Cashless society closer then we think?

[Easy Bakes 253]

Sweden was the first European country to introduce bank notes in 1661. Now it's come farther than most on the path toward getting rid of them.

Swiss Miss

[rweather5 22]

Very interesting. I guess it's a sign of changing times. I wouldn't mind that, plus the US government wouldn't lose money by making pennies anymore.

[Hoipus 292]

People's want for a cashless society disturbs me. While they may have instituted tons of security measures, things can still happen and computers can glitch. What would someone do if their money just disappeared?

[Duke87 1,070]

Sci-fi has for decades been predicting the demise of cash in futuristic societies. But there are still quite a few hurdles to get over before the idea becomes realistic.

Card readers are not yet quite so cheap and ubiquitous that even that hole in the wall laundromat that barely turns a profit can afford to install them on their ancient washing machines. Or so that Mister Softee accepts credit cards. Or that guy on the street corner selling falafel. And what of the homeless people begging for change, or the mariachi band performing for it? Without cash, they're screwed.

At least in the US, you need to be 18 to have a debit card. Credit cards are only available to minors if their parents sign them onto their account and there is no means of restricting the child's spending besides taking the card away if they abuse the privilege - and the parents are footing the bill. So, currently, the only way for a minor to spend their own money is to use cash.

There is as of yet no means to electronically transmit money between two people when one is not a merchant. I own my friend $15 for bowling. Only way I can pay him is with cash or to write him a check.

It becomes much harder to teach kids to understand money and manage it responsibly if it exists only as an intangible concept rather than as a physical object.

Banks charge merchants fees for using cards, so it becomes unappealing to use them for small transactions.

And then you have the privacy concern. If I want to make a purchase anonymously without my bank tracking it I should have the option of doing so.

I do agree that we need to get rid of pennies, though. Unfortunately that is no more likely to happen than getting rid of cash totally.

[Jazzmaster 716]

Great points as always Duke, but I guess I should point out that I was hardly sixteen years of age when I got my first debit card three years ago.

[beebs 129]

Sci-fi has for decades been predicting the demise of cash in futuristic societies. But there are still quite a few hurdles to get over before the idea becomes realistic.

Card readers are not yet quite so cheap and ubiquitous that even that hole in the wall laundromat that barely turns a profit can afford to install them on their ancient washing machines. Or so that Mister Softee accepts credit cards. Or that guy on the street corner selling falafel. And what of the homeless people begging for change, or the mariachi band performing for it? Without cash, they're screwed.

We're a ways away from full adoption, but I think it's definitely coming soon, at least for retail outlets.

At least in the US, you need to be 18 to have a debit card. Credit cards are only available to minors if their parents sign them onto their account and there is no means of restricting the child's spending besides taking the card away if they abuse the privilege - and the parents are footing the bill. So, currently, the only way for a minor to spend their own money is to use cash.

Wait, a child down there can get a credit card with parents permission, but not a debit card? That seems backwards..

There is as of yet no means to electronically transmit money between two people when one is not a merchant. I own my friend $15 for bowling. Only way I can pay him is with cash or to write him a check.

Well that just depends on where you are. As I understand, debit cards aren't super huge down there.. Canada on the other hand has among the highest usage of debit cards in the world. I can do nifty things from my bank account online, such as an "Interac e-Transfer", which allows me to send money to the account of anyone banking at a Canadian institution. Assuming I have all the correct information of course.

It becomes much harder to teach kids to understand money and manage it responsibly if it exists only as an intangible concept rather than as a physical object.

Honestly, it works backwards for me.. I'm way worse with my money when I have cash. Mostly because change is AWFUL to carry around, and it generally just sits (I have a number of containers of nickels, dimes, pennies, etc.). My funds aren't artificially drained by this awkward change, and I actually feel more in control when I use debit.

Banks charge merchants fees for using cards, so it becomes unappealing to use them for small transactions.

Varies bank-to-bank, and even account-to-account. and there are technically ways around it.

And then you have the privacy concern. If I want to make a purchase anonymously without my bank tracking it I should have the option of doing so.

Doesn't concern me personally, but I suppose this is true.

As much as I like debit systems though, i do see a place for cash in the world. Duke pointed out a few examples, and it is more secure and at times, convenient. I feel that the vast majority of transactions will be done with cards very, very soon, but hard cash will always have a place in some form or another.

