What is music?

[astronelson 339]

I like my music much the same as my poetry - the choice of metrical foot and metre in each verse correspond to the choice of time signature, tempo, and notes being played in harmony. Indeed, one of my criteria for a good poem is that reading it aloud should blur the distinction between speech and song.

So I define music as something that contains harmony, a consistent tempo, and a consistent time signature, at least within each verse, or in the case of non-lyrical music, each movement.

I know it's not a particularly rigorous definition, and there are probably exceptions, but it's a decent rule of thumb.

Astro, have you ever heard the piece "Classical Gas"? The time signature alternates between 4/4 and 5/4 every bar.

I have, and quite like it. I would suppose that would be like a poem alternating between iambs and trochees every line. It still has a consistent structure.

[Jelendria 3]

poeme electronique is a disturbing combination of sounds that cannot be considered music

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

There is no real way to define music apart from "Ordered noise" It is much like art can be anything you say it is, you can say two twigs on a plate is art and nobody can say it isn't.

Agree, "Ordered Noise" is the best definition I've heard.

I am not sure that is sufficient. How about Ordered Memorable Noise.

What good is a concert when you can't take anything away from it? I don't much care for 20th century atonal stuff because it is not particularly hummable, let alone singable. Music must have a melodic base. Middle eastern music, quarter tones and all, is better than some of the noise that is passing as music these days. Far eastern music also employs quarter tones in a different way, and is often very acceptable. Take the Japanese piece Sakura. It is beautiful in a different way.

The current scream and shout noises are a long way from being memorable for the most part. "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". from The Scottish Play by the Bard of Avon.

[Ion_Cannon 677]

That is just your opinion though, even though I agree with it. Music is often sadly just used as background noise now. A significant number of pubs in particular always play music in the background, for no real reason. Alot of people are also totally blind to how similar so much of their so called music is.

Memorable is a good way of putting it, but catchy is a negative way of putting it, by all means not all catchy songs are bad, but alot from the current generation are. In fact I think they're designed to be catchy so people don't notice just how bad they actually are. An example would be "I Gotta Feeling" by the Black Eyed Peas, horrible horrible stuff.

You also have to be careful when lumping genres together, due to subgenres and the like. Mainstream music is for the most part terrible trash, but if you dig a little deeper you can still find great new bands who do new things or comprise a variety of older styles to create something unique. I don't think you would find this is the case with pop music because it exists for one reason - to be popular and make money, they are going to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

  Edited August 20, 2011 by Ion_Cannon  

[Alejandro24 575]

poeme electronique is a disturbing combination of sounds that cannot be considered music

"Every manifestation of our life is accompained with noise." Luigi Russolo

I still think: the definition of music is personal, is subjective, just according many variables that makes every person a individual from each other. (La definición de música es personal, es subjetiva, es acorde varias variables que hacen a cada persona individual una de otra).

I'm thinking in a song, from my musical taste:

And other:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHW9wv05UnA

[hym 358]

I remember when we had this debate in my philosophy class. It was eventually decided that as soon as you said you believed music is subjective, the whole "What is music?" question became a logical impossibility.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

hym, that's like the final exam in philosophy that only had one question on it: "Why?"

The only acceptable answer was: "Why not?".

Music is in the mind of the beholder. Different minds accept different things mostly due to acculturation. One person's music is another's cacophony, and it is true through the generations. Only some music makes it into the historical repertory. These are the pieces that the general members of the culture agree on after a generation or so has passed.

Bach was unknown except to professional musicians until he was popularized by Mendelssohn giving Bach concerts in the 1900 time frame. This made keyboard literature available to everybody because of Bach's fundamental works. You see, counterpoint had fallen out of favor.

  Edited August 20, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[MuzicMan 1]

I am somewhat surprised, no one has correctly defined "music" in this thread.

"Music" at its core definition: A Greek word that means, to offer praise. If you look at the definition of praise, you find it to mean, to give power to a subject.

Music can be recited poetry, without any melody at all. It can be screamed, growled, howled, yelled or sung. The harmony, melody and beat are not really disciplines of music at all. All that matters is this; "music" must offer praise to its subject, or give power to its subject matter, with a time. Music is spiritual. Therefore, anyone who recites, sings or plays, while feeling the message in the music, is offering praise(power/strength) to the recited subject and is performing music.

