Nihonkaranws BATs

[nihonkaranws 88]

've been wanting to take a shot at a mosque for a while now, something Jerusalem, old Islamic style. Here's what I came up with so far...

What I was working on when I started this thread. Scrapped the idea, I hate the colors, dunno what I was thinking:

  Edited April 3, 2011 by nihonkaranws  

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Well, I haven't seen anything from you in a long time!

Looks good, although I am curious about what renderer you are using (looks like scan line). Perhaps you should try out the newest BAT 4 max. Do you plan on putting this into SC4? If so, I would really like to see how it comes out in a z5 preview render

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Wow!!! that looks good. Love the details on your textures, keep it up.

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Wow, welcome back!

Definitely an interesting building you've chosen to do there, it matched your sig perfectly.

Can't really offer any advice at the moment, I'll need to see more of the building, but from what I can see, you've made a good start. I will say that from an SC4 perspective though, you don't need to go into that much detail with the texturing. Also, I agree with Todd, get the latest BAT4Max. We've got a one-click MR render setup now thanks to Simfox.

[Evillions 552]

Improvement???? This is an instant download for me!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Especially for a building like this, it's important to do SC4 previews. You're rendering the building at a much higher resolution than what will be seen in the game, and it's likely that the facade will turn into a big murky smudge. All of the detail and contrast in the tiles will be lost, but that's an important part of the architecture. The way to avoid this is to texture, using the preview renders as a guide. This way instead of literally putting photos of the tiles on, you can paint from scratch (using the real ornament as a reference) textures so that when rendered for the game they give a better impression.

Other than that it's coming along well so far, but you're going to have to work with the textures a lot in order to get the tiles to read properly in the game.

[nihonkaranws 88]

Yeah its been a while, around 2 years yeah?

Todd, I'm using Lanczos mental ray, in max 2011, but I haven't installed bat4max so I just threw in a free light. And yeah I plan on uploading on the STEX one day, without overworking myself

Cockatoo, let's just say that I'm ignoring the religious aspect of it This is my second mosque attempt, the first one was too large a file and I can't open it now because of all the detail I modeled, so I got lazy with this one and just used complex textures with bump heheh.

And Jason you make an interesting point and one that I would of overlooked. I think Ill take your advice and retrace the textures, but at this point I'm just modeling and trying to get BAT4max running.

The lighting is weird because I throw in a free light like 50-60 meters from the mosque and the intensity's gotta be at around 18000 to even look like a sunset... default intensity is so dark, whats going on? Anyway I've done some more modeling and whatnot, here's the result so far

  Edited April 3, 2011 by nihonkaranws  

[Wrightguy0 40]

holy crap...... this is stunning!

[SimFox 802]

Lot of nice words had been said here and I do agree with many of them, However I should stress more or less same point Jason had brought up.

Whenever you do some project you should keep in mind target environment. If you don't you risk spend a lot of effort and in the end get something that simply doesn't work.

Texturing is very important in SC4, but only texture jobs normally don't look good in game. Especially on larger models since it is easy to see that geometry lacks. Textures with all the "effects" that look good and convincing on the sunny side don't look good in shadow and vice versa. Plus scale of the game means that tiling and repetitiveness became painfully obvious - like say here with those blue plucks with Koran (I assume) quotations, or the tiling on the minarets. And Bump isn't really gonna help here either. This is 2d post effect , as such the smallest details it could "create" is about 30-40 cm along vertical axis and 40+ along horizontal one. This is very large. Just for comparison with modeling you can successfully deliver thins 7-8 times smaller than that.

Lighting - lighting is a key thing. Because all you see is just light. Setup you have now is highly unrealistic in just about any way you can look at it be it real world or game. This is actually works to your advantage here - you get those pitch black sharp shadows that help define the shapes - like tracing them with a filter pen. plus that fact that you have decided to light you scene with small naked bulb works to you advantage - for example making right minaret is brighter than left, despite you complaining about it. Uneven illumination levels declining with distance of light source increasing is normal feature of all and any light sources called decay, helps in presentation of the shape - in the case of the last picture making right minaret is brighter than left, in a even light (like that of say sun in a earth scale) it would look much more flat without this flaw. When you do some artsy work it all possible, but when you make something that will exist in a given environment it is not. These were purely technical basics. So install Bat4Max set appropriate lighting and see how it will look at zoom5, And perhaps at zoom4 as well.