[hym 358]

Card readers are not yet quite so cheap and ubiquitous that even that hole in the wall laundromat that barely turns a profit can afford to install them on their ancient washing machines. Or so that Mister Softee accepts credit cards. Or that guy on the street corner selling falafel. And what of the homeless people begging for change, or the mariachi band performing for it? Without cash, they're screwed

If you're barely making money, you may not be able to afford a card reader, but they aren't that expensive either. I have a friend who can process credit cards from his phone. I think it cost him around $100 to get the account set up and the little card reader.

At least in the US, you need to be 18 to have a debit card. Credit cards are only available to minors if their parents sign them onto their account and there is no means of restricting the child's spending besides taking the card away if they abuse the privilege - and the parents are footing the bill. So, currently, the only way for a minor to spend their own money is to use cash.

Credit card companies are starting to offer usage monitoring tools for adults who have teenagers with credit cards. In some cases, it's only spending alerts. In others, it's user adjustable spending limits.

There is as of yet no means to electronically transmit money between two people when one is not a merchant. I own my friend $15 for bowling. Only way I can pay him is with cash or to write him a check.

Chase has recently introduced a service that allows you to electronically transfer funds between two individuals via text message, even if the recipient isn't a Chase customer.

It becomes much harder to teach kids to understand money and manage it responsibly if it exists only as an intangible concept rather than as a physical object.

Banks charge merchants fees for using cards, so it becomes unappealing to use them for small transactions.

And then you have the privacy concern. If I want to make a purchase anonymously without my bank tracking it I should have the option of doing so.

No disagreements here.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This is undoubtedly a trend. Banks are notoriously conservative, but seem to have embraced the concept whole heartedly. When I got my new card with a chip on it recently, it also included 'interac express' where you need only swipe your card across the face of a reader. Not very many suitable readers around as yet, but I expect this will spread. This is really for small purchases.

The rule on Interac Express is that when you have used it to pay for $200 in small items, you will be asked for your PIN. This resets the limit.

It is not that many years ago, when I was working for GE, that we installed a banking system for a large Canadian bank. It had any branch banking, but the bank was afraid to turn it on. Now, it is common. This took about thirty years to happen. Once the banks got their toes wet and found the water was warm, they dived right in.

This transformation will never be complete until the older pensioner generation and the L.O.L.s with passbooks fade away. Nor will it be permanent until the network can be totally guaranteed. One nice big magnetic pulse, and the whole monetary network is gone??

---

I can see it now:

"I asked the man how his butter was sold.

"He said one pound of butter for two pounds of gold."

From the song "So Long, It's Been Good to Know Ya" sung by many folk and western singers.

Fear not. Specie we will always have. How we barter with it is another matter. Paper money will be antiques.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Sci-fi has for decades been predicting the demise of cash in futuristic societies. But there are still quite a few hurdles to get over before the idea becomes realistic.

Card readers are not yet quite so cheap and ubiquitous that even that hole in the wall laundromat that barely turns a profit can afford to install them on their ancient washing machines. Or so that Mister Softee accepts credit cards. Or that guy on the street corner selling falafel. And what of the homeless people begging for change, or the mariachi band performing for it? Without cash, they're screwed.

the credit companies also charge a fee per transaction to "process" the transaction.

if those fees don't go away the small cash run merchants will never go for it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Wait, a child down there can get a credit card with parents permission, but not a debit card? That seems backwards..

Here's the thing of it...a minor cannot have their own bank account without having it tied to the account of a parent or guardian, and an adult cannot add a minor as a signer on their account since minors, by definition, cannot legally "sign" for anything. The minor's account cannot have a debit card associated specifically with it, and the adult's direct involvement is required to put any money in it or take any money out of it.

Meanwhile, it is perfectly legal for an adult to add a minor to their credit card account. The reason this is different is because while debit card transactions are instantaneous and require "signing" (in the legal sense, not the literal sense) on the spot, credit card transactions don't have the bill come due until the end of the month and so charges made by the minor only ultimately go through with the account holder's approval (they "sign" when they pay the bill and can contest the charge if they refuse to).

So, yes, a minor can have a credit card but not a debit card... because an adult's approval is required for each transaction and that's only possible with the delay in payment associated with a credit card.

As I understand, debit cards aren't super huge down there.

