Operation Buffalo Wing: A Blizzard of BAT

[ACEfanatic 7]

Erm... ew?

Talk about destroying the skyline...

-ACE

[Sabretooth78 808]

I don't think the rotation or height in the second rendering is correct. I do think that if it ends up getting built, it will be a great addition to the skyline, when you look at all the details. Buffalo needs it, it needs something newer than 1970 on the skyline to help begin to discard the image that it's a city in decline.

We've always prided ourselves on a diverse architectural heritage; I'm sure the "new" towers of the 60s and 70s were seen as intrusive as well.  Personally, I'd like to see a new player overtake HSBC center, which is probably the all-in-all ugliest box of a building we have.

Heck, most people hated the Empire State Building when it was built.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

The tallest of the proposed buildings looks like something I sketched up once.. Err... more like I was bored and doodled it down.

I hope the angles are incorrect, because as neat as that building is, it looks very massive from that vantage point. Nothing like that could ever be built here, as the floor-area ratio allowances and height restrictions wouldn't allow it. Consider yourselves lucky to get it no matter how it turns out!

You're right Chris, Buffalo really needs to shake off the bad image it has. Out here, we only know it from the movie Bruce Almighty, and the skyline looks pretty dated, and things look gritty. Time to shake things up! Hopefully they can refurb that awesome art-deco train station. *crosses fingers* Too bad they got rid of the old airport terminal that kinda matched it.

Well, nice to see this project going again. Hope to see some more stuff soon.

[Sabretooth78 808]

Yeah, those angles are positively wrong looking.

There are some better renderings here - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=118708&page=3

As for the skyline, I dunno, I actually like the way it looks. Unique for a US city. Though I think once a few newer structures get plopped in there, it'll definitely gain a diversity that most places don't seem to have, either.

The train station is a crying shame, but it is coming back slowly. As for the airport, you're probably alone in missing that, the whole setup was a joke. Talk about a two-terminal dinosaur. The new terminal was definitely something we got right. Too bad all the security additions have totally wrecked the "open-air" feel that it was designed to have.

[cyburbia 0]

Bumpies!

I fired up SC4 again for the first time in a while. Ifanyoje gets active making Buffalo BAts again, a few suggestions:

Local chains: Anderson's, Mighty Taco, Teds

Generic Greek restaurant

Frame houses with retail on the first floor; for example along Clinton in Kaisertown/.

Two-flats and semi-bungalows

[sblanc1087 0]

Any more progress sargeantcm on the Empire State Plaza in Albany? I know its been a long time...

[Sabretooth78 808]

Time for what has become my yearly post...    I suppose it's nobody's fault, I just haven't been able to find the time.  My goal, and I'm going to try, is to finish off the 3 major projects I have going at the moment, all of which are pretty well along:

Buffalo:

- Rand/Tishman Buildings:  50%

- Main Place Mall/Tower:  Mall 0%, Tower 80%  (debating if I even want to do the mall, I suppose I ought to)

Empire State Plaza:

- State Office Tower(s):  90%

- Egg: 10%

What bothers me is that they're all so far along.  I need to get them done.  I think what sapped me was my "mystery project", which took a boatload of time until I realized I screwed up one dimension, throwing the whole thing out of proper proportion.  Yeah, Joe SimCity Player (or anybody who has never seen the building) would probably never notice or care, but it's well documented that my standards are waaaaayyyyy too high. 

There are also a bevy of revisions I want to make to my existing models, you know, over time new sources, photos, and just experience seeing the buildings every day - you notice things which looked right with the information at the time but are in fact wrong.  As a matter of fact, there's at least one item on every building I've released thus far.

Since this is the time of year when the weather starts heading south (well, actually early fall is my favorite time of year, and I actually enjoy snow), this is the time to get cracking.  I need to adopt a schedule.  What's more, within a year or so I may very well be a homeowner, at which point that, (plus my tiny goal of creating a basement-wide model railroad kingdom) will undoubtably chew up boatloads of time.  So the time is now.

Originally posted by: cyburbia Bumpies!

