The Glasgow Thread

[clarkjordan12345 108]

 Hi everyone, I am starting this thread for several reasons, 1) I want to share with you all, this amazing city, 2) I really want to become more active in the forums and 3) There's a huge gap in the STEX (almost devoid of anything from Scotland) which I would like to fill and I hope to get some support with this (this would be covered in another thread) and maybe spawn a few items (and there's a bunch of crackers I want to show you all later!).  Anyways, I present to you: Glasgow, my favourite city,

Introduction

Glasgow is a city in Scotland (UK).  It is situated in the central belt of the country and is the largest city - by far - and the third largest city in the United Kingdom.  It is however, not the capital of Scotland (that title goes to near-by Edinburugh).  The River Clyde runs through the centre of the city and is its heart and soul.  

Brief History

The city has been inhabited since prehistoric times and was originally a bridging point over the river clyde.  The city was founded in the 7th century by Saint Mungo, the cities patron saint.  In 1707, after the Treaty of Union, Glasgow rose to prominence as the "Second city of the Empire" - The British one that is - as it's increasingly industrialising population gained access to the vast markets of the Empire (e.g. India, Australia, Central Africa, Eastern USA (Thirteen colonies).  The city became extremely wealthy out of trading goods such as tobacco, sugar and coal. In the mid-eighteen hundreds, there was a shipbuilding boom in the city and it became the centre of the shipbuilding world with the best ships being built there.  There was a devastating decline in the industry however after the second world war (a scene repeated all over the United Kingdom, e.g. South Wales, North East England) which left the economy in tatters with the burden of the remains of the Nazi bomber raids destroying huge areas of the city piled on top.  With a lack of housing stock, the authorities erected dozens of high rise apartment buildings (flats) which now dominate the skyline, and although a bit ugly, make the city beautiful in a strange way.  In 1990, Glasgow was named European Capital of Culture, however, Glasgow is usually sighted as "Europes Murder Capital" due to a (rapidly decreasing) drug and alcohol problem caused by a "culture" of overly-paranoid youths carrying knives for protection.  On the other hand, it was voted as Britain's most friendliest city and as Frankie Boyle (a famous comedian from the city) put it on BBC2's Mock the Week "You might get stabbed, but they'l give you the directions to the hospital".

Transport (Excluding current developments which will be explained later)

The city of Glasgow is well served by transport links to the surrounding areas as well as a stable inner-city network:

Road:

• M8/A8:  The M8 Motorway runs from Greenock (a town west of Glasgow), through the centre of the city and onto Edinburugh.  This is the busiest Motorway in Scotland. A few pictures of the M8:

The Kingston Bridge over the Clyde

Charring Cross, where the M8 is sunken

 

• M74/A74: The M74(A74) links Glasgow to the south of Scotland and more importantly England.

 

The M74 Glasgow bound (with road works in place)

 

• M77/A77:  Connects Glasgow with Ayrshire (where I live) and the towns of Irvine, Ayr and Kilmarnock.

 

The busy M77 heading into Glasgow

• A82: This heads north into Stirlingshire and the beautiful town of Stirling.  It is a Trunk Road. And goes all the way to Inverness in the north, passing by Loch Lomond and Loch Ness.

The A82 passes Loch Ness

 

• The Clyde Tunnel:  The Clyde Tunnel is a tunnel under the river clyde which makes up part of the A739.  It was built due to a need for a second major crossing of the clyde (after the Kingston Bridge).  The reason a tunnel was dug was because of the amount of shipping that passed through the area which would have been disrupted by the construction of a bridge which would have had to been to tall to be acceptable.

One entrance to the tunnel  

Major roads within Glasgow

Rail:

Glasgow has an extremely well developed railway system with extensive urban and suburban lines as well as two major central rail termini.  

Major stations:

• Glasgow Central Station (GLC):  A beautiful piece of Victorian architecture which nestles neatly in the city centre.  Although it is vast in size, it is hardly noticable from the outside.  Trains leave and arrive over the Clyde and into the station.  Around 25 million people use the station each year on average and there are services to Edinburugh, England (London Euston by Virgin Pendolino), Ayrshire, Inverclyde, Greater Glasgow and more.  The station was completed in 1869 and has 19 platforms (17 higher level and 2 lower level).