That is because credit cards get you "reward points" or something similar whereas debit cards typically do not. Also, people are more comfortable using credit cards since fraud is a lot less of a headache to deal with if it occurs. All you need to do is contest a charge and the credit card company will handle the rest for you, and they eat the loss if they don't catch the guy. Meanwhile, if someone steals your identity and uses your debit card, you need to go to the police, press charges, go to court, etc. - and you eat the loss if the thief isn't caught.

And there are other technicalities. My sister had her debit card stolen a couple years ago, and they caught the thief, but nonetheless she was forced to eat the loss since the thief was only 14 and thus too young to legally be charged with a crime (you need to be 16 for that) or be held accountable for damages.

[SC4 meister 7]

I'm not going to quote and dissect. It is safe to say that I agree with most of what's been said already. What really piques my interest these days are smartphones, which Hym touched on. Not only can they be used to process "traditional" magnetic-stripe transactions, some (the Galaxy Nexus by Samsung/Google being the most well-known option) also have Near Field Communication. This technology is also what drives MasterCard's Tap 'n Go system released a few years back.

Our smartphones are able to be entire banks-in-our-hands. But I don't see cash getting entirely replaced until a solution comes out that allows for both personal and bank balances to be kept. Star Wars' credit system comes to mind. If I can process payment from you to me on my phone or other electronic device, and decide which parts to give to the bank and which parts to keep private, then I would be OK with doing away with cash. As long as NFC or any other form of electronic payment is entirely reliant upon a third-party (bank) service, it just won't work for everyone. Of course, it also can't be limited to smartphones. We'd also need low-power "credit chips;" something that allows the aforementioned homeless, street performers, and so forth to collect donations/payment without having a bank account or a $700 smartphone.

The whole NFC/smartphone thing is heating up massively right now, with Google Wallet, ISIS, and PayPal all starting up and making a big push recently. I expect that in a few years' time NFC payment will be the norm, but not to the exclusion of all forms of hard currency, or even magnetic stripes. I think that is a bit farther off, say a decade and a half to three decades--at least--to do away with magnetic stripes and hard currency by the turn of the century.

[Duke87 1,070]

Other countries have already done away with magnetic strips. Canada and Europe use chips in their credit and debit cards, which are supposedly more secure (though I don't really get how) and at the very least immune to being demagnetized.

Yet another example of how the US has an uncanny tendency to lag behind the rest of the developed world in adapting to newer technology. We have a culturally ingrained resistance to change.

[jacksunny 741]

Here in Canada, or in Alberta anyway, you can get a debit card at the age of 14. I'm not sure what the laws are for credit cards.

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Other countries have already done away with magnetic strips. Canada and Europe use chips in their credit and debit cards, which are supposedly more secure (though I don't really get how) and at the very least immune to being demagnetized.

It adds another layer of security to the transaction. You can't skim a chip card as easily as you can skim a card with a magnetic strip as the data is much better-encrypted. My card is still one with a magnetic strip, but the chip cards are being rolled out. In Australia, we're slightly behind the curve, but we're catching up to the likes of Europe and Canada when it comes to protecting data in transactions. There was an incident a couple years ago where McDonalds had to replace ALL their EFTPOS (dunno what the Canadian, European or US equivalent is - EFTPOS means "Electronic Funds Transfer [at] Point Of Sale", and is actually the trademark used in Australia) readers because someone managed to hack into the system and were able to take control of any EFTPOS machine owned by McDonalds from anywhere in the country. EFTPOS was introduced in 1988, and is the standard used across the country by B&M store merchants -- online is a bit different.

Needless to say, data encryption is far more important for card transactions and this tends to make up most of the expense in switching to such a system.

Oh, and Easy Bakes? It's Sweden, not Switzerland, might wanna change your link from "Swiss Miss".

This PDF is a press release from EFTPOS showing how cash use has declined in Australia: link

[hym 358]

Here's the thing of it...a minor cannot have their own bank account without having it tied to the account of a parent or guardian, and an adult cannot add a minor as a signer on their account since minors, by definition, cannot legally "sign" for anything. The minor's account cannot have a debit card associated specifically with it, and the adult's direct involvement is required to put any money in it or take any money out of it.

