Occupance almost double Capacity, can't grow anything!

[mr woof 4]

Ok I have a weird problem going on. I had a couple small cities (25-50k) in a region from a fresh game install. I downloaded a bunch of plugins (buildings, mods, etc). Notably among these, NAM, Industry Doubler, Commercial Doubler, and the RCI Query thing. I tried building a new city and QUICKLY ran into a problem.

I built zones and services like normal. My population jumped to around 900, and my industry/commercial zones would hardly build at all. And then when I query'd a commercial building, it said something to the effect of:

Citywide Commercial Capacity: 250

Citywide Commercial Occupance: 500

The exact numbers are a bit off, but it was always showing that I was about double-packed than I really was. And worse still, my very few residential zones kept clammoring that they had no jobs. They said commute time was LONG (even when located only 20 tiles away, in a tiny city with no traffic). If I built more Com/Ind, the zones wouldn't develop. If I built more Residential, the zones would develop but then scream about no Jobs. The CAP for Com/Ind was always like 0-2%, so I know that wasn't the issue.

I've tried playing without some of the plugins trying to figure out what might have gone wrong, but so far I can't pinpoint the trouble. Right now, my biggest city that I loaded up shot from 45000 pop to about 70000 pop (without me building any new zones... just letting it run and adding a few parks/services). Now I've got Res buildings filled with 2k people a pop screaming they don't have any jobs. Now it says that Regionwide Occupance for commercial exceeds my regionwide capacity by 15k (again, all without building anything new). Somehow, my residents are happy to move in but I seem to need way more jobs than exist, but I don't understand how this has happened. Demand and Cap aren't the issue (not directly anyway). I'm about to reinstall the whole game and delete my plugin folder...

Could this have something to do with the Com/Ind doubler plugins? I thought all they did was allow more jobs to exist in a single building (thus ultimately needing less zones). But this still doesn't explain how I'm double my capacity when I'm at 1% total capacity and demand is through the roof AND my residents are wanting to move in jobless... any ideas anyone? :-(

[zahrul3 472]

Its the doublers, basically it should increase the amount of Sims able to work in offices and shops. I'd suggest not downloading these types of mods(or cheats), since they bug the game, especially those made before BSC existed(pre-2006). I stopped using demand mods since I found out, it created an imbalanced job-wealth ratio, creating an influx of unoccupied homes being built.

Basically, buildings that have commuter zots right after they are built are never occupied, thus the zots and stuff. Because the doublers increase the numbers, the game reads the higher number as the one fulfilling the demand, so doublers are the one behind the low IND/C demand.

So... JUST DELETE THE MODS only. No need to reinstall(same problem would persist if you have the same mods)

[mr woof 4]

Thank you so much for the fast reply. I tried playing without them and sure enough, that was the problem. Too bad, because I really liked the idea of "this building holds more but doesn't screw up the game". Cep't, like you said, it does screw it up. Everything is fixed now though, thank you!

Edit: Spoke too soon. Started a whole new region (with those mods removed) and still encountering the problem. With a single commercial zone tile placed, it says I've got a citywide occupancy of 72 and a capacity of 14. Adding more COM zones grows nothing, adding more RES zones grows the commercial zones (but increases the occupancy by double the capacity at a steady linked rate). I'm starting to move the plugins one at a time to see if I can find the criminal. I'm wondering if some file got corrupted somehow or something...

Update: Its pretty bad now. I've removed all the plugins and reinstalled the game. Now its just as bad as ever. I put back in ONLY the query mod and started a new region/new city and just threw in some stuff. COM occupancy stays double the capacity and res are coming in jobless.

I deleted all the game files (except for the ones left from the uninstall in the my doc\simcity 4, not counting plugins). Im going crazy since the game is borked now.

  Edited May 30, 2012 by mr woof  

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Are you sure you removed any custom stuff from both plugins folders?

In any case, those doubler/quadrupler mods can be used without problems, but they shouldn't be added to a region in progress. If you do so, you should pause the game before adding the mod and bulldoze enough buildings to compensate for the change before you un-pause the game.