The station from the air

The front entrance

 

The stunning interior (refurbished in 2003)

 

• Glasgow Queen Street Station (GLQ): Glasgow Queen Street is the second largest station in Glasgow and is roughly 1km (walking distance) from Glasgow Central.  It faces onto George Square and the city chambers.  It also is in close proximity to Strathclyde University and Buchanan Street (a famous retail area of the city).  It has about half the amount of passangers as GLC annually and is the main station linking Glasgow to Edinburugh.  It also has lines to the North of Scotland including Oban via the West Highland Line (which includes the Glenfinnian Viaduct made famous by Harry Potter) which has been voted the best train journey in the world by readers of travel magazine wanderlust.  The station opened in 1842 and has 11 platforms (9 higher level and 2 lower level).

The rear of the station which leads into the tunnel under the city

The interior of the station with the train on the left about to depart for Edinburugh Waverley Station

A more recent photo with the new Scotrail trains

 

• St Enoch Station:  This station is now defunct and has been refurbished into a shopping mall.  The original station opened in 1870 and had 12 platforms.  It closed in 1966, a victim of Dr Richard Beeching's "The Reshaping of British Railways" Report.  The station lies a block away from GLC.

The original exterior

The original interior

The new "St Enoch Centre" shopping mall exterior

The new "St Enoch Centre" shopping mall interior

 Please discuss!  Next update tomorrow: Railway lines, Subway, buses and Airports!

Resized one image to 800 x 600 ~ Hotdogs

[antsel 841]

I love Scotland!!! Though, living in Edinburgh I am somewhat biased...

[glazert 89]

Since I was born in Glasgow and spent most of my working life commuting to the city centre, this thread naturally caught my eye.

For anyone who was trying to model the city, or even just the main  road network, they would face a number of challenges. The terrain is in places very hilly, so the M8 can within a two mile stretch vary from sunken, at ground level, over a viaduct, and through a tunnel. Over the same stretch the M8 can vary from two lanes in each direction to five lanes in each direction.

Good luck, and I will be watching with interest

[clarkjordan12345 108]

@Selles: Well, I did want to include Edinburugh but that would have been a lot of work, maybe I could start one later. I love Edinburugh as well, It's just that I only go through it on my way to the Airport, but my few experiences have went well.

@glazert: At the moment I'm not trying to recreate the city because of the problems you have mentioned, e.g. I don't think I could find anything to replace the science centre that would fit on the headland realistically, Although Queen Street would be easy to recreate, I don't know how I could recreate the central station, although, if I could get the terrain right, most of the city centre would be really easy. So the main points really are, buildings on the waterfront, GLC and the M8. There's plenty of high rise buildings on the STEX though. I'd also love a skin of the commuter trains that go between Glasgow and Ayr (the new ones).

Maybe we could start a wishlist with all the buildings and skins we need, then maybe we could model them our selves and others could help out.

I found this junction on a section of the A8, this is possible, yes?

http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=55.847163,-4.067312&spn=0.002759,0.010986&t=h&z=17

I don't think this would be possible though, even if it was, it would take up a huge space:

http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=55.854059,-4.090412&spn=0.005516,0.021973&t=h&z=16

Another:

http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=55.867606,-4.235637&spn=0.005514,0.021973&t=h&z=16

Although, Charring Cross doesn't look too dificult, it's the connection to the the Kingston Bridge that looks quite iffy:

http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=55.861346,-4.269768&spn=0.000689,0.002747&t=h&z=19

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Railway Lines: 

Glasgow is well served by a comprehensive rail network which has connections to urban, suburban and cross country destinations.

Major Lines departing from GLC:

Cross Country Line: Operated by CrossCountry using Super Voyager trains.  The route is (excluding small stations): GLC > Motherwell > Haymarket (Edinburugh) > Edinburugh Waverley > Dunbar and then onto the nation wide CrossCountry network which includes cities such as Aberdeen, Birmingham, Sheffield, Lancaster and Derby.

A CrossCountry Super Voyager at GLC

• West Coast Mainline:  Operated by Virgin Trains using the famous Pendolino trains.  The line terminates in London and has 51 stations.  The main route:  GLC > Carlisle > Manchester > Crewe > Birmingham > Rugby > London Euston.