Some of this isn't completely correct. A lot of what a minor can or cannot do is dependent on the laws that the financial organization is subject to, along with the organization's own policies. Minors can have bank accounts in their own name with no adult "trustee." Most financial institutions won't offer such a product because of the risks associated with it, but it is technically available in some areas. Not all accounts for minors require the level of "adult oversight" that you described. Mine never did. I couldn't take money out without the trustee's permission, but I could add money whenever I wanted, swap money around in the account, purchase certain financial products and more, without the trustee's permission.

Also, just because a minor cannot "sign" for something doesn't mean that a minor's signature is powerless either. At 15, I was using my signature to finalize credit card payments on my mother's accounts. Under the right circumstances, a minor's signature can be legally binding.

So, yes, a minor can have a credit card but not a debit card... because an adult's approval is required for each transaction and that's only possible with the delay in payment associated with a credit card.

If a minor has the ability to authorize withdrawals on an account, the minor has the authority to carry a debit card.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Cash? What is this 'cash' you speak of?

I rarely carry cash... not even coins... (If on the rare occasion that I do have cash it will never be more than $20)

My salary is direct credited to my account.

I use an eft-pos (electronic funds transfer at point of sale) debit card or credit card... for store purchases. This is all done electronically.

I have an electronic stored value card to 'tag on' and 'tag off' the bus, which I recharge at a convenience store, using my eft-pos card. This card can also be used to make small purchases at some convenience stores and does not require a pin, you just put the card on the reader. The max value I put on this would be about $50.00

I have a stored value coffee swipe card that I use at my regular cafe... which is topped up by my eft-pos card, again usually to a max of $50.00

Today at a conference one of the speakers was selling her books afterwards... yes she took cash but she also had a mobile debit / credit card machine that works using the mobile network.

For the train, I use an old fashioned cardboard ten ride card that the conductor clicks onboard, which I purchase using my eft-pos card.

If I owe someone some money, (or more importantly if one of my sons owes me money) I or they can do an online banking electronic bank to bank 'fast-cheque'... if it is the same bank then the funds appear in their or my account immediately in real time... if it is another bank the next business day.

If I buy something on an online auction site, (like ebay) I can make an internet banking payment directly to the persons account...

All our regular bills are direct debits out of our bank account or credit card account.

So a cashless society? It is already here, and has been for quite some time.

I still do have an old fashioned cheque book, but very rarely use it, and if I do the bank charges me a $3.00 processing fee.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, being retired has some advantages in transactions. My bank allows me 40 transactions per month before it starts charging me. They do this by charging be a basic $4 per month and immediately rebate it into their "senior's considerations" account or whatever the expense is called. The contra entry shows on my account every month. By transaction they mean every tweak and twitter in the account not caused by them. They charge for deposits as well as payments. I have not paid bank service charge since I've had this account.

I issue only one cheque per month, and that is to an outfit that consistently refuses to make appropriate arrangements with the banks. They also send me a paper bill. One of these days someone who has their head on (it is a zero based budget outfit that provides services for seniors) is going to audit these idiots, and they will be forced into the modern world. The province picks up their deficit, but it is too far removed from the auditor general.

Every other bill I get, I pay by electronic transfer, and some of the smarter companies bill me using Canada Post's e-bill system. Not free, but cheaper than printing and sending out a paper bill. It arrives as a PDF. The rest send me paper, but have the appropriate banking arrangements to accept EFTs directly from my bank to theirs.

And yes, the point of sale system is called EFTPOS. The grocery store also allows EFT customers to take a little cash when paying for groceries, which allows me to obtain a little of the Queen's credit card which I use for small purchases.

I use cash because I don't want to hit a merchant with a transaction charge for items under twenty bucks or so. I have guilt feelings about that. EFT transactions are free to the card holder, but there is a charge to the merchant which I believe goes through daily. Credit card companies are especially rapacious. In my experience, some of them have charged as much as 12% on transactions. A low margin merchant can't hack this very long if he wants to stay in business. This kind of thing is inflationary too. Merchants raise prices and are forbidden by their agreements with the credit card companies to offer discounts for cash.

This is one of those situations where it has become time for the state to step in and regulate it. Both Visa and MasterCard are issuing "Debit" cards and want the same transaction rates for them as for a credit card, but they are not taking the same risk, now are they? Nobody in his right mind would take a Debit card from anyone except their bank. Debit cards issued by Canadian banks are good world wide.

