Grid secrets: a tutorial CJ

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

tchaos713, I remember that grid well. I always used to end up population-depleting (and destroying, rather than capturing) the AI cities, because they didn't fit into my grid. It also made be feel more like the evil dictator I was purporting to be.

frndofyaweh, 921,000 Sims! Looks like you are going to beat 1M in a single city (I don't count the region total, since it's not space-constrained, and since, if you really wanted to, you could clone one of your cities outright and have two of them on the same map). I have an idea for an experiment of my own, to compliment yours, but I need to wait for RLS to die down a bit before I have time to run it. Maybe I'll do it around Thanksgiving.

[MrCinatit 30]

this is a most fascinating journal and tutorial, frndofyawah. it looks as you are successfully playing the game it was originally meant to be played.

long ago when i first started playing the game, i sort of started my cities like you have - with the grid and the laid out hospitals/education/fire/police - even my bus stations. but, it was not NEARLY as successful, as i did not think out the placement of my residential/industrial/commercial. additionally, i never did play between my cities properly. the reasons why those old cities failed is quite clear now - i will give this a lot more thought when i create my next concret jungle. guess like many others, my plugins are full of so many cheats, and my cities are created more for looks, that i have forgotten how to actually play the game.

great job.

[thegrindre 28]

Well, I see things are going quit well. The 'ole' 4, 8, 16, 32, thing is comming along just fine...

Did we ever figure out excatly why all those 'roads' got so screwed up?

[Kwakelaar 92]

Me thinking you had given up on the experiment, but obviously your back.
Everything is going well with the cities.
Just out of curiosity, what is causing the difference in the use of mass transit and traffic congestion. I would have thought with your gridsystem it would be more evenly spread throughout the cities.

[Voar Tok 4]

Glad to hear that everything is going good in Waffle World.

[Compromise 1]

Yes but there are some useful pointers on how to play SimCity in here which I have noticed. That is what I was referring to so to be honest I don't really know what thegrinde is going on about.

Anyway I am glad this is still going well so keep up whatever you are teaching us.

[Voar Tok 4]

Anything new in Waffle World?  Is RLS getting to the mayor?

[thegrindre 28]

Ahh, it seems our dear moderator has missed the teachings of frndofyaweh.
Briefly, since all PCs work by bits and bytes, a perfect city could be built on this princple. Hence, this thread.

This may help;

1 byte = 8 bits,
1 kilobyte = 1,024 bytes = 8,192 bits,
1 megabyte = 1,024 kilobytes = 1,048,576 = 8,388,608 bits.

And this is what frndofyaweh is trying to share with us...

I have EDITED this post... I am so embarrased, sorry.

Thank you, nevir

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

Date: 10/23/2005 11:58:39 AM
Author: thegrindre

bit = 8 bytes, 8,192 Kilobytes, 8,388,608 Megabytes
byte = 1,024 Kilobytes, 1,048,576 Megabytes

quote>
What the...?

[nevir 0]

Date: 10/23/2005 11:58:39 AM
Author: thegrindre

bit = 8 bytes, 8,192 Kilobytes, 8,388,608 Megabytes

byte = 1,024 Kilobytes, 1,048,576 Megabytes


And this is what frndofyaweh is trying to share with us...

quote>

Except that:
1 byte = 8 bits,
1 kilobyte = 1,024 bytes = 8,192 bits,
1 megabyte = 1,024 kilobytes = 1,048,576 = 8,388,608 bits.

not the other way around.

But I agree, powers of two are quite useful when it comes to city planning, though they are only a minor part to a maximal city.

[Hordijk 18]

I hope there will soon be some updates

[Compromise 1]

Yes it looks like are dear moderator has missed somthing alougth I don't seem to be the only one.

[tungston 19]

Yes, I think my friend has lost sight of his original objective

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

Grid Secrets: A tutorial CJ

Chapter 17: Secrets and tutorials.

 

ch.17 is to address everyone just for the moment. I promise to reply to all shortly. I enjoy all the responses though! Debates are fun, wether you win or lose.

