HELP: City Stagnation Problem

[dementor101 0]

Hi! This is my first post! I had been playing SC4 for a while and I am enjoying it until my city just turned to stagnation. The demand bars were basically floating. Meaning they go up a few, and people come in and develop buildings, then they go down abandoning the buildings. They just repeat this cycle over and over. I dunno whats wrong.

Basically I did regional play and did specialized cities. My main city is NEWPORT, which is a commercial and residential city. Then MONOHEIGHT which is a manufacturing industrial city. Then Silicon Valley ( yeah overused name, Im too tired to think of names, and Imma probably change it later ), which is a high-tech industrial city. Then CRAPVILLE, pretty self explanatory, dumpsite, utilities and dirty industrial city. It is also where the electricity and water comes from to other adjacent cities.

( SORRY, I DUNNO HOW TO PROPERLY POST IMAGES YET... SO I JUST PUT THE LINKS TO IMAGES TO MY CITIES)

http://img268.images...1300025922.gif/

I planned everything before hand, in the zoning and traffic system and I did the same traffic system for the whole region. What I did for the cities is a compartmentalized grid traffic system. Meaning the city is divided among huge compartments and you can only cross to another compartment through connecting hways and rails. Each compartment is bordered by avenues. There are ground hways and monorails in between compartments that connect to other cities. I put bus stops around each compartment and 2 sets of 4 monorail stations in each compartment. Aside from the citywide ground hway and monorails, I also put intra-city elevated hways that slice horizontally through the middle of each compartment. The elevated hway does not connect to other cities for it only serves as an expressway for an alternate fast route in going east or west of the city. I believed this layout would work even in the later stages since its a diverse traffic system. But right now in the later stages of development, I am having residential buildings being abandoned due to commute time. I already considered the fact of having to cross cities for those who work in the industrial cities, but the inter-city ground hways and very fast monorails would have done the job. I also tried adding the subway system and placed a station beside each bus stop thinking maybe buses are too slow for transport and subways are better alternative. Unfortunately, people really rode and subways but still there was no considerable improvement in the commute time and it was just a waste of money and extra maintenance expenses. So I did not save it. I dunno what to do...

Oh, I almost forgo to mention that I am using the latest NAM Mod with the Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool ( I think this is the new feature which comes with the latest NAM ) wherein I already activated the HIGHWAY BUS LANES and set the preference for the people of all 100% of residential social classes to use the fastest route.

http://img861.images...1300025970.gif/

http://img853.images...2413000280.gif/

http://img215.images...2413000257.gif/

http://img852.images...2413000258.gif/

I also had problems with the commercial population cap. I dunno how to increase the commercial population cap aside from the airport, plazas, and reward building that I put already. I already placed 8 flower gardens for each residential compartment and 8 plazas for each commercial compartment. The way I zoned for residential compartment was the whole compartment was medium density residential with a chunk of medium density commercial in the middle adjacent to the elevated hways. The 4 central commercial compartments were purely medium density commercial with half of each compartment high density commercial. Unfortunately, up to now, I don't see commercial skyscrapers despite upward demand. The other industrial cities were purely industrial zoned depending on type of industry whether dirty, manufacturing, or hightech.

It seems I don't know how to solve it anymore. I may have made mistakes in zoning. Or maybe the zoning is not proportional, but I always zoned in terms of demands, so I doubt if proportionality is the issue. Any ideas to improve it?

Any ideas or help would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

  Edited March 13, 2011 by dementor101  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Welcome to the conversation.

Sounds to me like you have bumped your head against the built-in algorithm of the game wanting each tile to be a balanced entity. Dividing by zoning class works for a while, but eventually you will get stymied. Make sure you have a good backup and try this.

Take your commercial/residential city and (I hope it has some free space) zone a 6x6 high-density industrial (make sure your taxes forbid dirty industry), and see what happens. Best place is next to a railroad line, or even have the line go through the middle. You might have to put in a freight station. If you have taxed all industry out, then set the tax for I-HT to 7%.

  Edited March 13, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Tysons4 68]

when making specialized cities, you can also seperate your commercial and your residential.

the commercial office likes to grow next to commercial service and if the whole city is planned commercial. when demand drops for commercial, play one of he industry or residential. and when commercial demand is positive go to your commercial city.

also put some water treatment plants (enough to make the water polution go away) in your industrial city and give it some water so some ht will grow.