For international purchases, I have a Pay Pal account. Awkward and slow sometimes, but it works, and I have had no security problem with them. I keep a small balance with that account (low risk).

And I don't have any credit cards of any kind. They are the height of stupidity. Only useful for business travelers.

  Edited March 23, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Well, being retired has some advantages in transactions. My bank allows me 40 transactions per month before it starts charging me. They do this by charging be a basic $4 per month and immediately rebate it into their "senior's considerations" account or whatever the expense is called. The contra entry shows on my account every month. By transaction they mean every tweak and twitter in the account not caused by them. They charge for deposits as well as payments. I have not paid bank service charge since I've had this account.

I issue only one cheque per month, and that is to an outfit that consistently refuses to make appropriate arrangements with the banks. They also send me a paper bill. One of these days someone who has their head on (it is a zero based budget outfit that provides services for seniors) is going to audit these idiots, and they will be forced into the modern world. The province picks up their deficit, but it is too far removed from the auditor general.

Every other bill I get, I pay by electronic transfer, and some of the smarter companies bill me using Canada Post's e-bill system. Not free, but cheaper than printing and sending out a paper bill. It arrives as a PDF. The rest send me paper, but have the appropriate banking arrangements to accept EFTs directly from my bank to theirs.

And yes, the point of sale system is called EFTPOS. The grocery store also allows EFT customers to take a little cash when paying for groceries, which allows me to obtain a little of the Queen's credit card which I use for small purchases.

I use cash because I don't want to hit a merchant with a transaction charge for items under twenty bucks or so. I have guilt feelings about that. EFT transactions are free to the card holder, but there is a charge to the merchant which I believe goes through daily. Credit card companies are especially rapacious. In my experience, some of them have charged as much as 12% on transactions. A low margin merchant can't hack this very long if he wants to stay in business. This kind of thing is inflationary too. Merchants raise prices and are forbidden by their agreements with the credit card companies to offer discounts for cash.

This is one of those situations where it has become time for the state to step in and regulate it. Both Visa and MasterCard are issuing "Debit" cards and want the same transaction rates for them as for a credit card, but they are not taking the same risk, now are they? Nobody in his right mind would take a Debit card from anyone except their bank. Debit cards issued by Canadian banks are good world wide.

For international purchases, I have a Pay Pal account. Awkward and slow sometimes, but it works, and I have had no security problem with them. I keep a small balance with that account (low risk).

And I don't have any credit cards of any kind. They are the height of stupidity. Only useful for business travelers.

Lots of people don't like electronic transfers. Banks are trying to get rid of cheques although the public outcry was so high that they have been forced to suspend their plans for a few years at least. There are charges for paying by credit/debit card but paying by cash is free. Chips in cards regularly fail and you have to sometimes clean them by rubbing on your clothing.

Having said all of that who would trust a bank, any bank?

[Meg 368]

I don't like debit cards. I don't want business establishments (grocery store, Chinese take out restaurant, drug store, etc) to have access to my bank account. And they tend to have a fee for each transaction. I'd rather put it on my credit card, avoid the fee, and keep the store away from my bank account.

Of course, the trick to that is paying off the credit card each month, which I do. If I can't pay it off, I don't buy it.

I wouldn't mind using a card that was self contained that had the amount deducted from it where I would add more money to the card as needed. The DC subway works on a system like that.

I do pay most of my bills online but banking over a cell phone . . . I'm still not convinced that is secure. I wouldn't pay bills online using a wireless internet connection. Why would I bank over a cell phone?

[hym 358]

And I don't have any credit cards of any kind. They are the height of stupidity. Only useful for business travelers.

The value of a credit card is partly determined by the terms that come with its use. Some credit cards offer grace periods that allow you to pay off the credit card without getting charged interest on it. Others offer disposable numbers for internet transactions. Most offer a level of fraud protection that you can't get with any other major form of electronic payment.

I do pay most of my bills online but banking over a cell phone . . . I'm still not convinced that is secure. I wouldn't pay bills online using a wireless internet connection. Why would I bank over a cell phone?