A virgin Pendolino train at GLC

• East Coast Mainline: Operated by East Coast using Inner City 225 Locomotives.  There are 52 stations on the line.  The route includes: GLC > Haymarket/Edinburugh Waverley > Newcastle > York > Perterborough > London Euston.

An East Coast Locomotive at Edinburugh Waverley Station.

 

• TransPennine North West: Operated by TransPennine Express.  It gives access to 67 stations in Scotland and Northern England.  The route is GLC > Lockerbie > Carlisle then onto the TransPennine Express network,

TransPennine Express Locoomtive at GLC

 

• Lowland Caledonian Sleeper:  Operated by FIrst Scotrail using It is one of two of the only sleeper services left in the United Kingdom and gives goes from GLC to London with 46 stations on the route, the main being: GLC > Motherwell > Carlisle > Watford > London Euston.

A lowland Caledonian Sleeper

 

• Argyl Line:  Operated by First ScotRail, opened in 1879. The main route: Clydebank > Drumchapel > Westerton > Anniesland > Scotstoun Hill > Partick > SECC > Anderston > GLC > Argyl...

A train on the Argyl Line.

• Ayshire Coast Line:  The Ayshire Coast line runs from GLC and terminates in the seaside town of Ayr, the trains on the line have recently been replaced with newer models (The last models were only a few years old).  The route: GLC > Paisley Gilmour Street > St Johnston > KIlwinning > Irvine > Troon > Prestwick International Airport > Prestwick > Ayr.

A month old class 380 Desiro locomtoive on the Ayrshire Coast Line.

 

The other lines from GLC are: Inverclyde Line, Cathcart Circle Line, Paisley Canal Line, Shotts Line, North Berwick Line, Glasgow, South Western Line and the Whifflet Line.

 

 

Major Lines From Queen Street Station:

• North Clyde Line:  Operated by First ScotRail.  The line is urban and suburban and runs through most of the Glasgow area.  It also extends as far as Edinburugh.

A locomotive used on the line.

 

• West Highland Line:  This line runs from GLQ to Oban in the North. This line includes the Glenfinnian Viadcuct(made famous by Harry Potter) and was voted best railway journey in the world by readers of wanderlust magazine. The main route:  GLQ > Dalmuir >  Oban then onto Fort William > Glenfinnian > Malaig.

A Super Sprinter locomotive at GLQ Platform 3.

• Croy Line: The croy line is operated by First Scotrail and runs between GLQ and Dunbland north of Edinburugh.  The main route:  GLQ > Bishopbriggs (Glasgow) > Lenzie > Croy > Larbert > Stirling > Alloa > Bridge of Allan > Dunblane.

A First ScotRail locomotive at Croy Station, bound for Queen Street.

 

• Cumbernauld Line:  This is a suburban line linking Glasgow to the nearby town of Cumbernauld,   This line is not electrified and uses diesel locomtoives.  The main route is:  GLQ > (Junction to Edinburugh via Falkirk line) Springburn > (North Clyde Line junction) > Stepps > (Motherwell junction) > Cumbernauld...

A train (right) on the Cumbernauld Line

 

• Glasgow to Edinbueugh vis Falkirk Line:  One of the busiest in Scotland, it links Glasgow to Edinburugh.  The main route is: GLQ > Croy > Falkirk High > Polmont > Linlithgow > Haymarket (Edinburugh) > Edinburugh Waverley.

Locomotive at Falkirk High Station on the Glasgow to Edinbueugh via Falkirk Line.

The other lines from GLQ are: The Maryhill Line, Glasgow to Aberdeen Line and the Highland Main Line.

 

Next we will cover the Subway system in Glasgow.  Please comment and discuss!

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Subway:

The subway system in Glasgow first opened in 1896.  It is one of the oldest subway systems in the world with only London and Budapest subways older.  Around 42,000 people use the service daily and there are 15 stations in total.  Although mainly confined to the city centre (as the city has vastly expanded since 1896)  it remains one of the most used transport methods in the city.  The system is nicknamed the "Clockwork Orange" as the trains used are orange and the system runs in a large circle under the city.

A basic map including all stations.

The trains used in the subway.