 

This CJ is more like a puzzle itself, per my many personalities. There is more here than meets the eye. I am not schizo 

 

1. Grindre is correct, but only in part. Maxis added it's own formula into the mix in SC4. They wanted to make it a bit more complex, I think. Or maybe, they had to. Maxis developers, divided every lot and object in the game, into smaller parts and also, wrote in multipliers for sizes of neighborhoods, districts, city blocks, highways, quadrants, civil coverage, etc. in otherwords: There really is a specific position on the board for every building. It is Chess. My police are spaced properly apart, not too far not too close(like Rooks). My highways would be a big tic-tac-toe board. My bus stations are a Checkers set-up. Actually, It can be metaphorically compared to many genres, but it is all of the metaphors combined, that forms the Big Picture. The Formula for all things placed. The ultimate solution. It is in the numbers.

 

2. Our goal in Waffle World is to do several things: show the Big Picture and give away all the numbers. find out what goes where and why bus stations are effective with a grid only. When I hit a million, I will post a chart of everything I did with numerical values of placement and settings.

 

3. I had to put it in Game Experiments Forum because, I had only experimented myself. I never took this theory past 250,000 sims. But I had repeated my grid to perfection at least 50 times by the time I started this CJ.

 

EDITED 4. But, by taking a large city to 250,000 sims in one quadrant; I knew before I even did this CJ that, I could get 1,000,000 sims and have no real city problems.

THESE numbers apply in some fashion to everything you place or see in SC4:    

 

Numbers are still the key here and cannot be escaped.

 

a 6x6 tile city block plus one avenue to the right and top equals 8x8 block.

 

Bus stations go to the right and top of an intersection. The arrow in your game view compass points to the right and top. To the right and top, is also a part of your in-game guide. If you follow the correct numbers; all things will fit together like one big machine. Cogs in the works, clockwork precise. subway tunnels should be to the right and top of your avenues.

 

 Watch the traffic flow in a grid city; maybe you could reverse this and place all to the left and bottom?

 

2 equals highways and aves width

3 equals city sizes and most civic lots

4 equals quads(north,east,south,west)

6 equals a city block and largest lot size( this should be the same for LOT makers) Bigger than this will begin to tax your space and effiency of use.

7 equals water treatment or some civic lots

8 full city block or stadiums

12 equals water pipes placement

16 equals bustops

24x24 equals residential neighborhood maximum efficiency size.

 

This is just a few examples above as other things fit these same numbers, in placement reach or sizes, etc.

 

 

 

I am no mathimetician, so I cannot explain it properly and am only confusing you all.

 

Keep commenting though, because I am making that chart right now that will finally clarify all things gridded. I am almost finished with my city map, I'm creating in MSpaint. Becuase my numbers are precise in game(like Grindre said) scaling it down in MSpaint was astoundingly simple and every object fits perfectly right down to the pixel!

 

 

5. Why the delay?

 

I am busy terraforming and resizing the images for ST. I try to keep all my files around 200kb and still get a good quality image to UL. Also making textures for Simmars keeps me fairly busy and RL of course.

 

Making the rivers connect. Population is still growing.

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//quick4gen1.jpg align=baseline>

 

1,535,149 Sitizens! Do you think there are 1 million in Green Griddle? soon to be revealed.....

[tungston 19]

Date: 9/11/2005 7:04:41 PM Author: Keiran Halcyon A question about your grid numbers - you claimed that higher than 6x6 and the bus system is no longer effective.  But, you only place a bus stop on evey other corner.  Have you tried increasing the grid to, say, 8x9, putting a bus stop on each corner, and having a 1x7 remaining service strip, with room for 4 4x4 buildings per grid square? Also, are you starting all your zoning at high density, skipping low and medium?

quote>

That is one of my friends delusional thoughts.  Bus usage is only dependent on the distance the sims will walk to it, stated by the makers as 8 to 10 tiles.  They also say that high wealth sims don't use buses, I can't comfirm that is correct.

[Voar Tok 4]

Date: 10/24/2005 4:50:17 PM Author: tungston

Date: 9/11/2005 7:04:41 PM Author: Keiran Halcyon A question about your grid numbers - you claimed that higher than 6x6 and the bus system is no longer effective.  But, you only place a bus stop on evey other corner.  Have you tried increasing the grid to, say, 8x9, putting a bus stop on each corner, and having a 1x7 remaining service strip, with room for 4 4x4 buildings per grid square? Also, are you starting all your zoning at high density, skipping low and medium?

quote>

That is one of my friends delusional thoughts.  Bus usage is only dependent on the distance the sims will walk to it, stated by the makers as 8 to 10 tiles.  They also say that high wealth sims don't use buses, I can't comfirm that is correct.

quote>

The high-wealth sims will use busses if you install the last edition of RalphaelNinja's radical ordinance mod.  Otherwise, all the free mocha in the world won't get them to ride.

