California's Prop 19 discussion thread

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

This is the thread to talk about prop 19 in california, which will legalize marajana for recreational use for anyone over 21.I heard that it could help solve my state's budgets crises.I want to know what you ST members want to say about it.

Rules:

1)No spam

2)No attacking someone for what they think about this issue.

3)Stay on topic

4)No flame or cussing. Keep it PG-13.

If I left out a rule(s) can a mod please add them to this post?

Anyways, lets start with my opinion:

I think that governments should find better ways to make money then this, because marajuana isn't healthy.

[p_kitaro 0]

 I'm for it.

My reason's not because it's safe (heck weed is worse than smoking itself) or it would make money (I'm sure Cali can make 10 times more $ with movies than weed) but it's because of what we have to learn from history.  Prohibition in the 1920s taught us that we cannot illegalize anything.

Personally, I can't stop fussing over how "moral activist" (particularly those from the more conservative wing) make the claim that government shouldn't be up in our business, yet they can banter on how government should jail us for years just for holding an ounce of ganja.

Take a look at Amsterdam, they still don't fully legalize weed (sorry for spoiling the fun) but they give some extent of use to the so-called "coffee shops".  They have a place where the cafe owners can monitor and regulate weed safely, giving weed users a social area, void of crack and meth users.  No more do you have to scrounge around to find a shady crack-head dealer in the back alleys anymore.

I'm for legalizing marijuana as it:

-Allows weed smokers a safe environment to practice.

-Prevents weed from becoming a gateway drug to hard drugs.

-Prevents marijuana from being profitable to drug cartels (think Mexico and Juarez)

We end up demeaning such a drug that gets more hype for what it's worth.

If we can endure the cancer and car accidents cause by tobacco and alcohol, then it's somewhat hypocritical of us to be so touchy on marijuana.

[Larks2242 251]

Well i don't live in CA so it really dosen't affect me, but i can agree with p_kitaro. I believe its the persons choice to do whatever they want, however the end result isn't always good.

[Duke87 1,070]

Note: there is already a thread on the broader subject of "legalization".

On this particular case... What I don't understand is how California has the authority to do this, considering that regulations on controlled substances (including drug bans) are a matter of federal law.

[p_kitaro 0]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Note: there is already a thread on the broader subject of "legalization".

On this particular case... What I don't understand is how California has the authority to do this, considering that regulations on controlled substances (including drug bans) are a matter of federal law.

quote>

I might be wrong on this (I ain't no law expert) but to my knowledge, the feds have the ability to prosecute on all jurisdictions, but the state has the ability to say yea or nay to state enforcement.

In this case, Cal's able to legalize the use of marijuana for rec. purposes, thus repealing the state enforcement on banning marijuana.  The feds on the other had still have the ability to prosecute drug users, as it crosses fed. law, but without the help of state enforcement, then it's really gonna suck for the feds.

Basically, It's still technically illegal to use marijuana, but it's a d*mn sight easier to do it.  The feds essentially "turn a blind eye" on small-time offenders and focus on the big-timers, or if the state DA decides to turns the offenders over to the feds.  The only thing I can think of that can bar this legislation is if the court or S. court decides otherwise.

(sigh) What a country we live in...

[Ocram's Razr 964]

There needs to be more research into the negative side affects of the THC, GBD, Tar, CO, canabinoids and additives. Once thorough research has been conducted, then for all I care, sell low strength Marijuana (or Tobacco/Cannabis combos) and prescribe stronger varieties (I believe it is called Chronic) if it proves that low dosage of THC and cannabinoids is as safe as the dosage of Nicotine found in cigarettes and that high dosages are a safe painkiller/appetite stimulator/whatever.

Until then, Marijuana should remain illegal.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Im  for  Prop 19.

I dont however think it will solve californias money problems.

It will just give them more  money to waste on what ever they waste money on now.

We do need to think ahead on this issue, pertaining to who grows, packedges and distributes it.

the tobacco companies will be ones who will probably have control of this aspect of it.

Would it be legal to grow your own? If so how much could you grow?

It will be hard to justify your harvesting of more then one or 2 plants for personal use.

I guess  it dependis on how much the plants produce.

BTW is it legal to grow your own tobacco? its a controled substance.

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, legalization gets it out of the rackets, but the enforcement of how it is legalized is going to be a nightmare for Californias equivalent of the DEA.  I suppose it will be regulated like alcohol and  you would need a license to grow it even for personal use.

Once the fever pitch of users dies down, there is probably going to be a steady use level that will generally be no trouble.  After five years, it will be just another thing to get high on.

Because of the anti-racketeering issue, I am somewhat for it.