I fired up SC4 again for the first time in a while. Ifanyoje gets active making Buffalo BAts again, a few suggestions:

Local chains: Anderson's, Mighty Taco, Teds

Generic Greek restaurant

Frame houses with retail on the first floor; for example along Clinton in Kaisertown/.

Two-flats and semi-bungalows

quote>

 

If Simgoober still around?  Shows you how out-of-focus I am here.  I haven't seen anything new from him lately.  He'd be the one to tackle the fast food joints and restaurants.  He's excellent at the suburban stuff.  As for houses, ehhh.  I wish I could but I draw more satisfaction out of the bigger models.

Originally posted by: sblanc1087 Any more progress sargeantcm on the Empire State Plaza in Albany? I know its been a long time...quote>

 

As I stated above...  The State Office Tower (well, 4 nearly identical) is virtually finished with the exception of the extreme base and the textures.  If I got down to it, I could release it by the end of the weekend (but we all know that won't happen).

I'll be posting updates (well, refreshers) later.  I also need to fix my pictures, I changed ISPs in the meantime.  Time Warner sucks, I will never again be their customer under any circumstances.  Not like I had a choice in the first place.

[sblanc1087 0]

Wow! Its great to hear that your back! If you need any help with pictures or anything let me know. Cant wait for your updates.

[nofunk 1,933]

Welcome back! It'll be nice to see some new progress.

[Sabretooth78 808]

I promised a near-term update, well I'm not quite to that point yet.  Soon, I promise.  I did make some progress today, but most of the time was spent stumbling along - not that I necessarily forgot how to do things, but you develop little techniques and shortcuts and obviously I've been gone for the better part of 3 years.  Therefore today was alot of inefficient mouse clicking, re-acclimating to gMax (keep in mind I use CAD, both AutoCAD and MicroStation at work extensively), and keeping the different mouse movements of 3 separate CAD applications separate can be quite maddening!

I would however, like to take this time to ask for help in two departments:

1.)  Project Logo:  I'd like to update the flying Buffalo as this one looks like crap IMO.  I know there were some good graphic designers in the BSP group; wondering if I could enlist some help.

2.)  Custom queries:  I have a good idea as to what I want them to look like, it's more of an implementation issue.  I'm sure I can read up on it, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment with all the developments in the game.  Maybe not so much from the standpoint that there have been alot, it's just that 3 years ago I think (or felt) I was pretty well on top of it all.  That said, my strong point has always been BATing and not the technical aspects of the deal; not even lot making for that matter.  On the other hand, I'm sure there are guys out there who are just the opposite - so why shouldn't we each focus on what we do best? 

Anywho, as a bit of a sidebar, here's what a lake effect snowstorm looks like from the air:

Neat stuff.  You can see why with these things, it can be whiteout conditions in one spot and bright and sunny just a mile away!  This particular one was pretty insignificant.

[ardecila 125]

I'll be happy to give the winged buffalo a try, but not until Wednesday or so. I'm quite busy early this week.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Glad to see you pulling the project back together! 

The BSP will be here for support.  I'd be willing to help, and I'm sure Nofunk would too.  Both of us are pretty busy with school and our own projects though, so support might be pretty limited.

Queries can be nice, but they add another layer of work that makes it hard to complete projects.  So now might not be the time to start adding them.  Can you make a mock-up of your query design idea for us?

Where do you work?  Check to see if they have a copy of 3ds Max.

[ardecila 125]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Queries can be nice, but they add another layer of work that makes it hard to complete projects.  So now might not be the time to start adding them.quote>

Only if you personalize the query for each building.  If you have a generalized Buffalo Wing query, you only have to make it once.

[Andreas Roth 629]

If possible, you should make a generic query UI for all of your buildings, since those things tend to be rather resource-intensive (esp. when applying a custom picture), so this should be reserved for the really special landmarks.

[Sabretooth78 808]

First off, I highly doubt there's a copy of 3DS max where I work (consulting engineering firm).  We are fairly CAD-intensive and some of the planners use various software to make presentation plans and stuff, but I don't think anybody works in 3D.  Our IT guy, however, downloads tons of software and movies and stuff (of various legality!) and seems to be getting new stuff all the time.

