mipro Barry Sanders Project

[Skyscraper Designer 0]

Thanks for the compliments!

As for what happened to downtown Detroit...well, that is long and complex. Some of the other people here should be able to help me out. Basically, as the Detroit metro decentralized, and the focus of both businesses and residents was shifted from the city to the suburbs, low budget businesses moved into downtown. Finally, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, even the lower wealth businesses moved out of downtown. Basically the entire thing collapsed, as business after business left. The more businesses that left, the less pedestrian traffic was outside the remaining businesses, and they too eventually closed. The 1960s riots, and the high murder rates in the 70s and 80s did not leave a favorable impession on Detroit, and the city suffered even more. During the early 1990s, around the time downtown totally collapsed, there were plans in place to fill up nearly every single vancant space downtown. This would've helped to bring the city back, but then the recession occured. Projects like Two Detroit Center (Comerica's tiwn tower) were canceled.

Finally, in the late 1990s, dowtown began to come back. Residential projects were beging built for the first time in decades. Slowly, residents began to trickle into downtown and midtown after being practically vacant for so long. GM's decision to buy the Renaissance Center, and Compuware's decision to build it's world headquarters helped bring people back downtown again. During this time, Comerica Park and Ford Field were both constructed downtown. All of these projects spurred residential projects, mostly converting old vacant building into residential uses. As more residents followed, so did some businesses. Recently, Hard Rock Cafe opened in Detroit. While not much, it is symbolic, in that a major chain opened a location in downtown Detroit. Borders books has also opened. A small grocery store will open in the Compuware building to serve the new downtown residents. Additionally, there have been a ton of restaurants opening up, and even a small clothing store. Slowly, but surely, Detroit is coming back. There are currently just over 5000 downtown residents, and somewhere between 75,000 and 80,000 downtown office workers (or so I've heard). Obviously Detroit has many problems to overcome, and it won't be easy, but I am confident that Detroit will rebound. It seems that there are several downtown improvements announced in the newspaper every week. That is a good sign, and hopefully the best is yet to come!

[wolverine 12]

Very nice pictures skyscraper designer!  These are great.  I hope you won't mind adding a few to the new website later.  What the heck happened to the Madison.  I see a new building going up on its place!  Perhaps I never paid much attention to that spot.

 

Oh and I don't know many poeple in the Detroit area who like Illitch.  So I guess there is a general consensus that he is an $%&^!, or asshat as they would say at Detroityes.com

 

I'm going to talk to Dirk about getting this thread embedded on the webpage. 

Edit, I will just build a frame with this thread below so you can access all parts of ST within the webpage. But I will still talk to Dirk!

So that it can be accessed in all directions.  The reason I feel a website is necessary is that we can have a list of projects and progress updates listed in one single place instead of having to modify stuff all over the thread.  Plus, the whole thing seems more like a longterm project.  I already have begun making it, though I'm not showing previews till it's done.  All I need is some permission from some people.

Skyscraper designer, may I borrow a few of your photos?

Farminism, can you email me your model in GMax?  I don't care if it's incomplete. 

You can email it to my bulk address of

send-to-couzens@umich.edu

If you started over, just send me the old one.  I'm just making an animation at the beginning so the site can at least look presentable. I look forward to getting this underway. 

 

A lot has happened in this thread while I was gone.  Exams have been going well for me, except that I got stranded up at North Campus and had to do the 40 minute walk back to central campus. 

 

Look forward to seeing more progress on the Barry Sanders Project

 

PAGE SEVEN!!

 

[hogmeister 7]

Thanks skyscraper for the update on what

[DARKO 3]

Yes Detroits story is somewhat complex and sadly misunderstood, especially from out-of-towners.  If you really want to know what happened to the city of Detroit one book explains it the best and truest way than ever before, Origins of Urban Crisis by Thomas Sagrue.  The sad thing is everyone under 40 thinks the city has always been like this, which is very sad to say the least considering the city was the third largest at one point and top 5 for sometine population wise.  It was truly a beautiful city, radial streets, parkways, greenery..etc.  Detroit was the model for what cities should like in the early ninteenth century it is very hard to even imagine that, but at one time Detroit was the city to be, like your seattles,portlands and san frans now, its a shame everything all these people before us did too make this such a great city had everything destroyed, the more people read up thier history books the more they'll realize the decimation that was done, but i strongly feel more than at any point in time the people of Detroit long for the old days, people here are just sick of it, they want change and are doing it. i'm glad I can be apart of it and hope 50 years from now my grandkids will look back at this time frame and be stunned the city was ever as bad as it has been, just like people who lived during its heyday are stunned to see the city as how it stands today.  One race can't run a city, thats pretty evident, this is the biggest hurdle of them all untill that happens i can't say Detroit is truly back