For example, if you add the industry quadrupler, you should try to remove 3/4 of your industrial jobs by bulldozing enough buildings. The remaining 1/4 will then be quadrupled as the mod comes into effect, and you'll end up with roughly the same amount of industrial jobs as before, only spread over far fewer buildings. The game will take some SimMonths to re-calculate commutes etc., of course. It may be advisable to go so far as to de-zone the freed up zones to prevent too speedy growth. Better get the city balanced first and then expand further.

If you don't compensate, you'll suddenly have n times the job offer, which will trigger huge residential demands and throw your city out of balance.

I play with the industrial jobs quadrupler constantly, and I haven't experienced the slightest problems, except for the first time when I added it to a running region and forgot to bulldoze before.

[Cob92 360]

Try getting rid of the query mod. Personally, I've never heard of it, but if it's the only thing installed when you're having a problem, then chances are that the mod is the source of your problem.

[mr woof 4]

Thanks for all the replies. I still haven't gotten it working right. I've taken away ever mod (even the query mod and then just observe growth results). I end up with a city of population 20k, and only have about a dozen commercial tiles develop into low grade anything (regardless of value/services/etc). This is in a new city in a new region with zero mods after a fresh install. It will say that I'm at 900 city occupance and 5.3k regional occupance. When I goto region view, it'll show me some 20k Residents, with 900 com jobs and about 4k industrial jobs. And everyone else unemployed. I've all but given up that I can't play this game anymore. :-(

[ArchangelMichael 51]

Welcome to Simtropolis, mr woof.

I'm sorry to hear that you're having such trouble, but I can assure you it is being caused by neither the jobs doubler mods nor the query mod. As mentioned by T Wrecks, the jobs doublers (I don't think the quadrupler is available anymore) can be used safely in an existing city as long as you are willing to compensate for the increases by growing more residential zones or by bulldozing existing workplaces. Also, you've discovered through your own experimentation that the problem occurs even without the mods in use.

The has been around for quite some time and there have been no issues or bugs reported. In the comments/reviews section on the download page, there is a post by Neroden describing a situation similar to yours: "Odd. My 'Commercial Capacity' is coming in *lower* than my 'Commercial Occupance.' And the 'Capacity' is what's listed as the commercial population in the region screen."

Equinox's response: "I'm not actually entirely sure what the capacity versus the occupance is... the game is kinda flimsy about deciding what value's what. I think I might remove one of them in a future version."

But no further versions or updates of the mod appeared. Research to understand the game's demand drives, however, churned forward with notable progress by RippleJet. This is where most experienced players would expect me to direct you to the Census Repository Facility -- and I will, shortly -- but first, let's see if we can pin down whatever issues may be at work here that are causing your cities to sputter out. We'll start with the basics:

If you have a multi-core processor, edit the game's shortcut so that the SimCity 4.exe process only uses one core.

Adjust your video card settings to turn off all 3-D acceleration for SimCity 4 (the game doesn't support 3-D). If SC4 doesn't like your video card, adjust the in-game video settings to use software rendering instead of hardware rendering.

You have the NAM, so I'll assume you have either Rush Hour or Deluxe edition, but are you running the latest version? If you are playing on a downloaded version (e.g., from Steam), SimCity 4.exe should be on version 1.1.641.0, and it comes already fully patched. The CD version will need some patches if you are on a version lower than 1.1.640.0. If so, post the version you are running and I will direct you to the appropriate downloads.

Next, check local desirability in your commercial areas. Do your Sims want to work at these locations? Some poorly modded custom building may be spewing ridiculous amounts of pollution, especially garbage (the Maxis Plugin Manager is notorious for causing this). Make sure crime is well-controlled, too.

This problem is happening when your cities are fairly young, but for other forum members reading this topic who may be experiencing similar issues in older cities, remember that your Sims' age, education, and health levels (which usually take a while to develop) influence what workplaces will grow and whether the residents are able to be employed there. When they get old and retire, expect a depression (the average income graph will plummet and workplaces will abandon). Just keep waiting for the seniors to "expire" and the younger Sims to grow up and get educated. More details are available about wealth, education, and health levels in the Workforce and Occupation Demands link below.