[dementor101 0]

Hi! A Nony Moose! Thanks for your advice! I tried your idea but infortunately it didn't work... I added a few industrial zones, taxed dirty and manufacturing high, and added freight train stations but the demand for high-tech industry is super low to develop anything. My businesses are complaining to be bailing out for there were no more people to employ as people were leaving the city. I believe that the low business demands for offices just reflect the mass exodus of people leaving. But I don't really worry since the population never gets below 300,000 so the population just bounces up and down in a cycle between 310,00 and 340,000. And also I don't worry because my budget is still very positive. However, I still don't like the stagnation of my city. I want it to develop. But then, how come I have a super high demand for low wealth and medium wealth, and a little to zero for high wealth; and people are still leaving the city? I tried looking closely and main complaint for every abandoned residential building was LONG COMMUTE. Now this is what really frustrates me, I had all the avenues, highways, and monorails, crisscrossing the whole city and lots of bus stops and stations at almost every block, and with the commute time graph saying a value of 16 (I don't know what that number is if it's hours or minutes but since it's low, it's good), AND I STILL HAVE LONG COMMUTE TIMES?!!! Again I already knew of the idea of some of the people having to go across city to go to industrial jobs, BUT THEY USE SUPER DUPER FAST HIGHWAYS AND MONORAILS, so there should be no problem with that. When I tried looking for congestion at the traffic data, almost all are green. Only red at exactly at the central monorail stations since they are used a lot but I do believe they don't contribute to traffic time, so its not the reason. WITH ALL THIS IN CONSIDERATION, I COULD NOT FIND THE REAL REASON WHY THEY STILL ABANDON MY CITY FOR LONG COMMUTE TIMES?!!! I ALREADY PROVIDED EVERYTHING?!

THIS REALLY MAKES ME WISH THEY INCLUDE TELEPORTALS IN THE GAME... I DON'T CARE HOW EXPENSIVE!!! I HAVE THE MONEY ANYWAYS!!! Then it would become highly unrealistic... lol!

Then, I had this idea that maybe the LAYOUT of the zoning of my city may be the reason... I don't know if it may be the reason... I would like the opinion of the forum for this... If ever I would proceed with such, it would be okay for me to handle the recession since I have lots of cash already in bank.

HERE IS THE LAYOUT OF MY MAIN CITY

THE LAYOUT FOR MY INDUSTRIAL CITIES ARE SIMILAR TO THIS ONE BUT THEY ARE ALL PURELY INDUSTRIAL DEPENDING ON THE TYPE OF INDUSTRY WHETHER DIRTY, MANUFACTURING, OR HIGHTECH... Please refer to my first message to view the region layout and description...

So what do you think? Any ideas to solve this LONG COMMUTE TIME NIGHTMARE?

Thanks in advance!

  Edited March 15, 2011 by dementor101  

[Tysons4 68]

you need to build some high density for your r$$s to build some towers. change 3 of your mid res to high res squares and you should see it come back to life

and to solve the long commute time use mass transit. the more cities in your region that use it, the better your cities will become

  Edited March 15, 2011 by Tysons4  

[dementor101 0]

Hi Tysons4!!! Thanks for replying!!!

First of all, the reason why I only zoned with medium density is because I wanna find out early on the traffic effects of spreading out in a fully zoned city. In other words, I wanna find out early if my traffic systems works for a fully zoned big city. Unfortunately, it does not satisfy the needs since there are buildings being abandoned because of LONG COMMUTE TIMES.

Nevertheless, I tried your suggestion. There were considerable developments with tall buildings being made as you had said. Unfortunately, these tall buildings, as I had predicted, just got abandoned later because of LONG COMMUTE TIMES.

The problem with my city obviously are LONG COMMUTE TIMES.

So, how do I solve this LONG COMMUTE TIMES?

Highways: CHECK (with both ground and elevated highways along the borders and passing across every compartment)

Mass transit: CHECK (with bus stops at almost every block and 8 monorails stations in every compartment)

Sophisticated high-density traffic network: CHECK (hway, monorail, bus)

High-density traffic connections to other cities: CHECK (with ground hway and monorail connections to other cities)

Again this are the pictures to see what I mean...

Considering all these present in my city, WHY ON EARTH ARE THERE STILL LONG COMMUTE TIMES THAT ARE MAKING THE STUPID PEOPLE LEAVE MY CITY?!!!

I don't know what else to do...

Any ideas again would be appreciated...

[KyleKidd 0]

I notice all the roads you have for your residential areas are just streets. Why not upgrade to regular roads?

Have you also checked your traffic congestion map to see if there are any traffic problem areas?