[budweiserdude23 80]

Okay, here we go....First off to Darko, I'm under 40, I'm 26 and I know many others here that post are under 40 and we are enlightened to the plight if Detroit. I agree that a minority of people under 40 have a true understanding of what happened to Detroit from the time it was settled to present day, esp. from 1950 on. History books only convey so much, and as far as I know not too many schools teach Michigan/Detroit history. However, the minority of us that do understand probably long for the Detroit of the past...heck just the population decline within the last 50 years is appauling. I'm not ranting on you, just letting you know that some of us still care. I was born here and will live here to the day I die. There's no where else on Earth I'd rather be.

To Skyscraper...I agree the riots considerably contributed to the decline of Detroit. Many businesses that were scarred were never re-built and moved to the burbs or simply ceased to exist, that alone is one heck of a hit in your tax base. But I must say that Coleman Young has to be the single greatest factor in the overall decline of Detroit. He was a racist bigot who shot off at the mouth too often, much too often. He told big business to agree w/ his policies or to kiss his ass...obviosly we know what happened...big business moved out of downtown. The population decline was created by his administration. When there's no pop. you have no income being generated by the city, city services fail, so on and so on,,,,a big domino effect. You can't create a piece of gold from the turd he laid on this city overnight..its gonna take time.

Boy I hope no one feels like I'm ranting on them, in actuality I'm agreeing with you.

But I do have one small rant, DetroitInc you posted earlier and you made it sound like we were saying that the old train depot should be torn down. Far from it. I used it as an example of the architecture that was being preserved and stated that if that building can be preserved in the terrible shape that it is in, then other buildings can be saved as well, instead of suffering the fate of a wrecking ball. Please read in more detail before getting upset.

[budweiserdude23 80]

BTW, I thought I'd put this in a new post since its way off topic from my last...has anyone looked at the Detroit map on the exchange? Whats your opinion of it? I think it may be off scale a little too much for my taste. It's close in theory but seems to be missing a little too much.

[DARKO 3]

Wowsers i think you misunderstood me.

 

I'm 24 myself and totally agree with you but the sad truth is most people under 40 have no clue, they have lived in the suburbs thier whole lives, the only time they come downtown is to go to wings games or greektown. I gave the age 40 because that is sorta the cut-off line of when people last actually grew up in the city around here, at least if you are white and from the area. 

 

 Origins of Urban Crisis was written in 98' and won the bancroft award, it is the best written account of Detroit ever written. History books do convey only so much, thats why this book was written, it tells the true story of what lead to the decline and the decentralization of the city, not the stories your mom or grandfather told you(the racially biased ones).  I was really talking about people not from here, who are our age, why would a 24 year old kid in Boston, or San Deigo care about Detroits history??? If all they have known about the city since they were born were riots,murders, kid rock, and eminem.  Sorry, If it sounds like I'm ranting now   All i ws saying is the image of Detroit is not th emost popular with people a bit younger, and for good reasons, trust me i want to change that, thats why I'am going to UM for urban design/planning

[wolverine 12]

Date: 4/20/2004 12:11:45 AM

Author: budweiserdude23

BTW, I thought I'd put this in a new post since its way off topic from my last...has anyone looked at the Detroit map on the exchange? Whats your opinion of it? I think it may be off scale a little too much for my taste. It's close in theory but seems to be missing a little too much.

I think DuskTrooper tried to make it using a satellite imaging program or something like that, which generates a grayscale, which generates a SimCity region.  POr else he used the thing at SimCity.com  The problem is, the resources he used, and we all use are limited and they can only do so much with accuracy.  The shape of the map is correct, but the scale is off.  In fact, nothing in SimCity is up to scale.  The roads are far too large for the buildings surrounding them.  If there is a more precise way to generate an accurate map, I will try to take this on unless someone here at ST. is very experienced with doing that stuff.

By the way, SimCity.com's terrain generator does not do islands on rivers.

I'm 19, 20 in July and I feel I'm the only one my age who understands Detroit's past.  Although I grew up far from Detroit, I always had an interest in architecture and the few visits to Detroit when I was young only brought on an impression that buildings looked incredible downtown, thus Detroit was an awesome city.  When I began to make more frequent visits later on, reality set in that the city had cool buildings, but most were empty, and things in Detroit were not all that great.  From there, my interest of Detroit took on by itself.  I had a strange side hobby of looking through history books of the city at Borders books and streaming through hundreds of websites about its history.  It is incredible how great times were just before the 1950's  I know that when Northland Mall was built, no one knew that there was going to be a massive exodous from the city and that there was going to be serious racial turmoil, although constantly brewing.  I have struggled to convince my friends that the city does have more potenital,  far more, than the cities me and my friends have grown up around such as Flint and Saginaw.  The city has a bad rep. and unfortuantely the public outside the Detroit area has the idea that the city is bad, and anything there is bad.  I have several college friends that live in the city and my old high school friends are shocked that I even associate with such people. 