Commute time is also important. This becomes a very serious issue if you have your workplaces located along avenues that lead to neighbor connections but you have few or no streets crossing the avenues. I remember this was a problem for someone a couple years ago. He had an avenue heading south to a neighbor connection, and the avenue had no other streets or roads connected to it (or those that were connected did not pass through both lanes of the avenue). Along this avenue were most of his commercial zones. The zones developed, but the Sims wouldn't take jobs there because they can't drive across the median to turn north and go back home. Residents are not permitted by the simulator to work at an in-town location from which they cannot return home at the end of the workday. Instead, they'll just exit the city via the neighbor connection to look for jobs there, and the simulator assumes that they'll be able to get home from the neighbor city. A Sim who leaves town to arrive at his job always has a commute trip that shows as "long" even if he lives on the very edge of the city right next to the neighbor connection he uses to leave for work. So, always make sure you drag a street across your avenues every four to six tiles to shorten in-town commute times and to allow Sims to get to and from work. If you already do this, or if you are using mostly roads, then this is not an issue.

If your game is up-to-date, local desirability is good, EQ and HQ match the available jobs, commute time is short, and everyone can get home at night, but the problem persists, the only thing left to do now is register for the SC4 Devotion forums, then register for their Lot Exchange (a.k.a., the LEX). The registrations are separate, but you can sign up with the same login credentials for both, if you wish (I recommend doing so if you use the password manager in your browser -- it typically only saves one username & password per domain name). Then download the Census Repository (as well as its dependencies, especially BSC Essentials) and plop the smaller "Vault" version in one of your cities (the large version is a conditional reward building, but the vault is always available... all we want here is the query window, which is the same for both). Run the simulator for a couple months or so, then query the Census Repository. Take a jpeg screenshot of the window that appears and upload it to an image host. As for capturing the image, PicPick is lightweight, easy to use, and comes with an image editor, but Gadwin PrintScreen has more features. Adjust the options of whatever you use so that the program captures the full screen image. Both will save images in .jpg format to a target folder, numbering them incrementally with a custom file name, and Gadwin can automatically re-size them. For those who take multiple, successive screenshots, this is far more streamlined than the clunky method of hitting <PrtScr>, minimizing SC4, pasting a bitmap into MS Paint, saving it as a jpeg, and then doing the same routine over and over. Best of all, both programs are freeware! You can then here in your thread and someone may be able to help you, but if I were experiencing this myself I would also start a topic at the SC4D Technical Help Requests board or post the pic and a description of the problem in the Census Repository Support and Discussion thread and hopefully RippleJet will be able to sort this out.

For some informative reading, check out Workforce and Occupation Demands and Demand Simulator: Demand, Supply and CAPs.

Obviously, your game shouldn't be doing this, and there has to be a reason. I hope you can find it and solve the problem!

  Edited May 31, 2012 by ArchangelMichael  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Oh, Mr. Woof! Persevere!

This is not an instant results game.

Have a look at this tutorial and be aware that I have no problems with custom content.

I don't understand what occupance is, but it is something coughed up from the game stats by Equinox trying to be helpful. I use that mod, but I can't say I really understand it.

The secret of this game is to start slowly in Turtle mode, and to be not impatient. There are hundreds if not thousands of variables in this game and after playing for 10 years I assure you there is always something new.

This game is a leisure time activity, and great satisfaction can be had by simply taking it easy, and not trying to build downtown Hong Kong in one swoul foop. My first city took me several months to complete along with the ancillary cities to complete the picture. Now I play regionally, and cities are started, gotten to profit, and I move on with neighbor connections flying. One of my regions now has a community or more on each tile, and I am chasing the transportation net to make it run smoothly. I spent all of yesterday fixing a hot commuter line that showed up in one tile. The fix involved about five others.

Don't expect to get very far with any one session. If you are feeling frustrated hit F12 and save it for another day. Go outside and play. Good doggy. (pet, pet).