 

Glad to hear that Waffle World is up an running.  The idea behind building according to powers of 2 was probably the first thing that I realized had been programmed into SC4 (partially because SC3K stressed grids for maximum performance).  I made some killer cities doing that (and I wish that freakin' virus hadn't come and cleaned up my hard drive).  Anyway, when I get back in the swing of things with SC4, you can be sure that there will be grids in all of the downtowns and a lot of the suburbs.

[tungston 19]

Friendofyaweh:  You have me bafflled, friend.

What are you trying to show, or prove with these numbers:

 

2x3x4x6x8x12x16..........256 notice the numbers also have a pattern:

 

  2/3/4       4/6/8     8/12/16 = 1/3, 2/3, 4/3

 

They aren't a sequence, a progression, they have no relation, no ratio.... What?

I definitely do not see a pattern.  Please explain the pattern.  What is the number 256 at the end?  You took three numbers and started doubling them, and they are supposed to equal three fractions that you doubled?

 

That's the way my exwife balanced the check book.

 

I also got lost on the powers of two

[Pachacuti 0]

This project of yours began with some extremely helpful insights into the game (for which I'm mighty thankful), but your misguided (and peculiar) philosophy has, sadly, poisoned the experiment.

 

First of all:

 

in otherwords: There really is a specific position on the board for every building. It is Chess.

 

How much chess have you played?  There is no specific position for every piece in chess.  Geniuses and supercomputers haven't found a perfect way to play.  The same is undoubtedly true for SC4, especially since, unlike chess, we gamers have the distinct pleasure of devising new rules for ourselves.  Just consider how you have used NAM off and on during this project of yours.

 

And anyway, much more importantly, you cannot win at SC4, because there is no solitary goal, like chess.  That is part of the beauty of the game, and why people with a variety of interests or motivations can enjoy it.  Instead of trying to find some beautiful golden mean or whatever in your maps, get back to using the grid to figure out the specifics of how each SC4 component functions--that's what kept me reading your CJ.

 

Secondly:

 

THESE numbers apply in some fashion to everything you place or see in SC4:   

2x3x4x6x8x12x16..........256 notice the numbers also have a pattern:

  2/3/4      4/6/8    8/12/16 = 1/3, 2/3, 4/3

 

Are you a Cabalist?  This sheds no light on how the game was constructed.

 

It's your project (and certainly the best one in simtropolis that I've read) so you can do as you please, but I personally hope that in your future posts you'll return to your previous diligent work of attempting to dissect the detailed mechanics of how individual components of the game function and how they can be optimized.  That will be of great help to the community, and will perhaps return you to the planet of sanity.

[Compromise 1]

Help maths, I understood this expirement until all these 2=3636+6x585x648/476 sort of things appeared. Its amazing how a very small comment by myself about how wre are never going to remember all this when playing SimCity 4 can set this sort of thing off.

[tungston 19]

Compromise:  I don't think you prompted my comment.  I am still waiting for my friend Friendofyaweh to prove himself right on an issue from one of our tit for tat disscusions in another thread.

It is all a friendly disagreement, anyway as far as I am concerned.

[Compromise 1]

I was just saying the facts of the situation, I don't have to prompt you in every other sentance.

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

Keiran Halcyon: Please do post your experiment. I need some backup, it seems. I agree with you. It must be space constrained to be a challenge, of sorts. Look Below and see if I made it?

 

Thanks for commenting and should I try for more sitizens?

 

Mr Cinatit: Thanks for page 5 and yes!! You got it absolutely on the nose; this is the way to solve the  scenario cities. You know, the ones that MAxis never created for SC4. hehee.

 

Glad you stopped in and commented, friend!

 

TheGrindre: Yes it sure is, bud. It almost seems toooo simple, eh? Hopefully other members will take this grid and incorporate it into higher density central districts, then lose the grid mostly, in the grand suburbia and completely in rural areas. It is just a bit too boring for many folks.

Thanks for commenting and peeking back! If I could give you a prize for guessing the answer, I would.