 

The subway system is set to be upgraded for the 2014 Commonwealth Games which are to be held in the city and will be covered later.  The project will cost around £2.7 billion and will be spent on:

 

 

• Major refurbishments of the existing rollingstock.
• Refurbishment of the stations.
• A massive addition to the network with seven new stations incorporated into a second circle.  These new stations will be in the East End of the city and will include: St Mungo's, Onslow, Duke Street, Celtic Park (Parkhead), Dalmarnock, Newhall and the Gorbals.

Buchanan Street station (which is part of Queen Street Railway Station).

 

Please discuss and reply(you don't have to be from Glasgow)!  Next update, Busses and the Airports!  Also, please participate in the "Would You..." poll!

[TekindusT 3,809]

You haven't shown maybe the most famous features from Glasgow, Celtic Park and Ibrox Stadium; and the places these stadiums stand!

[clarkjordan12345 108]

All in good time my friend! I don't want to do everything at first, I'm going to do transport, then move onto architecture! keep looking back, I promise you they will be covered, or maybe you could add your own stuff if you want.

[glazert 89]

I'm sorry, but I have to question your statement that "The subway system is set to be upgraded for the 2014 Commonwealth Games" with "A massive addition to the network with seven new stations incorporated into a second circle". What is your source for this claim? There is no mention of it in the Glasgow 2014 Transport Strategic Plan Version 1 September 2010:

http://www.glasgow2014.com/assets/5ea91d92-ef81-4992-8c2d-2587d3ac36d0.pdf

[clarkjordan12345 108]

I'm not sure about that plan and really don't have time to read it all (but I'll try, it's very interesting) but my source is from the news, here's a report from the eveining times: click here

[Benedict 3,119]

Originally posted by: clarkjordan12345

I'm not sure about that plan and really don't have time to read it all (but I'll try, it's very interesting) but my source is from the news, here's a report from the eveining times: click here

quote>

Well, the report is from 2007, prior to the recession and austerity measures. Of the 3 major projects mentioned, the Glasgow airport rail link has been cancelled. No talk of an expensive subway expansion at the moment...

[clarkjordan12345 108]

I didn't hear about the subway expansion being cancelled but I don't think it was going to be a whole new tunnel, I think it was going to connect to the Argyl railway line or something along those lines (that wasn't a joke lol), and I think they are using an improved bus link in place of the rail link to the airport.

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Airports

The people of Glasgow have access to three international airports, these are as follows:

Glasgow International Airport: 

Opened: 1966

Location:  Just outside Glasgow near the town of Paisley.

Owner:  BAA Limited

Hub For: BMI Regional, Easyjet, Flybe, Jet2, Loganair, Thomas Cook AIrlines, Thomson Airways.

Runways: 1 (2.6Km)

Terminals: 1 main + extra check-in facility

Airlines: around 30

Annual Aircraft Movements: around 80,000

PAX: 7.5 million

Cargo: 3,000 tonnes

Notes: Scotland's long-haul gateway, was the first airport in Scotland to handle 1 million+ passengers in a month, was the target of a failed terrorist attack in 2007, opened by Queen Elizebeth in June 1966.

Source of Information: www.BAA.co.uk

 

The terminal building at Glasgow Airport

 

Glasgow Airport from above

BBC report on failed(quite pathetic) terrorist attack in 2007

A Loganair Saab 340B (on behalf of British Airways) lands at Glasgow

 

A Continental Airliner taxiing at Glasgow International

 

Prestwick International Airport:

Opened: 1938 (first civil operations)

Location: Prestwick (South Ayrshire) about 40km south west of Glasgow (accessible by    the M77 and a direct rail link to the airport's railway station on the Ayrshire Coast Line.

Owner: Infratil

Hub for: Ryanair

Runways: 2 (3km and 1.8km)

Terminals: 1

Airlines: 4

Annual Aircraft Movements: 36,000

PAX: 2.4 million (max 3 million)

Cargo: 32,000 tonnes

Notes:  Is the most weather-free airport in the world; only place in the United Kingdom Elvis ever stood on; used by USAF as refueling point; majority of Ryanair's fleet is maintained at the airport; world leaders landed at Prestwick for G8 Gleneagles summit in 2005;

graced with several iconic aircraft including Air Force 1, Concorde, the first A380 and the Antonov AN-255.