[mr woof 4]

Ok so first I want to thank everyone for their super helpful, detailed responses. I finally think I figured out what was going on, and it was a bit of everything converging into one mess. Refer to the pictures as you read this.

It all started with the commercial doubler mod. Inside its got some 2x/3x/4x files and you pick the ones you want. It even specifically warns in the readme not to use more than one #x at the same time. So like a dummy I had unzipped everything (all at once) into my plugins. That didn't go well, and was screwing up my commercial zones.

This prompted me to download the RCI Query mod to figure out what was going on. I started noticing that my commercial occupance was almost always double that of the capacity displayed. Growth wasn't going well so I started doing new regions and cities no effect. I finally reinstalled the whole game and started putting back in a few plugins at a time. It was then that I noticed I had been using multiple commercial multipliers, so I stopped with those thinking that my problem would be fixed.

Now I have a blank new region with a blank new city and no plugins except for the RCI Query. I slap down a few zones of large size, throw in a few amenities, and fast forward only to find horrible commercial growth and the query still showing more occupance than capacity. No clue why. The forum posts here lead me to grabbing the Census plugin. Reading the census files and the posts here again, it suddenly all came together.

All explained: I had bought Sim City 4 years ago but only recently got back into it after watching a Let's Play series on youtube. There I would see a guy build up his city and think to myself "yeah I want to do that too". He started a new city at one point and zoned high density zones, all the super sweet services, hit fast forward, and up sprang a beautiful skyscraper city. I was expecting the same thing in my cities, but as you probably already are saying to yourself, you can't do that in a brand new region (I had forgotten this). Coupled with my strange Com occupance "bug", I saw in the region screen that my city population was much greater than my jobs worked. I was convinced something must be wrong because, if I have 30k population, why then, surely I must have 30k combined com/ind workers too! I'd seen other cities in those let's play videos have cities with equal Pop/Job numbers so why not mine? Of course, region-wide you can make cities like this, but it isn't going to happen on a blank region with your first city.

Basically, everything I was experiencing was a strange combo of events and bad timing and lack of gameplay knowledge that led me to believe I was under some kind of curse with my game. Fortunately for me, the posters here (especially Nonny Moose / Archangel Micheal) cleared things up for me with their super insightful and patient posts. Everything is working fine now and I'm more educated about the game. Primary lesson learned is that you can't just power-play your city to downtown Hong Kong in 20 minutes.

  Edited June 4, 2012 by mr woof  

[ArchangelMichael 51]

I'm glad you got things worked out, mr woof! All that I know, I've learned from others. I'm glad I could pass it on to you in a helpful manner.

I saw in the region screen that my city population was much greater than my jobs worked. I was convinced something must be wrong because, if I have 30k population, why then, surely I must have 30k combined com/ind workers too! I'd seen other cities in those let's play videos have cities with equal Pop/Job numbers so why not mine?

Well, now you know that this is normal for standalone cities, but let's touch on the "Why?" so others can understand, too. Everyone interested in this topic should read study RippleJet's thread about the Demand Simulator carefully (you must log in to SC4Devotion.com forums to see it), including the replies where he gets a little more in-depth while responding to questions and some neat flow charts are posted (created by another user). The number of Sims in a city with no neighbor connections -- especially a new one, as you mentioned -- will never be equal to the number of jobs filled (or offered) in that city. Little Sim kids and retired Sims don't work; and stupid, unhealthy Sims are not employable except in Agriculture, Dirty Industry, and CS§. The desirability of residential areas will determine how many Sims are willing to live there, and the desirability of commercial and industrial zones will determine not only whether they develop, but also how many Sims are willing to work there. As such, only a certain percentage (about 40-60%) of a given population will actually be employed.

Per RippleJet:

Each residential building in the saved game contains the maximum capacity, the actual capacity and the workforce (through the HQ).