 

Screwed up roads was due to this: I had one city growing in a region that used the NAM plug-in. The other city was in a region, where I would remove the NAM folder and build without it. Then I imported the NAM city into the non-NAM region and game; it lost the turn lanes and intersections, as NAM had created them. It was tedious to rebuild them all, but I knew it might happen from previous mistakes, I have had.

 

Kwakelaar: I may get beat, but I never give up too easily. Which reminds me; I must get back to BATting practice. RL just gets in my way at times. Today is my first day off from work in two weeks. phew! I am soooo glad!

 

Traffic: It is actually evening out more and more, but I believe it was a bit unbalanced, due to my quick building up of the city.

 

Compromise: Welcome back, friend. Guess I should have called this  CJ Grid Secrets: an Experiment in the making? Only I cannot change its title. hmmmm. Thanks for the encouragement, you have given, Compromise!

 

Hordijk: here is the update friend! I still love your Beach houses! have you made anymore new BATs? I have been away from the STEX for a bit now.

 

Nevir: Two in my CJ is just for comparison of  grids. with a few mistakes in one city grid and a grid with many mistakes. neither city is perfectly done. I am still figuring this all out myself.

 

My tutorial map below, shows a perfect city Quad.

 

Thanks big, for visiting Waffle World!

 

Voar Tok: YOu are correct! SC3000 stressed grids as the solution and Maxis Claims in their company history file, that SC4 is stratigally the same as SC3000. The only real difference was to be eye candy and graphics.

 

Here is just one link, that hints at that very claim. read the SC4 history and the SC3000 history.

 

http://www.maxis.com/about/about_timeline2.php

 

Tungston: You are correct; those patterns do not mean squat. I will correct this below and give an explaination of my busing technique.

Thanks for touring the region, bud and many thanks for all of your help and suggestions.

I also am lost on the powers of two. I only know that, computer numbers are dependent on simulation numbers.

 

Pachacuti: Yes you are right too. I will get back to the specifics and functions now.

 

By Chess, I actually meant where the game pieces are placed at start. Rooks flank the board and are the police or protection(castle)=police. Just a metaphor and Chess has really nothing to do with the game.

 

I love Chess by the way. I have several versions of the game. Dragons, Pewter, glass, etc.

 

 

Chapter 18: A Closer Look, Part One

 

many of you know the manual states sims will only walk 8 to 10 city tiles to a bus stop.

 

This is true, but we must remember that this is measured in radius', just like all civic and utilities coverage. Since Maxis didn't give us an option to view busstop coverage in a chart; Lets take a look below at my maps and charts of what a bus stop really covers.

 

These charts were made to exact scale in MSPaint and edited in PS7.

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//tabla44rvx.jpg align=baseline>   

This shows the radius of four bus stops in a diamond pattern, that reaches 10 city tiles in radius.

 https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//QuadNW2bus.jpg align=baseline>

 

now lets look closer at the entire northwest quad, of one large 4km city. A quad is 2km by 2km or one medium city size.

 

This is a mosaic image of one quad below. Notice that my residential squares are 24, 1x3 res zones across. this makes 16 total squares of residence per neighborhood and 9 neighborhoods per quad. Each neighborhood then needs 8 commercial blocks at the least and elsewhere there will be 8 Industrial squares 6x6. 4 Highschools to service a quad. A whopping 16 hospitals? not so sure I need this many though, as per the news ticker, in my chart farther down this chapter.

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//QuadNW111.jpg align=baseline>

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//QuadNW122.jpg align=baseline>

 

Notice: Hospitals and highschools have a specific spot that covers a similar radius technique. Only in straight grid lines. These will be added one at a time as needed and never blown up or moved through the entire life of the city.

 

Notice: I force my residential traffic to slow down and speed up in a horizontal direction, causing conjestion to the left and right. I force the commercial traffic vertically, causing the conjestion from that slowdown and acceleration, to go up and down.

 

Here below, we see what I did with my extra piece of avenue: I omitted one strip of avenue both horizontally and vertically, to allow a 7x6 block line, surrounding the entire city. This gives me a place for the Water Treatmant Plant and other larger Lots. I also have 4, 7x7 squares, one in each corner(quad) of the city. ??? Maybe, something specific goes in these corners?