[Muck308 55]

Originally posted by: Ilikeseattle

There needs to be more research into the negative side affects of the THC, GBD, Tar, CO, canabinoids and additives. Once thorough research has been conducted, then for all I care, sell low strength Marijuana (or Tobacco/Cannabis combos) and prescribe stronger varieties (I believe it is called Chronic) if it proves that low dosage of THC and cannabinoids is as safe as the dosage of Nicotine found in cigarettes and that high dosages are a safe painkiller/appetite stimulator/whatever.

Until then, Marijuana should remain illegal.quote>

Nicotine is poison. There is no safe way of consuming it that I am aware of.

Studies have shown that traditional methods of smoking pot can be unhealthy. This is a no-brainer as smoking anything will lead to lung problems. The plus side is that the effects of smoking can be undone. Your body (once you have stopped smoking whatever it is you smoke and more importantly continue not to smoke) will expel the tar residue from your lungs over time. Depending on how long you have smoked, this could take as long as a decade or more. As long as lung cancer doesn't set in, you can reverse the damage done.

As far as non-traditional methods go, the healthiest way to "smoke" is with a vaporizer. Using a bong or other type of water pipe is healthier than using pipes or smoking joints and blunts.

If legalized, I severly doubt that "low strength" as you put it, marijuana would be readily available. That's the crap that gets shipped in from Mexico. California has been on the forefront of growing techniques for many years so you would surely find "high grade" marijuana readily available. (The chronic you speak of is actually a term for pot that has been laced with angel dust: a term that has long since been diluted and as such, means different things depending on where you are. It's become a regional thing.)

The plus side to smoking high grade marijuana is that you need not nearly enough to get the desired effect. The less you smoke, the healthier you remain. Expect to find good quality pot on the market if this passes. Mexican dirt weed may very well remain, but expect a huge drop off. The price of good quality pot is expected to go from ~$380/ounce to ~$38/ounce. In other words, a %90 decrease. This is just what I've heard so it's purely speculative, but prices will go down and thus, the market for the crap from Mexico will significantly diminish.

I support the legalisation of marijuana. The issue for me is how the tax revenue gets spent. If the money is going toward benefitting the residents in a way they can agree upon (good luck by the way), it is certainly a great idea. However, should the revenue be spent unwisely, then the proposition certainly loses it's luster.

EDIT: Prop 19 if you care to read it.

It states that driving while under the influence would still be illegal. I wonder how law enforcement intends to prove when a person is under the influence. It can remain in your blood for quite some time, so the only I see someone getting busted for dui of marijuana is if they are visibly intoxicated. This sounds like a mess waiting to happen with much of the money spent on the court system that they hope to send elsewhere ending up in the same place it is now.

[sneakeypete 16]

Random drug tests seem to work here, exactly the same as random breath tests. Except testing for drugs with a different method.

Oh, that kind of thing is a grey area on your constitution. hmm

[Mikeaut1 261]

Interesting discussion.

I am for the legalization. I think it has the opportunity to raise revenue in states, and if other states look towards the issue of legalization, it could actually effect the economy postively. I think because many people smoke pot as it is, its legalization could boost the US economy significantly. I saw a few posts in here that say Marijuana smoke is more dangerous for your body than tobacco smoke. This is untrue, there have been studies that show cigarettes and cigars contain more carcinogens and toxic chemicals than cannabis. So this relates to legalization in the fact that, even though it isn't necessarily a healthy practice, it could be legalized, taxed, and controlled... just as alcohol is.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Speaking of quality, I have been told that the highest quality marijuana comes from the growers in and around Vancouver.  This would provide us with a nice export market should we decide to legalize growth of the plants.  I gather that the domestic market is well supplied.  And of course there is always the cachet of imported "stuff".

[blade2k5 1,523]

Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

Speaking of quality, I have been told that the highest quality marijuana comes from the growers in and around Vancouver.  This would provide us with a nice export market should we decide to legalize growth of the plants.  I gather that the domestic market is well supplied.  And of course there is always the cachet of imported "stuff".

quote>

I just watched a program on the Nat Geo channel the other night and one grower and seed supplier is said to have the best grade pot in the world.  I think it's all a matter of preference, regional and/or what grades you've had tried.  Living in California while growing up in the 70s, Tai Stick and Purple Hair Sense was the best you could get, in NYC in the 80's it was Monkey Paw [one hit and you were stoned for hours], in Detroit circa '85-'86, it was Panama Red, here in Wisconsin, it's Skunk Bud [you can smell this stuff from a 100 yards away and it's very, very sticky].

As for legalization, I'm all for it and it is long, long overdue.  There's no doubt that the tide is swinging in favor of legalization.  I give it another 20-25 years and in most States, it will be legal.  I see no reason why it can't be regulated like cigerettes and alcohol.