Let's take an example:

1. Let's assume a R$$ building with a maximum capacity of 100.

2. Let's assume the desirability is 90% of the maximum, which would put the actual capacity at 90.

3. The workforce is a percentage of the actual capacity... all in accordance with two properties in the Residential Simulator;

Health Quotient to Life Expectancy Curve and Life Expectancy to Workforce % Curve:

If HQ is 0, then the workforce is 40% of the residential capacity.

If HQ is 200, then the workforce is 60% of the residential capacity.

In addition to this, the EQ is checked, and thus the workforce (which is of a certain wealth $, $$ or $$$) for each building is further categorized into one of 4 EQ levels.

All these 12 workforce classes (3 wealths and 4 EQ levels) are summed locally and regionally.

Based on them, the Workforce Drives now set the Drives (demands) for different kinds of RCI jobs.

The cities you saw in the "Let's Play..." videos, as you correctly surmised, had equal numbers of residents and jobs because those cities' development history occurred in response to regional demand (or possibly as a result of a demand mod). If the number of jobs available in a city exceeds the number of employable residents, you'll have commuters entering via neighbor connections to work in your city and high residential demand (remember that residential demand also arises from amenities, especially the large plaza), plus some commercial and industrial zones abandoning due to low C & I demand. If the workforce in a city too far exceeds the number of jobs offered by employers in that city, they will create high demand for C & I zones, but if no such development occurs, they will either commute to jobs out of town or abandon their homes. This happens quite often with high-wealth residents because only a small percentage of jobs are available to them.

For those who are interested in deciphering Equinox's cryptic labels for the data provided by his RCI Query mod, the same statistics reported on the RCI query can also be seen in mr woof's attached picture of the Census Repository query (hereafter, CR query). Remember that you can hover the cursor over the words in the CR query in-game to get tooltips that tell you what each statistic means to you as the mayor of your city. Comparing the two posted query pictures (the Ajjanagadde query and the CR query) reveals that "Citywide Commercial Capacity" (43,283) represents the number of commercial jobs available in the city, and "Citywide Commercial Occupance" (47,655) is equal to the residential workforce -- that is, Sims in the city who are able to be employed and are demanding an occupation (a career, vocation, or profession -- and not necessarily a commercial one). It does not indicate how many commercial jobs are actually occupied by those Sims, as some may not be fit for the positions being offered (or vice-versa: the jobs may not be suitable to some of the Sims), and some may be working out of town, at a civic facility, or at a factory.

In any city, adding up the commercial and industrial capacities reported in the RCI query will give you the residential drives (or "census drives") which is residential demand generated by employers seeking Sims who want to work for them (Simployees?). See the disclaimer in the header of the CR query if you're wondering why the math here does not always come out precisely correct. The number of vacant jobs in a city is the difference between the census drives and the workforce [(Commercial Capacity + Industrial Jobs) - Workforce = Vacant Jobs]. If the workforce (number of employable Sims) is greater than the census drives (total number of jobs offered), the vacant jobs will be a negative number, and you will have unemployed Sims, as in real life. These Sims will either commute out of town or abandon unless the city grows more workplaces. The commercial and industrial drives (or "workforce drives") reported in the CR query are the commercial and industrial demand generated by a city's populace based on their education & wealth levels and the percent chance that they would take a job at a specific place of employment if the job is available. These numbers will add up to a total greater than the workforce because each employable Sim is willing to work at more than one type of job.

All of this information can help guide Sim mayors in planning the development track for each of their cities and regions. Growth should only stagnate in old, well-developed cities filled with senior Sims. You can wait for the cycle of Sim life to reset, unleash a disaster in the residential area (or just the bulldozer) so that young Sims rebuild, or simply consider that city "complete" and move on throughout your region, building and building until the entire map is filled with old Sim farts!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Anchors aweigh, Mr. Woof. Glad you got going well. This addictive hobby will get you and you can look forward to years of fun, not necessarily consecutive. Whenever you feel the need for a bout of vicarious problem solving, go at it. The basic game algorithms are fairly simple, but then so are the rules of Go and Chess.

Millions and millions of results leading to more millions of problems over the years. Keeps the mind active.