Sprites

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This time let us hope that the sprites will be of a more normal height. In sc4 it was necessary to have 3m doorways for the sprites to pass comfortably. Let's try to stick to standard heights for the animated people. Doorways, in North America at least, are much shorter than that.

I'd have put this in the modding discussion but most modders don't construct animations, and this is important.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I personally believe the sim height should be the base for all relative heights in the game, which seems to make sense seeing as a city is a settlement built by and for primarily people.

[Cob92 360]

That probably won't be a problem. With the move to full 3d, proper scaling all of a sudden becomes much more important to the designers (unless you make RTS games).

[lobsterav 91]

That was one thing I took note of while playing SC4. I would be looking at people walking by a car or a building, and the people would be as tall as the second story window and tower over the car. If they could scale the "spites" down it would be much appreciated.

[croxis 150]

I don't think they will be sprites (a 2d item or billboard) but a 3d object as well.

[frdrcklim 139]

i dun think animated sprites will be used here. after all, to my belief anyway, the sprites in SC4 were just to show your city was buzzing with activity, whether they're background people, people doing crime. with the new simcity, i think they'll be more willing to simulate that than just a representation. that's what tropico 3 and 4 did where everything is simulated (although they limit the population to about 1500 people for obvious reasons of course).

[§haÅ--Ñ€ §hÅŽo 370]

They've said they wanted to make the cities look alive and bustling, so they may use Sprites. It is possible.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Using the average height of a person or the in-game 'sprite' (never heard that term before...) as a point of reference for scale is not such a silly idea.

Scale should not be taken to the extreme though... if some things need to be scaled up or down slightly to fit in with the over-all game... I am not too concerned about that. Although a sim at 3 meters tall is a little silly.

[squeaky024 14]

Using the average height of a person or the in-game 'sprite' (never heard that term before...) as a point of reference for scale is not such a silly idea.

Scale should not be taken to the extreme though... if some things need to be scaled up or down slightly to fit in with the over-all game... I am not too concerned about that. Although a sim at 3 meters tall is a little silly.

As far as scaling, i must stress within reason. I don't want a 100m airport, or tiny powerplants. Things should be properly sized for the most part.

[Cob92 360]

They've said they wanted to make the cities look alive and bustling, so they may use Sprites. It is possible.

They will not. Sprites in a game that is supposed to be fully 3D will make it look tacky and cheap, especially coming from a big name developer like Maxis. People expect to have everything 3D modeled these days; if they see a sprite they will complain.

[MINIggy03 227]

I think there's some confusion as to what a "sprite" actually is,

Wiki Sprites

Simcity(5) will be modeling out cars, trains, sims, etc in 3D rather than sprites like before. Like Cobhris mentioned, It would look strange having sprites in a 3D environment when you're moving around freely (rather than in a fixed view like previous Simcity's).

Now that I'm remembering, Simcity 4 was a mixture of 3D and sprites, no? Trains, boats, planes, landscape, they were 3D right? Were cars? And then you had sprites like the Sims, trees, lots/buildings, etc.. They would make buildings in a 3D program then render them out as sprite images for their respected rotational view since it was limited by 4 angles.

In relation to the ratio of Sims vs doors/buildings, I think we'll get a much better representation in a 3D world. The video we saw on the Glass Box Engine showed cars/sims looking more to scale with their environment.

  Edited March 16, 2012 by MINIggy03  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

There are 3D sprites and ReBoot might make people think that AI NPCs are sprites.

I think that the pedestrians in the new SimCity should be the same Sims used in The Sims Complete Collection seeing as they were used in MySims and it would be easier to just copy the entire 3D artwork in that small game (everything possible in The Sims Creator) for great diversity.

[croxis 150]

There are 3D sprites and ReBoot might make people think that AI NPCs are sprites.

I think that the pedestrians in the new SimCity should be the same Sims used in The Sims Complete Collection seeing as they were used in MySims and it would be easier to just copy the entire 3D artwork in that small game (everything possible in The Sims Creator) for great diversity.

+10 points for ReBoot

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, I guess it was a worthwhile topic. I see no real problem using 3D sprites in crowd scenes. This game will have to be statistical at some points or it will never run at an acceptable speed.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that there will be a lot of "The Sims" in this game. Think of it as The Sims with more than a suburb to play in. How much detail you get with "The Sims" part might well be a parameter at the creation of a given city tile. A suburb might well be more "Simmy" and the CBD. The transitions will be interesting.

Custom content makers will need a "Sprite sheet" if they are going to include animations in part of their creations.

[croxis 150]

No. There is no such thing as a 3D sprite. A sprite is defined as a 2d/billboard object. This isn't 2002 anymore. A 3d character is not animated with a sprite sheet. They are usually animated with a bone based system and keyframes.

