly know them.I am just one of the many users of the site.

And it is definitely not in my interest to have a fight over SC4 and SC4Devotion.

And finally: I wish you all the good with your project. I am very curious what is coming out of it and if possible I'd like to be of some kind of help.

[MTT9 187]

i have to second FrankU's comment. Is better not to rush to give up and talk with SC4D staff. Also, please send the files to a couple of people so that your progress isn't lost if real life gets in the way. I hate it when a great project is lost because of someones hiatus...

Hope you keep it up, sounds like a great project in the right direction

Matt