[mojogojo 4]

Dementor, I believe the problem you are having is due to a bug that exists when having too many intercity connections in an area. More specifically on the corners of your cities. The bug , I think, is called the endless commuter bug. Its tough for me to explain but ill give it a try....

Lets say you have 4 cities in your region like this

City 1 City2

-------X-------

City 3 City 4

You can connect city 1 to city 2 and city 3 with a road or what have you. To bring city 4 into the network you then connect it to city 2 and city 3, which connects it to city 1, all of this you know. The part where it gets tricky is if your neighbor connections are very close to the center of those 4 cities,which i marked with an X in the diagram, the corner ALL 4 cities border, then alot of your commuters will travel endlessly in a circle through all 4 of those cities and never

find a home

To solve your problem you have to bust up your perfect grids of avenues and roads that are neighbor connectors and too close to the center of all the cities involved.

If that didnt help you understand http://www.simphoni....php?t13412.html is just one of many pages on the topic.

Been playing for 7 years and still havent found a fix for that bug!

  Edited March 15, 2011 by mojogojo  

[dementor101 0]

Hi KyleKidd!!! Thanks for replying!

I understand your concern, but the reason why I am still using streets instead of roads is because I am using NAM and I set it in a higher capacity than normal. Meaning my streets can take more cars without being heavily congested. With this in mind, the same higher capacity applies for my roads, avenues, highways, and rails. Considering this, my whole traffic network never gets a red congestion sign except for the monorail stations which really does not contribute to congestion since it's just a station and only indicates it high usage.

Hi mojogojo!!! Thanks a lot for presenting me a fresh new idea about this issue!

I understand what you mean by the endless loop. According to your theory, which is a game bug, people are using the traffic connections that connect the adjacent cities and instead of stopping to their city of destination, they just go in an endless loop.

Now, regarding my city, as you will see in my earlier post that my intercity connections were the ground highways ( IN RED LINES ) and the monorails ( IN PURPLE LINES ). With you presenting this idea, are you implying that I destroy the Y INTERCHANGE connecting NEWPORT, MONOHEIGHTS, and CRAPVILLE?

Also, I am sorry, but I may still have doubts about your theory. This is because the GROUND Y INTERCHANGE that connects NEWPORT to MONOHEIGHTS and CRAPVILLE is connected to the HORIZONTAL ELEVATED HIGHWAYS and these ELEVATED HIGHWAYS ARE ACTUALLY NOT CONNECTED TO OTHER CITIES. These ELEVATED HIGHWAYS are only for faster traveling to the east or to the west across the city. Which means that AT THE CORNER AREAS OF CRAPVILLE AND MONOHEIGHTS, THEY ARE NOT CONNECTED, EVEN AT THE MONORAILS

To explain what I mean, here's a photo...

Nevertheless, I will not disregard this idea and try "SHAKING THINGS UP A BIT". I may have to say goodbye to that Y INTERCHANGE SOON...

Again thanks for replying...

I AM STILL OPEN FOR MORE IDEAS TO THIS ISSUE SINCE I'M NOT SO MUCH CONFIDENT WITH THE LOOP THEORY...

THANKS AGAIN IN ADVANCE!!!

[mojogojo 4]

Dementor101, I believe you are right to doubt the loop bug being the culprit regarding the pic you recently posted. I misinterpreted your earlier pics, thought you had a few road neighbor connectors in there.... my mistake.

k that being said I would leave the highway system be and look elsewhere..try to work out all the variables as best you can by using the route query tool and following a res zone area and see what route they take. then make minor adjustments in your transit system such as onramp placements and access to those on/offramps, roads , mass transit, etc, then see the difference it makes. Use parking lots at some bus/mono stops.

I like the idea of prebuilding an entire city infrastructure but I rarely get the planned product..ha! Even with all of simcitys tools I still cant make in SC4 what i design on paper. Started playing the grow naturally then sculpt as i cant fight maxis code anymore!!!

Goodluck to you and your Q actually made me make my first post on an 3 year old account..cheers!!

[Death54 3]

You might be having troubles with too much or too little of one income type developing. Which wealth class buildings are abandoning specifically?

[dementor101 0]

Hi mojogojo!

Yeah, the looping was not problem. Your suggestions of placing parking lots are going to be redundant for me since I already set my NAM to let 99% of the residential to use mass transit. But thanks for the replies anyways!

Hi death54!