Well I was thinking a custom query for each building, but I ddin't realize how intensive they were.  I could easily just go along with a project specific one, however.

What I was envisioning was something very similar to the default, just with the image (obviously) and perhaps a little blurb about the building.  And maybe a different font/font size.

Thinking of a composite image, maybe something like this (this would be an example of a possible project-encompassing option):

This is a skyline shot (duh ) at about 40% transparency overlaid with the city flag at about 15% transparency.  Naturally everything is open to suggestion, I'm just throwing it out as a starting point.  I know a few amateur urban photographers who specialize (or at least their favorite target is) Buffalo, so getting a good image, permissions (will give credit), and all that good stuff should be fairly easy.  Of course if I were to go with a skyline shot, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to rotate the query box 90° since skylines are typically photographed horizontally.

Don't worry about time constraints, you'll probably still be moving faster than I will.  Heck, I still need to prove I can get started and keep going.

Project logo:  I was thinking something more modern, maybe outlined, maybe along the lines of (from the Buffalo/Niagara CVB):

Or maybe I just ditch the buffalo altogether and incorporate the flag (which is fairly distinctive), I dunno.  Open to anything, really.

Like I said, I'm not particularly concerned with time.  If I was I wouldn't have spent the last 3 years in hibernation!  I will provide some specifics and guidance, but all-in-all if it's just the same I'd just assume have my hands out of the "dirty work".

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Actually, I think the flag would work really well for everything.  A simple watermark of the flag for the query, and for the project logo, maybe an inverted version (so the background is white, and the white is blue).  I think that would also work for when new buildings are built and the skyline changes, but I guess that's a small thing.  The resources aspect of queries is also good to consider too as Andreas said.

I also like the buffalo, and it relates to the name of the project.  I'd prefer a more stylized art deco version of it over a 90'sification though.

Definitely get 3ds max if you can!  It's worth it.  We can help you get it set up and help you use it.

[Andreas Roth 629]

Yeah, using the city flag should create a nice effect indeed. Please keep in mind that you can only use PNG in your query, and this format works best for logos and stuff like this, where you have monochrome colors and sharp edges. Also, it's the text/statistics that is most important for a query, not the image.

[ardecila 125]

Did somebody say Art Deco?

[Sabretooth78 808]

Hmmm...you've all got me thinking (never a good thing!)

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Actually, I think the flag would work really well for everything.  A simple watermark of the flag for the query, and for the project logo, maybe an inverted version (so the background is white, and the white is blue).  I think that would also work for when new buildings are built and the skyline changes, but I guess that's a small thing.  The resources aspect of queries is also good to consider too as Andreas said.

I also like the buffalo, and it relates to the name of the project.  I'd prefer a more stylized art deco version of it over a 90'sification though.quote>

What if I took the flag, removed the Seal of the City from the interior, replaced it with some form of flying buffalo, and then ringed the entire thing with the project name?  The lightning bolts already convey an art deco appearance, besides which I think fits the actual city like a glove.

Or I could keep it the same, ring it with the project name, and change the project name to something else (it was named on a suggested whim in the first place).

Originally posted by: Jasoncw Definitely get 3ds max if you can!  It's worth it.  We can help you get it set up and help you use it.quote>

Depends on what I could get it for.  I would imagine normal drawing activities would be easier/more powerful?  One thing I can't stand in  gMax is that the snaps sometimes don't snap where they should, depending on how you grab a vertex, etc.  I also hate the way it creates spline curves when you combine closed polylines and trim, etc.

Sounds similar to another issue I've been having - I've been kicking around the idea of getting a Mac lately.  But I don't have anything to run on it, I'd just be running Windows on it.  So I questioning if I really need to have it.  (I've about had it up to here with Windows on PC.)

Oh yeah, as for the skyline changing, it's looked almost exactly the same since 1970 when HSBC was completed (which while being the tallest isn't exactly the most positive addition - thank God the 2 companion towers never made it off the drawing board).  All indications are it'll be changing somewhat in the next 2-5 years, but this is Buffalo afterall.  

All hail Bashar Issa!

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Ardecila, I did!! 

sargeantcm, that would work, but I wouldn't put the text around it as well, I'd just leave it off.