  Edited August 20, 2011 by MuzicMan  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

poeme electronique is a disturbing combination of sounds that cannot be considered music

I took the same class. As a matter-of-fact, I transferred all the music from that class onto my computer. I completely agree with you that Poème électronique is a disturbing combination of sounds and cannot be considered music or pleasant. It is a thought-provoking experiment in sound using electronics but calling that music is like calling this art:

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

poeme electronique is a disturbing combination of sounds that cannot be considered music

I took the same class. As a matter-of-fact, I transferred all the music from that class onto my computer. I completely agree with you that Poème électronique is a disturbing combination of sounds and cannot be considered music or pleasant. It is a thought-provoking experiment in sound using electronics but calling that music is like calling this art:

This image is restricted.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Restricted?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

i got a "you can't see this because ..." message instead of the image. Could it be that that border is in the way?

Last night, I got a reminder of what I consider real music. KCTS ran a concert with the Vienna Philharmonic and the first piece was Liszt's Preludes. A final statement of classical music leaning toward the romantic. If you haven't heard this one, it is worth half an hour of your life to see where music was going in the late 19th century.

Excerpts from this piece were used for bridge music in the radio version of The Lone Ranger. How many remember that show? That show also used bleeding chunks from the overture to William Tell by Rossini.

I do not say that full orchestral music is the only thing, but in those days, this was essentially pop. The only other stuff around was chamber music.

When trying to define music, maybe one should go back to Pythagoras and the Pentatonic scale, or maybe to Hildegarde von Bingen in the 16th century. What you are hearing now owes a lot to the development of non-conversational sound over the years.

I do say that covering the errors of a singer with a loud base and other noise, it not music.

  Edited August 22, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrueArtIsIncomprehensible

That is where I found it.

[Jazzmaster 716]

I'm a little curious to know, and without starting a new thread. What does ST think of Jazz music? I hear many things about it, and rarely anything positive. It's one of the most melodic, soothing genres I know (albeit, there IS crappy Jazz).

[EyeofMobius 27]

Ah Jazz...

To me it is the same as everything else having some very notable and amazing stuff but having some very forgettable pieces as well. I do like Jazz I really do and have a few stations bookmarked for internet playback but there are so many times also where I simply can't stand to sit through a particular song because it comes across as racket that grates on me like road rash. I will happily admit that I am a bit of a sucker for soothing muted trumpet stuff.

Back to the topic of music for my 2 pence...

A staggering amount of what is broadcast on anything mainstream is absolute factory feedlot garbage. In mainstream media a hit song is basically anything that has been tested in laboratory conditions and been found market viable. You should be fully aware of how bad the hit industry is when Justin Bieber fans vehemently protested the Grammy win of Arcade Fire, an independant band, over the undeservidely marketable pop-tart product based soley on the fact of who had more facebook fans and twitter followers.

"The reason that mainstream is thought of as a stream is becaue of its shallowness." George Carlin

I encourage everyone reading and contributing to this discussion to do two things.

1. Next time you travel and make a foreign freind find out what some of their favourite bands are from home. I have found so much good stuff just through meeting different people.

2. Go and find a new internet radio station to like in addition to what you alreay like; Bonus is if it is from another country; Extra bonus if it is in another language; Deluxe Ice creamy goodness prize if it is a community non-commercial radio station. My latest radio station is WCOM Community radio in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA.

[DCMetro34 577]

....

Back to the topic of music for my 2 pence...

A staggering amount of what is broadcast on anything mainstream is absolute factory feedlot garbage. In mainstream media a hit song is basically anything that has been tested in laboratory conditions and been found market viable. You should be fully aware of how bad the hit industry is when Justin Bieber fans vehemently protested the Grammy win of Arcade Fire, an independant band, over the undeservidely marketable pop-tart product based soley on the fact of who had more facebook fans and twitter followers.

.....

They say is in the eye of the beholder. Plus, most people like the music that they grew up too. Deservedly or not, he is what's popular now. I don't particularly like him, but I do listen to music that has been produced in the 2000s.

Some of my favorite bands are Panic! at the Disco, Fall Out Boy, The Cab, and Green Day. I also like U2 and older rocks bands like that, too. Personally, I don't like jazz. Some of the songs are okay, but I favor this style more. Some people like classical music, some like classic rock, some like rap. I just cannot see how you can't call a genre "music".