I tried looking at my graphs... it seems it does not really discriminate as to what kind of residential wealth are abandoning. But checking at the graphs, the ones constantly moving up and down are the low wealth and medium wealth residential.

Just an update to my city: I already added the intra-city subway network jotted around each compartment and placed it side by side with my bus stops. There was a great decrease in the usage of buses a huge increase in the usage of subways. However, there was only about 4 points (because I don't know how to interpret the commute time graph, it does not say if its hours or minutes) improvement. Not much improvement I suppose since there are still lots of buildings being abandoned.

This whole abandonment issue is getting so frustrating right now...

I might have to use demand mods in the end...

I AM STILL OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS! THANKS FOR THOSE WHO REPLIED!!!

[Ramona Brie 121]

I'm going to offer a new approach:

Have you heard of CAM (the Colossus Addon Mod)? If not, I highly recommend it (available from SC4Devotion). (Registering for that exchange will also give you access to some extremely fine content.)

If CAM (which does make major changes to the way the SC4 simulator handles growth) doesn't help, you may want to redesign your cities. I prefer maps with large city tiles, and I often spread out things very nicely. One design model I like and would recommend is the famed CJ/MD Tarkusian Cities, which may also help with planning out a realistic road network.

I also recommend using the most recent NAM traffic simulator. Commute time in SC4 is given in minutes, so "41" means a 41 minute commute, "89" means the commute is about an hour and a half, etc.

  Edited March 17, 2011 by Tracker  

[dementor101 0]

Hi Tracker! Thanks for replying!

Thanks for explaining how to interpret the whole commute time graph thing. The people at maxis just did not bother to indicate if its minutes or hours. I would have guess its minutes anyways. And I am also using the latest NAM with the Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool where I adjusted the commuter behaviours. I liked your idea of a city spread type of layout. I would say that also looks better. However, for now, I am trying to focus myself into building a metropolis in a confined area in the region and then later on spread out after the full development of the capital cities. I was hoping this whole NAM thing would have probably solved the whole issue of traffic and abandonment. But I guess not. It may be because of how SC4 is designed or something. Good thing there are mods. Nonetheless, I will into your interesting recommendation. I will try to report the results as soon as I can, but I have classes for now.

AND OF COURSE I AM STILL OPEN TO MORE SUGGESTIONS!!!! THANKS!!!

[Ramona Brie 121]

Hi Tracker! Thanks for replying!

Thanks for explaining how to interpret the whole commute time graph thing. The people at maxis just did not bother to indicate if its minutes or hours. I would have guess its minutes anyways. And I am also using the latest NAM with the Traffic Simulator Configuration Tool where I adjusted the commuter behaviours. I liked your idea of a city spread type of layout. I would say that also looks better. However, for now, I am trying to focus myself into building a metropolis in a confined area in the region and then later on spread out after the full development of the capital cities. I was hoping this whole NAM thing would have probably solved the whole issue of traffic and abandonment. But I guess not. It may be because of how SC4 is designed or something. Good thing there are mods. Nonetheless, I will into your interesting recommendation. I will try to report the results as soon as I can, but I have classes for now.

AND OF COURSE I AM STILL OPEN TO MORE SUGGESTIONS!!!! THANKS!!!

The (very immature) way I used to build cities was a grid of 6x6 blocks with avenues in between. Here's a taste: http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8573/camarenapeedeejunctiond.png Nowadays, I am better at creating commercial corridors, feeder streets, etc.

For you, perhaps the avenues and a bunch of high-density or mid-density zoning would be good. Suggestion: download all the SFBT rowhomes and some of the Hong Kong stuff once you have CAM. You may also want to consider reserving a few major corridors for avenue-tram or as subway lines with RTMT stations for a mass transit angle.

  Edited March 17, 2011 by Tracker  

[z1 566]

The problem with my city obviously are LONG COMMUTE TIMES.

So, how do I solve this LONG COMMUTE TIMES?

I just saw this thread for the first time. Part of the problem is that "Abandoned due to commute time" doesn't always mean abandoned due to commute time. And since you're using the NAM traffic simulator, it never means that, as Sims always have enough commute time by default. However, as you have seen, it is still very easy to get this problem. What it means in this case is that your Sims can't find a job, and the game classifies this as running out of commute time. Generally, there are two solutions that get rid of this problem:

1. Add more rapid transit (rails) to your city, and include plenty of stations.
2. Make sure that the number and types of jobs balance the number and types of workers. This is actually fairly complex; please see the Workforce and Occupation Demands (Drives) tutorial for details.

  Edited March 17, 2011 by z1