[Djohaal 121]

Yes but you can use several techniques to pre-bake animation and lighting on these 3d models. They get much closer to a sprite than a complete 3d charachter.

[meowza 230]

In terms of people (inc animals) as agents, I'm fine with having the Sims 2 or 3 look and scale.. As long as they are pleasing to the eye, and that they don't look like abominations when zoomed in.

If they can include the following, then much better:

1. unique faces and skin tone for each person

2. sex

3. body types that define their health

4. clothes that represent their social status or profession

5. age differences

And I think this should be a must:

Each limb can be individually affected by the physics engine. I don't want a sim to look like a solid rock when it gets thrown back by a nuclear explosion.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Each limb can be individually affected by the physics engine. I don't want a Sim to look like a solid rock when it gets thrown back by a nuclear explosion.

In a nuclear explosion, why should you care? You don't think that if there was a nuclear explosion in a 4 Km² area, there wouldn't be much left, now would there? Ever seen the pictures of Hiroshima right after the event? And that was a tiny bomb compared to what we get today.

Well designed power plants cannot explode. Some rather icky designs can melt, but you don't put big breeder reactors in a populated area, after all. Most reactors can be scrammed at the drop of a switch.

[Jahnri 21]

Thats true enough. Although a bit off topic hehe.

Pebble bed reactors more or less can't melt down. Then you have thorium reactors which the material once solidified can be handled with minimal protection.

The fact we still use the current reactor models is a bit of a joke. More of less the fault of the companies who manufacture them not wanting competition.

[meowza 230]

The italicized sentence was just a crude and fun example on how I think the sim models should behave in various situations, not just during a nuclear explosion (or the concept of an initial shockwave). It could be anything from how a dead sim should move if it's being washed up by a flash flood, if a pedestrian gets hit by a car, or if an unconscious sim is picked up by a giant sim-eating lizard... If the devs can make individual animations for specific "rag-doll" events without making the models look out of place, then that would be fine - but it would be a daunting task for them. So I think the use of the physics engine would be best at this.

Quick search sample:

OT: Experimentation and creativity. Maxis must give the player the freedom to place specific buildings anywhere, as long as it fits the terrain. Even a nuclear power plant in the middle of high density residential area, no matter how absurd that sounds.

[flowmotion 24]

The announcement trailer shows Sims walking around on top of buildings and forming street mobs - and they appear to be at the correct scale. (Admittedly the trailer was probably faked and not done in the game engine.)

However, I don't expect them to use an exact 1:1 scale - buildings will probably be oversized just to make them stand out a bit more, and empty space such as parks and lawns will be minimized. Think of something like a model railroad, where the town buildings are at scale but still compressed into a smallish place.

  Edited March 18, 2012 by flowmotion  

[Hoipus 292]

To ease the load for handling a potentially large number of sims present, perhaps the lowest possible detail "sim" could be a sprite, while as they get closer to the camera they would slowly reach higher levels of detail until they resemble sims from the sims 1 at least.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, whatever perspective techniques they invoke, there is no reason to have just one arrow in the quiver. I think with this game its going to be whatever works best. Close up interaction of Sims could most certainly be fully animated 3D figures, but let's not kill the CPU and the GPU carrying all this into the background of the frame. Remember that at any instant you are looking at a fixed frame buffer.

[meowza 230]

True, that should always be considered. The graphic's level of detail should be freely modifiable by the player on ship.

But other than the gfx that have already been mentioned, the aspects that I deem compulsory in the simulation of the people (a slight reiteration of what I've said) is that each individual should act autonomously, yet behave dynamically, reactive to player stimulus, reflective of the city's state, and are visually persistent. It should feel as if they are the reason why we're building magnificent cities, and not make the concept of building a city an end in itself.

I'd rather watch a video of fishes in a tank, rather than watch a tank without any fish.

  Edited March 19, 2012 by meowza  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

True, that should always be considered. The graphic's level of detail should be freely modifiable by the player on ship.

But other than the gfx that have already been mentioned, the aspects that I deem compulsory in the simulation of the people (a slight reiteration of what I've said) is that each individual should act autonomously, yet behave dynamically, reactive to player stimulus, reflective of the city's state, and are visually persistent. It should feel as if they are the reason why we're building magnificent cities, and not make the concept of building a city an end in itself.

I'd rather watch a video of fishes in a tank, rather than watch a tank without any fish.

Excellent points. Of course the graphics have to conform to the platform in which the program finds itself. This is one of the reasons that I really want the graphics to be driven by OpenGL. My GPU and I am sure most if not all others directly supports OpenGL. Hardly any point in not dealing with the front end of the horse, eh?