Source of information: www.infratil.com

The terminal at Prestwick

Aiforce One delivering President Bush to Scotland for the 2005 G8 summit.  He is greeted by then Labour First Minister Jack McConnell.

The first Airbus A380 on a whistle-stop tour lands at the airport

Concorde takes-off from Prestwick airport

The Antonov AN-255 Cargo Plane at Prestwick

 

Edinburgh International Airport: 

Opened: 1977

Owner: BAA

Hub For: BMI, Easyjet, Ryanair, Norwegian, Thomas Cook, Thomson Airways, British Airways, Jet2, Flybe

Runways: 2 (2.5km and 1.8km)

Terminals: 1

Airlines: 40+

Annual Aircraft Movements: 114,000

PAX: 9 million

Cargo: 10,200 tonnes

Notes: Scotland's busiest airport; formed in 1918 as an RAF base; new 57m ATC tower built in 2005, will be a terminus for the (terribly organized) tram service being built in Edinburgh.

Source of Information: www.baa.co.uk

The terminal building at Edinburgh

EDI from above

The ATC tower at EDI

A Norwegian Air Shuttle Boeing 737 at EDI

The view over the Forth after take-off from EDI

Thank you for viewing! Please comment and discuss! Next update busses and then onto architecture!

Large Visitor Globe

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[nighthawk117 0]

Considering you are from Scotland, you would think you would know how to spell Edinburgh... it's even written in many of the photos you have captioned!

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Does anyone have anything constructive or good to add? All this nit picking is giving me a negative vibe, I do accept constructive criticism but some of the tones I'm getting seem to be a bit well, annoying. Gees, I'm sorry that I am not an encyclopaedia, almanac and dictionary all rolled into one, and I'm sorry that my spelling is terrible, that's just me. Maybe someone would like to say something actually related to the topic? I'm sorry for contributing to the forum and if I'm not welcome then I'll withdraw my material.

[TekindusT 3,809]

I didn't knew the Concorde had reached Glasgow... I guess it was on an exhibition flight...

[clarkjordan12345 108]

No, there were scheduled flights to Prestwick for quite some time, my mum said she used to see it take-off from Prestwick several times a week, I just wish I had been old enough to have seen it!

[antsel 841]

I haven't been to Glasgow, but I have traveled through on the way to Kilmarnock from Edinburgh. One thing that surprised me is the freeway that travels right through the city. Being from Edinburgh, the only freeway we have is the city bypass.

[clarkjordan12345 108]

well yes, the M8 is an engineering marvel. Where are you from?

[clarkjordan12345 108]

 Stadiums: 

In Glasgow, there is several large stadiums, all of which are used for football (soccer).  Glasgow's history with football is a rollercoaster of a story, from stadium disasters to violent clashes between fans.  Here are the main stadia in the city:

Ibrox:  

Location: Ibrox, close to the river Clyde

First opened: 1899

Capacity: 51,082 (all seated)

Description: Home to Premier and top-flight European side, Glasgow Rangers.  This is one of the most historical stadiums in the United Kingdom and is a listed building (can't be demolished).  It is the third largest stadium in Glasgow and is the third largest UEFA certified stadium in the United Kingdom after Old Trafford (Manchester) and Wembley (London). In 1902, 25 people died and 517 were injured when a stand collapsed in the ground caused by heavy rainfall.  In Winter, 1971, at an Old Firm match between Rangers and Celtic, on the 89th minute Celtic scored taking them to 1-0.  This lead to many Rangers supporters leaving the stadium early, however, there was a shock in store as Colin Stein scored an equaliser, however, there was already a large number of fans in the stairways with more and more fans piling in in high spirits.  The weight of the supporters however, caused stairway 13 to give way causing a huge chain reaction and a pile-up of supporters.  The tragedy took the lives of 66 people, many of which were children, and over 200 people were injured.  Most of the fatalities were due to Compressive Asphyxia, or suffocation as it's more commonly known.  The piles of bodies were as deep as 2 metres in some places.  The reason why this happened was because of fans who had already left the building racing back in after hearing the crown erupting after the equaliser, clashing with fans who were leaving due to the game being finished.  A major revamp of the stadium was the result of that horrific day.