On some level, you can make the argument that banking over a cell phone is more secure than banking via a wired internet connection. The mechanisms for online banking are well known and understood, so if the security isn't top notch, you're a juicy target. Banking over the phone, since it is so much newer, is not as well understood. Furthermore, the encryption protocols used by Verizon (and I assume AT&T too, but I don't really know) are some of the best you can find anywhere. The FBI had an embarrassing moment a few years back where it had to ask Verizon to help set up a wiretap, because the FBI couldn't figure out how to decrypt Verizon cell traffic.

[krbe 193]

A quick guess would be that banking over the phone with a properly built app would be much more secure than with a computer; wired or wireless connection. The HTTPS protocol also works on the phone. Voice traffic over the GSM network is per default encrypted and as far as I know that also goes for the data. That means that you'll be able to instantly pay your friends the money you owe them from the bowling round, without someone being able to "listen in" on the traffic the same way if you used your computer and a public WiFi access point. If you did your banking in a dedicated app on your phone, you'd be less prone to phishing -- why would you click a link and reset the password you'd use in the app at a website? Also you would have less problems with Java and certificates with a dedicated app rather than a website.

...that being said, none of my banks seems to have come around to make Android versions of their apps, preferring the lesser used smartphone OS instead.

As for cards, I've had a debit card since I was 13 (minimum age you can get them at in Norway), tied to my own bank account and only good for purchases via online terminals (so that in theory I would never have been able to purchase on credit). It worked in almost every store I've ever been in in Norway, and the fees are pretty low. If you need a single terminal and merchant account that cost about €50 a month, and the transaction fee for domestic cards is €0.025; i.e. lower costs than cash handling.

It's the Visa / MasterCard networks that are expensive for merchants, as they take something like 2.40% of the transaction amount. In Denmark, only the largest chains accept credit cards, and if you use a foreign issued credit card you have to pay a 3.75% premium! As a student I don't get monthly payments to my account, so I have to rely on cash in smaller shops as they opt out of the Visa network that's the defacto debit card standard here.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 9, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

I have never seen any merchant charge a fee to use a debit card. In fact, gas stations which charge higher for credit than for cash often give debit the cash price. Since getting my own credit card, that is the one remaining circumstance in which I still use my debit card.

Sometimes you have to balance security with sense and practicality. I don't like having people directly debit my bank account but the electric company here charges a fee to use a credit card (since the credit card company charges them) and they also charge a fee to pay with a paper check (since it costs them more money to process it). Only way to avoid the fee is to have them directly debit your bank account. So, as much as I don't like it, that's what I have them do. I'd rather have them do that than pay an extra $2 a month.

Similarly, I pay my credit card bill by bank debit, although unlike with the utility bill it isn't automatic, I have to authorize them each time. In this case it is because my credit card is registered at my parents' address (I got it before I moved out), and so I could not necessarily respond to any paper bills they would send me via snail mail in a timely fashion. Thus, online it is.

The flipside to this is that my landlord requires that I pay rent by paper check (I suppose in theory I could also pay in cash, but that'd be a bit much). There are no electronic payment options. And it isn't just one guy, either - it's a management company that owns several buildings.

Electronic payment in general is not as prevalent in New York as it is in many other places. There are a lot of immigrants here from backwater countries who don't have bank accounts because they grew up accustomed to banks being corrupt and insecure institutions where if you dared to leave your money with them there was a good chance you'd never see it again, or have to pay a bribe to see it again. In that sort of environment, cash stuffed in the mattress actually is the safest way to store your money.

[Easy Bakes 253]

I have never seen any merchant charge a fee to use a debit card. In fact, gas stations which charge higher for credit than for cash often give debit the cash price. Since getting my own credit card, that is the one remaining circumstance in which I still use my debit card.

the cost is passed on to you if the bank they use charges them to processes the transactions for debit cards they may not charge if you just buy something but they sure will if you get cash back.

[hamsterTK 93]

There's more to this than just convenience vs. privacy

Without cash the way monetary policy works changes. It becomes plausible to have NEGATIVE federal interest rates. People can't hoard cash in a recession and this becomes a way for the government to stimulate spending.

Good idea or bad, I don't know. But who knows what governments will try to do or experiment with in the future. Or if currency that we use on a day to day basis is even backed by the government...

Some people would buy diamonds, Krugerrands, art, rare hot wheels, etc but that's a stupid idea because the price just will spike and crash and make the pawn shops and Loadsamoney4Gold places rich. "Nothink like feelingz ze Geewlld in your fingaars" informercials on the Huntin&Fishin channel at 2 AM tend to come out whenever the economy goes down and the shopping channel has its white gold citrine tears of botswana super duper mega sale when it goes up.