I also think it's a tad ignorant when people assume that all music these days is rap or pop, like Justin Bieber. As I said above, there are about 4 bands off the top of my head that play actual instruments that I really enjoy listening to; and not every album that comes out is a drum machine and vocals. Now, it is true that rap/pop is more popular than the bands I like... but it doesn't bother me. Music in my opinion is whatever people enjoy listening to, regardless of the sound.

You may say that rap has no instruments, therefore making it not "music", but classical and some jazz has no "singing", so couldn't that be not "music"? Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  Edited August 24, 2011 by DCMetro34  

[BuggUla 405]

An easy definition: If I like it, it's music... If I don't, it's noise.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

An easy definition: If I like it, it's music... If I don't, it's noise.

Amen.

Now about jazz. Jazz originated in The Big Easy (New Orleans) in the early part of the twentieth century. The best definition I've ever heard was by Louis Armstrong in the musical edition of the Philadelphia Story, namely High Society which starred the great Satchmo, Bing Crosby, Grace Kelly, Frank Sinatra, Celeste Holm and just about every good character actor in the business at the time.

If you are interested in formal jazz, there's Concerto in F by George Gershwin. A stage show set to nothing but jazz idiom is Porgy and Bess by George and Ira Gershwin. And one of the ultimate expressions of jass is Rhapsody in Blue by George as played by Oscar Levant with the Paul Whiteman orchestra. As the man says, "Now you has jazz".

[tcgchamp 0]

honestly the artists on the radio these days(country, rap/hiphop thing) is all just noise with no passion. all i hear is these fake "artist" and their investors making money off their investments. true artists (people with passion for writing such as thrice) don't have a team of people writing their songs for the masses; they are a team creating beautiful art. music is supposed to be an art-form and it really bothers me that the money is bastardizing the whole thing.

/rant is done haha

i got a "you can't see this because ..." message instead of the image. Could it be that that border is in the way?

Last night, I got a reminder of what I consider real music. KCTS ran a concert with the Vienna Philharmonic and the first piece was Liszt's Preludes. A final statement of classical music leaning toward the romantic. If you haven't heard this one, it is worth half an hour of your life to see where music was going in the late 19th century.

Excerpts from this piece were used for bridge music in the radio version of The Lone Ranger. How many remember that show? That show also used bleeding chunks from the overture to William Tell by Rossini.

I do not say that full orchestral music is the only thing, but in those days, this was essentially pop. The only other stuff around was chamber music.

When trying to define music, maybe one should go back to Pythagoras and the Pentatonic scale, or maybe to Hildegarde von Bingen in the 16th century. What you are hearing now owes a lot to the development of non-conversational sound over the years.

I do say that covering the errors of a singer with a loud base and other noise, it not music.

I'd be glad if they actually sang, i would then have to respect them for it. its all lip sync and autotune. i watched the CMT, VH1, and MTV(i think they have one) music awards; it was all fake. not one person sang or performed... except maybe the CMT drummers(not like it takes talent to execute those songs on the drums though, its like entry level stuff).

  Edited August 26, 2011 by tcgchamp  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

When I was working at the U of Waterloo I had a subscription to the K-W symphony and several of the side series. They hired a new percussionist, and one night at one of the chamber concerts he played the test piece that got him the job. It was very modern with a graphical score that they handed out reduced copies of. This guy stood in the middle of his instruments which were arranged in a circle around him and played some of the best percussion I've ever heard. Very few bangs and cymbal rolls, but one of the best rhythmic pieces that used every percussion instrument in the orchestra in a melodic and beautiful form. It was pure, abstract music in a genre I had never experienced before, never have since, but boy, am I willing.

As I recall, that was also the year that the K-W Symphony started putting together a stage performance of the Ring of the Neibelungen. (Four operas by Richard Wagner telling the Walsungasaga (sort of)). The performance of Rheingold was included and I went, of course. Unfortunately, I moved to Toronto again, shortly after. I have seen the whole Ring cycle, but never in a continuous series as this costs the earth to produce and take four days. Gotterdamerung, the last one, takes six hours.

If you can find it, you should listen to Anna Russel's interpretation of the Ring cycle. It takes about half an hour to take the pickle out of the whole 22 hours of Wagner. If you know the Ring, it is hilarious.

  Edited August 26, 2011 by A Nonny Moose