My research and my pride (despite not living there) is not an obsessive hobby.  I just think there is wonderful architecture there and potential to develop.  I know the few projects downtown will eventually cause a take-off of commercial and residential development.  And there are so many success stories going on Downtown, it is not hard to Say Good Things About Detroit.

[budweiserdude23 80]

Gotcha, I may have misunderstood slightly...when you start typing sometimes your fingers can't keep up with you mind, I think were on the same page. I definitely agree on the Kid Rock, Eminem thing. That's probably the most used description outsiders give to Detroit. You know, if you ever go on vacation somewhere and say your from Detroit, you notice that most take a step back and many ask how can you live there? Uneducated people who have opinions on something they have no idea about make me angry! If someone were to ask me about Alberquerque and I said well it sucks because its hot and drunks live there, isn't that the same kind of mentality, since I have no true knowledge of Alberquerque...isn't that where Bugs Bunny always made a wrong left turn too...LOL...just using a random city to prove a point! So yes, we are on the same page and we are not the stereotypical people you think of when it comes to Detroit..but we'll kick your ass if it makes you feel better....Go Detroit...and for that matter Go Michigan!!!!!!!!!!!

[budweiserdude23 80]

You've got some good points wolverine. Guess I'm asking for too much for a program with a few too many bugs (although I still love it). And yes, all the scaling in the game is off. Shoulda known better. You know speaking of roads, man I'm developing a new region and I noticed how complex of a transit system you must have to get good mayor ratings and a good population. I think its a little too much emphasis on transit and too little on lots, good thing they released the BAT.

[DARKO 3]

Too bad we really can't truly recreate Detroit, the downtown is a bunch of Radial streets, and since we can't have buildings line up on diagnols it just isn't the same  I can't wait for the day when that can happen.

 

As for that map yeah its way off, we would have to make a huge map to cover the tri-county area, would take over an hour to load the puppy up, like those huge la regions people have made.  Oh i long for the day of irregular shaped maps and larger sizes

[wolverine 12]

Speaking of roads again, it is now possible to create a road system of the likes of Grand Circus park and have the buildings arranged in a circle around it.  There is a BAT submission thread and the kind folks there will network enable any roads we place on the lots.  There is a building from Buffalo somewhere here in the forums that did just that.

 

EDIT: Late post.  YES, we can create radial streets with buildings that fit perfectly in those spaces now.

 

ANOTHER EDIT:  It appears I'm a citizen now in ranking.  Simtropolis should alter all our rankings to something Michigan related. 

[DARKO 3]

really, wow thats great, what thread is this??

[budweiserdude23 80]

DARKO, have you seen the original post, it has been edited to give the details of the question you asked. I agree with you wolverine, we should have our rankings adjusted by them but to what?

[wolverine 12]

Let me clarify slightly.  Roads CAN be directed at certain angles that are not capable in the game using the BAT.  We can't do actual curves.  Well...we can, but it would take some time and this project is not ready for it.  However, we can put buildings on square lots, place road textures on them in any way we like, and have them network enabled.  For example.  Suppose we have a triagle shaped building.  We can put roads on all three sides up against the building forming a triangle block and have cars drive on them. 

There is no thread that states this can be done.  It kind of just happened in a project.  Type in Buffalo or Mohawk in the search box, and you should come up with the building that had this done to it.

 

EDIT:  Suggesting a change in rankings was kind of a joke.  There was a thread about this but the administration was annoyed of the idea.  They based their reasoning on the fact that if they allowed a few people to request changes to their ranks, the whole community would be making requests.

[mayorcwf 3]

some suggestions for the Project:

Big Boy restuant (an great example is the one on Gratiot and 9 Mile where the Big Boy is on the sign).

the Defunct Gratiot Drive in in Roseville (Sims love Drive ins, so give them one with class)

the Old JL Hudson Dept. Store in Downtown Detroit (In its heyday)

the DIA (Detroit institute of Arts)

the Old GM Building (complete with GENERAL MOTORS on the top of the Building)

the 1872 Erin Schoolhouse (on 9 Mile in Eastpointe)

now i wish Maxis could make the depressed (below Ground) freeways that Detroit have. Execpt for I-75 at the Rouge Bridge, no freeway in Detroit is Above ground.