Gmax is the free, mega dumbed down version of a pretty out of date version of 3ds Max.  3ds Max is a lot faster, has a lot more and better options for making things, can render at a much higher quality (but still a lot faster), and is better than Gmax in every way.  You get it to replace Gmax for almost all functions.

[Sabretooth78 808]

Alright, I'll probably just change the logo to that and leave the project name alone. That works and then I really don't need to update anything. Most of my BATs, actually, need to be updated anyways.

I looked and it doesn't appear we have 3ds max at work. Oh well. I can't justify the cost of the package, not for what I use it for and how often. If I were still able to get one of the student discounts, I'd seriously consider it but that ship sailed a long time ago. I suppose that what I have been doing has served me well enough...

Speaking of BATing, I didn't get a chance to get anything done yesterday. Today I have to try and get tickets for the Sabres-Penguins outdoor hockey game.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

REALLY great to see you back! Buffalo has such a cool flag, suprised that I haven't ever seen it before (I'm also interested in vexiology-the study of flags). I like the idea you have with the city, flag watermark, and flying Buffalo. Custom queries are pretty easy once you have a template to paste everything over. I suggest finding Hordjik's (I think I spelled his s/n right), as it is probably the best one for a beginner to look at. There's also some good stuff in Deleany's tutorial as well, but I suggest you read Horjik's tutorial first. Also I know my way around a query or two, so PM me if you need help and we'll go from there.

Once you master queries and have a template, it'll probably only take like an hour at the most to whip one up. I use a special query for each of my BATS, but they are based on a template. It just takes time to whip up the new background graphics.

I do hope you can get some more Buffalo BATs out. I miss seeing new Opperation Buffalo Wing releases on the STEX!

[Ryan B 35]

Looks like it's time to reclaim my seat in the stands here.  *sits down and cracks a root beer*

Good to see ya back, Sarge! 

[nofunk 1,933]

sargeantcm: If you need any assistance with lotting or modding, just let me know! Like Jason said, I'm pretty busy with grad school right now, but I'm sure I could find some time to help.

[Sabretooth78 808]

So I was able to get a contact with one of our software vendors and was able to get a decent deal on 3dsMax 9. Connections are a wonderful thing... Kind of a sordid affair actually as I don't have a DVD drive (used to on my last computer), had to make an ISO out of it, break it up, and copy it to the hard drive and install it that way. Hey but it's all over now!

First things first I'm going to convert all my models over, and then configure the BAT. Then I should theoretically be able to get rolling again.

sparkythepenguin:  What's funny is I had never seen the flag until after I had moved back a couple of years ago - I think I saw it painted on the side of a City DPW maintenance truck and thought "that's a really neat looking flag!"  It's unfortunate that it's not displayed in too many places (only 2 according to waymarking.com, and City Hall isn't one of them). 

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Great news!!!

Don't be afraid to post for help when you set up the BAT4Max (found in the modds and downloads section of this site).  There will probably be some error you'll need to work through to get it set up.  But once it's up and running, it's super worthwhile.  You can check out SimFox's thread to see the type of stuff you can make.

Converting from Gmax can be tricky.  There are tutorials around which can help you.  But sometimes the geometry gets corrupted, and you'll need to remake parts.  And all of the time, you will loose your textures, and you'll need to reapply all of the textures.

[Roadwolf 0]

Wow very cool is this available for download anywhere yet? i live in buffalo and would enjoy placing some of these buildings in my game

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Just search the STEX for Buffalo and you'll get stuff. 

[sblanc1087 0]

Hey sargeantcm,

I found a google sketch up file of the empire state plaza online here:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=f5407fdf83bbaa589acf49900a4ddaf6&prevstart=0

If you download the file and open it with googleearth you can move around and zoom in and out of the whole plaza with all the buildings to see what they look like and placement.

[sparkythepenguin 90]

Sarge: Sounds like they need a publicity campaign for the Buffalo flag. Portland's flag recently had a redesign and some newspaper attention and that got it flying in several places. It only used to fly at City Hall, the Portland Building, and Pioneer Square, but now I see it flown on more and more private buisnesses downtown.

Those lightning bolts are too cool to be hidden!