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//QuadNW3ave.jpg align=baseline>

 

That was just lesson one ladies and gentlemen. I will continue adding more as I make my maps, etc.

 

Now lets look at some city charts. If this grid is the ultimate design, then I must have almost no negative issues, with any aspects or charts.

 

do the people love the mayor evenly or near that in every neighborhood?

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//hut87yuu8.jpg align=baseline>

 

Yes! The Mayor is extremely popular! Adored everywhere, but not so much, near the airport to the lower right!

 

do the wealthiest Sims always want to live anywhere in my city, or at least near that?

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//hut87yuu9c.jpg align=baseline>

 

Yes! They have never stopped wanting to live in Green griddle. They all just hate that airport. Even comm hates to be near the airport proper.

 

 

Do my Sitizens enjoy a nearly perfect commute, with little or no traffic?

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//hut87yuu7.jpg align=baseline>

 

Yes! They love the Grid!

 

They love it right up to 1,009,675 Sitizens in one city!!!

 

 

There are no highways in Waffle World.

There are no trains.

There are no streets or roads or one-ways.

I have a subway, but it is not really used(experimental and not needed to reach 1 million pop).

There are very few trees in Waffle World.

I have built a near perfect city with just buses and avenues.

 

Does Waffle World get a large abandonment issue ever?

Do the sitizens have trouble finding jobs(NJZ)?

 

 

No, the sitizens almost never abandon the buildings! They rarely show a NJZ. I still have empty zones even!

 

 

Do the sitizens of Green Griddle accept their commute times?

 

 

Yes! In real world; 70 to 80 minutes is acceptable and it is utterly acceptable in SC4, if you have a proper grid.

 

 

Now, for a challenge: Can I make the mayor loved 100%?

 

 

 

Tungston/Pachacuti: you are both right, There is really no pattern at all, just different numbers for different things. You may notice however, that every chapter in my CJ, repeats the same numerals over and over. I do apologize for the confusing garbage I posted earlier and have effectively edited the pattern out.

 

What is my penalty for such bad manners? I am a bad boy.

 

these are repetive but not necessarily the only numerals:

 

2  3  4  6  8  12  16 24 ....and so on.

 

12 refers to water pipes effective reach; 6 tiles in either direction.

 

Highway off/on ramps are placed at 12 to 14 tiles apart for most effective use. Highways themselves, also seem to effect 48 city tiles in a similar fashion. I must test this further though and I do mean further apart to see if the highway effectiveness begins to dwindle past 48 tile reach. maybe someone else has experimented with this?

 

 

[tungston 19]

friendofyawehDate: 10/26/2005 3:55:36 PM 12 refers to water pipes effective reach; 6 tiles in either direction.

 

This type of error is the thing that shows the fallacy in your theory.  Where is the water pipe, add that to the equation and you get 13.  To get full coverage you need a water pipe every 13 tiles.

[davidtothej 1]

This is incredible....

a look at the true nature of sim city

 

Are you using the street-ploppable stations or the good ol packaged stations?

 

great work to hit a million, nothing ive ever done, highest i ever got was 800,000, and that was with every conceivable trasportation type possible

[Compromise 1]

Yes this CJ seems to be coming on well again. Keep it up!

[Sproxxx 0]

Love this CJ. Keep it up!

[Bones1 96]

Interesting experiment (even if it results in a horribly ugly city) to try to maximize pop.

I also think frndofyawah is trying far too hard to see number patterns in the game. There is likely optimum placement distances for certain things, but they don't all relate to multiples of the first two primes (2 and 3).

 

I think by trying to map everything to 2 and 3, he's probably missing some optimal placements.

[Dragonsbrethren 0]

This reminds me of my old SC2K days, I never finished a city (Got about 3/4 of the way done though) but I used a similar grid. I had a bad oversight though, my grids were actually 7x7 including roads, I never noticed this flaw with my plan.


Offtopic:

Sproxxx, your signature is great! Everyone, read Sproxxx's signature and try to apply it to everyday life.

[jacqulina 162]

hi there you are very welcome,i love your park and the ideas,excellent work

[thegrindre 28]

Ah, ha. I see things are still going as planned. Very good.
I'm surprised everyone doesn't see it... There are a lot of doubters out there.

I use 7 as my water pipes are layed. That's 15 across. (7 each side of center)

Don't stop now, you're doing a fine job, here.