[fabricio83tst 28]

I'm agree with the legalition of marijuana, for enjoy and medical use.

[Larks2242 251]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

BTW is it legal to grow your own tobacco? its a controled substance.

 

quote>

I don't see how its not, i think some garden stores sell tobacco plants.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Well, be darned. [Talking while darning a white maple leaf on the back of a red sweat jacket]

ETA: Well, what about Cannabis sativa vs Cannabis indica (which has anti-psychotic properties) for what is preffered or legal?

A high dosage of THC or a moderately high dosage over a prolonged period of time increases the likelyhood and severity of psychotic episodes. GBD decreases this likelyhood and depending on the ration of GBD to THC, the combination could decreases the likelyhood of psycotic episodes (as compared to the general abstaining population). GBD alone should be marketed as an antipsycotic but the USA currently classifies it as Schedule I (while THC is Schedule II). GBD is not addictive and no other countries classify it as Schedule I (the international panel classifies it as Schedule IV while THC is Schedule III).

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

Din't someone say who doesnot(In the state as a whole) want marajana legalized?

[Slashback 136]

I am against legalization of marihuana, and there are tons of reasons why.

Just to point out some:

- Smoking is unhealthy to you and your surroundings.

- If you smoke marihuana every day, your body is constantly affected, and that can e.g. affect your driving.

- Marihuana can be a way to hard drugs, legal or not.

- Marhuana is a drug. That is a fact, and it might not as dangerous as LSD or cocaine, but it is still a drug which affects your body and your brain.

But I'm from a different part of the world, and my opinions reflects that. Where I live; if someone goes to the hospital, the state pays for the treatment. That's also the reason that we have many restrictions regarding smoking. If a large group of people gets cancer, it's very expensive for the society. And if smoking is the reason (which it actually is here in Denmark), then it will have a positive effect on the economy, if smoking gets regulated and banned from public places and (it might seem crazy to you Americans) restaurants, bars and cafes.

But it is different in USA. The state doesn't pay for the medical treatment, so it's your own problem if you get cancer because of smoking.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Actually, in Washington State, we banned smoking in public places. We also have strict laws against all forms of drunk driving (including driving while buzzed, high, or under the influence of prescription drugs that warn against driving). Because of this administration's "Health Care Reform" the country will soon start paying a part of insurance.

[sneakeypete 16]

Originally posted by: ImVhOzzi

I am against legalization of marihuana, and there are tons of reasons why.

Just to point out some:

- Smoking is unhealthy to you and your surroundings.

- If you smoke marihuana every day, your body is constantly affected, and that can e.g. affect your driving.

- Marihuana can be a way to hard drugs, legal or not.

- Marhuana is a drug. That is a fact, and it might not as dangerous as LSD or cocaine, but it is still a drug which affects your body and your brain.

quote>

Even though i'm netural/anti legalization, you could say the exact same thing about Booze. Unhealthy, if you drink it all the time you'll be effected all the time, way to harder drugs, and it is a drug too.

[Slashback 136]

^ Nothing is healthy if you get too much of it, and let me explain a difference between booze and illegal drugs:

You won't be affected if you drink a beer or two.

You could die from taking a pill or two.

That is quite simple.

Marihuana might be a lighter drug, but it still affects your body in a harder way than the same aumont of booze would do.

But I agree that alcohol can lead into hard drugs. Booze doesn't affect your surroundings (directly), but if you smoke a cigaret or a joint, your surroundings will inhalate the smoke too.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[blade2k5 1,523]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: ImVhOzzi

I am against legalization of marihuana, and there are tons of reasons why.

Just to point out some:

- Smoking is unhealthy to you and your surroundings.quote>

You do not have to smoke marijuana to benefit from its effects.  Regardless, why should your dislike of the health impact mean that everyone else has to respect it?  Decide for your own body, not for others.

- If you smoke marihuana every day, your body is constantly affected, and that can e.g. affect your driving.quote>

I'm not worried about a pothead going 30 mi/hr getting into an accident.  Better to worry about the alcoholic that hit him.

- Marihuana can be a way to hard drugs, legal or not.quote>

This is a lie of propaganda.  Alchohol and tobacco are the true gateway drugs.  So are prescription drugs.  I would be 100x more concerned if my daughter started drinking than if she smoked a joint at a party.  I would be extremely sad if she started smoking tobacco.  I can tell you right now it is the alcohol that would be the priority.  People are prone to alcohol abuse, but never pot (ever, folks, read your case studies).  A drinker is highly likely to make a very bad decision (beer goggles, anyone - driving, anyone?), but this does not apply to weed, mainly because the pothead is going to really think about that proposition.  Who knows, 5 minutes later they may have forgotten about it, lol.