I have never seen any merchant charge a fee to use a debit card.

corner store by me did for the longest time. Also many businesses choose not to directly pass on this fee to the consumer, instead hiding it in their prices.

When I had a job at a fast food restaurant, if you bought food on your shift you'd write down what you got and pass that along to the manager. Then at the end of the week you'd pay all at once. Apparently this was to save a transaction fee. Really silly IMO, all that to save a few cents, but then our supervisors were a bunch of space cadets.

  Edited March 24, 2012 by hamsterTK  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

When I had a job at a fast food restaurant, if you bought food on your shift you'd write down what you got and pass that along to the manager. Then at the end of the week you'd pay all at once. Apparently this was to save a transaction fee. Really silly IMO, all that to save a few cents, but then our supervisors were a bunch of space cadets.

I have worked, after I retired, for a few months at a fast food restaurant to supplement my income until my pension was straightened out. Most fast food restaurants with the exception of McDonald's and the other really big guys, accept debit but not credit cards. Nobody should be surprised that they don't much care about the fees and look at it as a cost of doing business. The margins are astronomical on some items, and it keeps the whole place going. Soft drinks are the No. 1 money maker, fried potatoes are No. 2.

[krbe 193]

Actually, if a vendor accepts cards at all, then they always accept Visa and Mastercard. The most expensive, and less prevalent are Discover and AMEX.

Not outside the US. In Norway there is a national debit card network called bankAxept -- the cards are usually co-branded with Visa, and a merchant that accepts bankAxept cards also accept Visa cards (but until recently not MasterCards). 80% of all purchases are paid with bankAxept cards, and around 100,000 shops accept them.

In Denmark, the banks have a similar own-brand network called Dankort -- again usually co-branded with Visa, but over here merchants do not necessarily accept international cards. Not even the local transit company accept Visa or MasterCards any longer (they used to do) -- although that is less of a problem as the driver does not sell or check tickets here.

I don't understand the interest in surcharges on credit cards - it must be a non-US thing. Most vendors in the States do not charge for using a card. A few might have a minimum you have to spend, and once in a blue moon there will be a gas station that offers a lower price if you pay cash, but a higher rate if you use a card. I pay nothing extra by using a card most of the time.

Most locales have a preferred, low-cost brand, which does not incur fees for the consumer (often prohibited by law) as they're impossible not to use today (in the EU you must offer at least one free payment method if you accept cards online, for example); but it's not always too simple, especially not if you cross boundaries. The Danes won't let me have their preferred card, leaving me with a Visa debit card that neither I nor the merchants like (or my foreign cards, which they hate). The flip side is of course that they teach kids and students that they really don't need the Dankort as long as they carry a little cash in their pockets as the big shops accept their Visa and MasterCards, costing both the banks and shops money -- and driving up prices.

Also, I get free checks, and free use of them. I don't get hit with finance charges on my cc's - like Meg, I buy and pay off when I get the statement.

What are these cheques people are talking about ... (I've seen one ONCE in my 23 years.)

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

What are these cheques people are talking about ... (I've seen one ONCE in my 23 years.)

A cheque is a sight draft drawn on your bank account. It is a bill of exchange, and is treated as such in the courts if you get into a hassle with one. They are in common but diminishing use in North America. Post-dated cheques have about the same force as a promissory note.

[Duke87 1,070]

many businesses choose not to directly pass on this fee to the consumer, instead hiding it in their prices.

In which case you pay it whether you use a debit card or not, so it doesn't affect your decision.

What are these cheques people are talking about ... (I've seen one ONCE in my 23 years.)

I used to get one in the mail every week (I've since switched to direct deposit for my paycheck). I write a couple of my own every month for paying bills.

[Easy Bakes 253]

many businesses choose not to directly pass on this fee to the consumer, instead hiding it in their prices.

In which case you pay it whether you use a debit card or not, so it doesn't affect your decision.

What are these cheques people are talking about ... (I've seen one ONCE in my 23 years.)

I used to get one in the mail every week (I've since switched to direct deposit for my paycheck). I write a couple of my own every month for paying bills.

I still get a Receipt check/stub in the mail.