On the separate note, about the architecture I do have couple of problems with it.

First (1) one is the main arch. It, or to be precise the outer bits of it don't really look Arabic to me. Instead it look very art nouveau-ish.

Second (2) are those flat bits... I just can't wrap my head of what material these could have been made in the absence of reinforced concrete? Wood? Well it wouldn't be able to support the weight of the structure on top of it. Architecture evolves around available and used materials. So in stone building cultures you don't see anything like this. You may in wood building cultures, like Chinese one. But then you do have very different looking architecture as well.

All this said this is a very interesting project and subject. Grand mosques could add a lot to the game and are subject that due to it scale lends itself to BATing pretty well. But you do have to model more, not just hope that pictures will do it.

[zahrul3 471]

I disagree with SimFox geometry advice, some mosques actually have modern elements depending on where you are, how old is the mosque and the mosque's origin. Like SimFox, get bat4max and use preview renders at zoom 5 so you get the scale. Aside from that the mosque is overdecorated as us muslims believe mosques need to be simple. Another thing is, a mosque only needs one minaret, or you can get by with megaphone clusters like you would see on newer mosques(in muslim countries). It looks pretty much like the Al-Aqsa mosque in the border between Israel and West Bank, though it is more famous for the rock inside.

[nihonkaranws 88]

I actually originally had modeled quite a bit more of the details, its just that the whole model really slow down to load and whatnot with all the extra geometry, so I somewhat cheated with the bump map.

Simfox you make quite an interesting point in regards to the pillars under the thin balcony. It was supposed to be stone, but you're right about it's thinness and the lack of ability to realistically support the overhanging structure by columns. I think I might reduce the depth of the balconies and move the columns under the main structure. I think I'll also change the front arch to be a simple semi-circle opening shape, your'e right it would look alot better.

In regards to the lighting though, I'm not sure what to do about the bump textures... they aren't as good looking with sc4 lighting, I just don't wanna model too much in because the export will take forever and crap up my machine, as I mentioned above. I think for the minarets I'll choose some kinda texture that gets brighter as it climbs the structure, to reduce the noticeable effect of tiling - although some mosques are built this way

Zahrul, you have a point about mosque simplicity, but Im' getting my extra decor ideas from such buildings as masjid Ummayad in Dimascus, or Blue Mosque in Mazari Sharif in Afghanistan, or Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. What about the multiple minarets on mosques like Masjid al Haram or Ummayad Shrine in Damascus? I do however think it would be interesting to have one of these minarets right in the center over the archway, kinda like Hassan mosque in Casablancas.

Anyway I'll have some more images on here later, I'm still trying to setup BAT4max

[SimFox 802]

I couldn't send you PM as you have disable this for your account so I'm answering here:

hm strange... I would suggest to check if the folder is write protected...

Another could be that the file had got corrupted and can't unpack properly.

What about other files? Check if you have folder C:\Program Files(x86)\Autodesk\3ds Max 2011\gamepacks\bat\

[zahrul3 471]

Get Bat4Max to get a much better preview. Its free anyway

[nihonkaranws 88]

Alright well I haven't been able to install BAT on my computer, because I lost my SC4 disc so I have no registration # I'm assuming that's why BAT4max won't instal. I'm gonna pick up a copy of SC4 deluxe from a friend this weekend. Moving on, I've worked quite a bit more on the mosque, and got some renders to show:

[harishna 847]

looks like a monumental work are you using max?

[nihonkaranws 88]

Monumental? How so? I am using max, but I haven't managed to set up BAT4Max yet, so I had to create my own lighting setup.

[harishna 847]

Sorry I was very vague in my previous comment what I meant is: first monumental in terms of big elaborated model/project more as a compliment on the challenge you have taken.

Second I was asking if you were using max I am almost sure you don't need the game in order install Bat4Max, I could be wrong I guess SimFox could confirm this.

  Edited March 11, 2011 by harishna  

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

You still need gmax/BAT to create the model files for use in game. At least if you install BAT4max now you can start tuning your materials and perhaps even finish the model while you wait for a copy of SC4.