Ibrox from the air

Ibrox within the surrounding area

The main stand at Ibrox

Around 45,000 home fans at a European match show their loyalty to the union

The aftermath of the 1971 Ibrox disaster

Next Stadium: Celtic Park! I'll update the post later. Please comment and discuss!

[antsel 841]

Originally I'm from Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada. I moved to Edinburgh in the fall for school.

Ibrox looks like a pretty sweet Stadium. You say it first opened in 1899, that's an old stadium! I imagine they've refurbished it several times, because it does have some modern qualities to it. Do you have any information on what they've added to it since it originally opened?

[TekindusT 3,809]

It's sad to see how always (and everywhere) something really bad has to happen to make the authorities react to change a thing that's malfunctioning.

Can't wait to see Celtic Park!

[exc12 1]

looking very inpresive , as resident of this great city and totally agree with lack of scottish stuff

didn't know about subway extension but the article you linked also talks about Glasgow Airport link which has been scrapped so

there is also the clyde side express way on the north bank

look forward to more posts

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

@Selles: Yes the stadium is pretty old, over the years there has been dozens of refurbishments and additions to the stadium, you should refer to the wikipedia page if you want an in depth look at the developments. Basically, the stadium you see today took shape in the 1960s when the stadium was changed from an oval shape to the box shape we have now. Also, a whole new stand was built in the 70s after the second disaster, I think it was the Copeland Road Stand (on the right of the first picture) although it's quite complex, maybe I'll go into more detailed later in the thread.

@TekindusT: Yes it's tragic, but I don't think you could predict something like that, it would be the building contractors fault if anything. Also I think something similar happened at Celtic Park due to the all standing stands, I'm not sure though, I'll have to look that one up and I'll add it into the Celtic Park post.

@exc12: Thanks, maybe you could add some stuff of your own to the thread if you want. And I'm still not sure about the subway expansion, I'm 100% sure it was planned at the start but maybe it has been cancelled, who knows? I'll keep my eye on the news.

[diamonddog_74 32]

The most interesting thing I've learned from this thread is that the railroads in the UK are privatized. I didn't know that.

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Is that a complement or an insult? xD

[diamonddog_74 32]

Originally posted by: clarkjordan12345

Is that a complement or an insult? xDquote>

Neither. I liked your entire rail reportage, but that was the thing that struck me as very interesting.

The passenger railroads were owned by private sector companies here in the US originally, but they all went bankrupt with the virulent adoption of the automobile by private citizens. Of course, they're still bankrupt because in the US public transportation is not a priority. It's quite sad, really.

[clarkjordan12345 108]

ah, thanks! If you're interested in our railways, this will tickle your fancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_Report It explains a lot.

[clarkjordan12345 108]

Sorry I've not touched on this much lately, but I am picking it back up now.  In this update I will show you all Celtic Park, the second stadium of the three I will be giving you insight into.  Being a Rangers fan, you might see some bias in this, however, I wont lie or anything, don't worry xD

So here we go...

Celtic Park: 

Location:  Parkhead, East Glasgow

First Opened: 1982

Capacity:  61,000

Description: Home ground of Glasgow Celtic, the other half of the Old Firm along with Rangers, both teams dominate the Premier League each year with little or no chance of any other team clinching the cup.  The stadium was opened in 1982 but at the time was little more than a small wooden stand with the pitch.  It has seen a lot of renovation since then and is now the largest football stadium in Scotland.  The largest ever attendance was in 1938, when Celtic were playing Rangers in front of almost 93,000 spectators.

An aerial shot of the ground today

Inside the stadium on a European night

A picture of what the stadium looked like in 1984

The trophy room.  Note that it is a lot smaller than the one at Ibrox xD

Kenny Miller of Rangers scoring against his old club at Celtic park taking the score to 4-2.

Thanks for reading, next update will be about Hampden Park, the national team stadium.

Please discuss!

[TekindusT 3,809]

93,000 spectators?! I guess this was when watching the matches standing was allowed; but it keeps being a very impressing number considering the size of this stadium...

[clarkjordan12345 108]

lol, I saw Barcelona on the little globe and I knew it was you xD and remember, hat was in the days when it was merely a wooden stand! but Ibrox has a larger highest attendance, It was around 140,000, that was when the stadiums were just massive oval bowl shapes.