- Marhuana is a drug. That is a fact, and it might not as dangerous as LSD or cocaine, but it is still a drug which affects your body and your brain.quote>

So does ibuprofen.  Or look at what Ambien does to a person.  So does the sugar you eat (diabetes, anyone?).  You see, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't buy it.  I do not proscribe to this idea that because something is bad for you it should be illegal.  Here's a wacky example:  I do not support helmet laws for adults.  It is unsafe to bike without a helmet, but I am NOT going to force someone to do it (right now, I think most, if not all, US states have helmet laws).

But I'm from a different part of the world, and my opinions reflects that. Where I live; if someone goes to the hospital, the state pays for the treatment. That's also the reason that we have many restrictions regarding smoking. If a large group of people gets cancer, it's very expensive for the society. And if smoking is the reason (which it actually is here in Denmark), then it will have a positive effect on the economy, if smoking gets regulated and banned from public places and (it might seem crazy to you Americans) restaurants, bars and cafes.

But it is different in USA. The state doesn't pay for the medical treatment, so it's your own problem if you get cancer because of smoking.quote>

Good intentions aren't necessarily the best solution.

Barbarossaquote>

You and I actually agree on a few things, especially what you just posted.  The nonsense that weed leeds to harder drugs is nothing more than a myth perpetrated by governments backed up by studies done under bias against the drug to fit their lies.  Alcohol is far more dangerous than weed and yet it's legal.  More people are killed due to alcohol abuse than those by marijuana.  And to the person who said a beer or two doesn't affect you, that's a bunch of hogwash.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: blade2k5

Alcohol is far more dangerous than weed and yet it's legal.quote>

Making alcohol illegal did not work.  Making marijuana illegal isn't working either.

[blade2k5 1,523]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: blade2k5

Alcohol is far more dangerous than weed and yet it's legal.quote>

Making alcohol illegal did not work.  Making marijuana illegal isn't working either.quote>

Part of my point I was trying to make.  Governments are never going to be able to stamp out marijuana use, just like they weren't able to stamp out alcohol consumption, so making it illegal is rather pointless.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

imo, the long term health of the US depends on a strong Mexico, and a strong Mexico depends on getting the drug stuff under control. I think marijuana is dumb, but legalizing it might leave the US better off.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

I'm not worried about a pothead going 30 mi/hr getting into an accident.  Better to worry about the alcoholic that hit him.quote>

What about the pothead driving 90mph in a neighborhood?  These people exist too.

This is a lie of propaganda.  Alchohol and tobacco are the true gateway drugs.quote>

I've never met a person who got involved in "hard drugs" because of alcohol or tobacco.  I have, however, met people who have gotten into harder drugs as a result of marijuana use.

People are prone to alcohol abuse, but never pot (ever, folks, read your case studies).quote>

This is absolute nonsense.  People get addicted to marijuana just like any other drug.  Admittedly, it may not have the addiction rates of many other drugs, but people get addicted to marijuana nonetheless.

A drinker is highly likely to make a very bad decision (beer goggles, anyone - driving, anyone?), but this does not apply to weed, mainly because the pothead is going to really think about that proposition.quote>

Which might be a vaild argument if it weren't for the fact that a lot of people loss their ability to reason while high, so they are just as likely to arrive at a bad decision as a drunk person.  In this regard, alcohol might actually be safer than marijuana; the mass public is aware of the dangers of intoxication, but there still seems to be widespread misbelief that marijuana is totally safe.

Marijuana has legitimate arguments for legalization, but at the same time, people who believe that there are no risks associated with marijuana use are deluding themselves.  Any time you are dealing with something that is capable of altering a person's perception of the world around them (which marijuana is capable of doing), you have to accept that there are inescapable risks associated with that compound.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

Marijuana has legitimate arguments for legalization, but at the same time, people who believe that there are no risks associated with marijuana use are deluding themselves.  quote>

Can't argue with that.

Any time you are dealing with something that is capable of altering a person's perception of the world around them (which marijuana is capable of doing), you have to accept that there are inescapable risks associated with that compound.quote>

There are inescapable risks associated with any drug even "safe" ones like aspirin and caffeine. 

(If you wonder if caffeine is a drug, try defining the word "drug" so that it doesn't include caffeine.)

Granted, it depends on the medical condition of the person using the drug.  I know one person who started oozing blood from every mucous membrane after a week of taking a low dose aspirin every day.  and other who can't drink caffeine without having her heart start racing.

Truth is, a drug that is safe for one person might not be safe for another.  so, yes, all drugs carry some risk.