[wolverine 12]

Shall I add depressed freeways to the project as well?  The ability to construct depressed freeways with concrete pull-back walls is possilbe.  New overpasses that extend from wall to wall, or hill to hill can be done with modding.  Someone did it with a railroad bridge.  That project is still in its infancy, but possible.

 

Man!  If Barry Sanders came to this site and saw the reply sidebar.  What would he think!!

 

Okay I need to go to bed now or I swear I am going to sleep in and miss my exam tomorrow.

[budweiserdude23 80]

To mayor, some of those are on the list already, please refer to the original post or Click here to see it. Some aren't on there as well. Big Boys is a good idea, as are a few others but no drive-in. There's already some on the exchange and and in game, we don't need another, they're similar enough in looks and function that it does not need to be included in our idea list. Thank for the suggestions.

I see the roads, we could make it work I think...

EDIT---Barry might be a little confused at first, then if he looked at the original post he might be pissed...lol. Go look at the update on it and you'll see why!

[wolverine 12]

I don't picture him as the guy to get ticked off.  Hope he doesn't mind being in the new site's logo.  If he does, we can just paint over him with a picture of the Stanley cup, just like on the building downtown.

[baldy 0]

I swear, every morning it takes me about an hour at work to go through all the new replys on this thread!

A couple of comments. I asked a while ago about transit enabling a lot with a diagonal road so you could build triangular lots, and the answer I received from RedLotus (who I guess is the transit enabling expert) is that it is possible and to talk to him when it comes time and he will help. This is a lot function, not a BAT function. Since a good number of the buildings are on non square lots, we'll need to learn this.

I thought the status thing was kind of funny and troll came to my mind, even though we can't do it. I come to this site all the time (desk job) and before this thread, I never really posted, so my status was always low.

As for the understanding Detroit, I am a trasplant and have only been living here for 4 years, although I have been here visiting friends many times for 10 years prior. I will agree with people not understanding Detroit. I was one of those people that only hung out in the suburbs and would only go downtown, or into the city for that matter, for sporting events.

My perception, which was influenced greatly by my friends that lived here their whole life, was that Detroit as a whole is a ghetto and if you value your life, don't go there. Fortunately, I have started developing a better understanding and appreciation for the city, what is was, what it is, and what it can become. Besides the people on these sites that have a great appreciation of the architecture down there, I don't know many other people that will just go down there just to go.

I still find it an odd balance when a city like Southfield with a population of around 77,000 can have 200,000 people working there and Detroit only has 80,000 working in the downtown area.

Many thanks to all that are helping to increase my knowledge of things. Personally, I would like to have a weekend where a bunch of us meet downtown and walk around sharing our knowledge. I've taken my wife down there a few times and see is really bored, so I really don't get to spend nearly the amount of time that I would like.

Skyscraper, I enjoyed you picture tour and descriptions! I saw a list of Detroit's top 10 towers of neglect which were set to be demolished and that was the first time I found out that Illitch owned several of the city's worst buildings. I still can't understand how one of the wealthiest people in the area can own so many building like that and do nothing! What a shame. I guess the city has pressured him a little bit to do something, but obviously nothing has happened.

Wolverine, I also have a bunch of photos to help contribute to the website, including some great skyline pictures from windsor. Just let me know what you are looking for and I can send them your way for review. Also, if you need some website assistance, I can help.
Good luck on your test!

I think it was mayor who suggested the old GM building. I think the building you are refering to is the Cadilac building across from the Fisher. It's another great building from that era designed by Albert Kahn.

I like the project logo! I was wondering if anyone has a picture of the cadillac tower when Barry was painted on there? It might make for a nice addition to logo with having a detroit buiding and our project name sake.

Back to work.

[budweiserdude23 80]

First off the avatar idea seems to be taking off, very cool.....

Baldy, I couldn't agree more that we should include the Cadillac Tower with Barry Sanders on the side, he is the project's namesake afterall, maybe 2 versions of it could be done, one with him, the other with the Stanley Cup, don't know how well they'd look in game though...man what an athlete Barry was...too bad I have no pics of that building when he was on it, only memories...

To wolverine, I knew you were joking a bit when you suggested the ranking thing, you kind of have to earn ranking so to speak, but souldn't be cool if we had like a Troll Squad and a Youper Squad?

Oh...BTW this is the 200th post in this thread...impressive...

[baldy 0]

This was the only picture I could find, courtesy of the detroit news.

EDIT:

 https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files/a1sanders1.jpg border=0>

Sorry, for the edit, this is the first time I have added a picture.

Kind of makes Detroit look nice, doesn't it!?!?

[budweiserdude23 80]

Awesome pic, simply awesome....boy I'd love to see some foliage on the trees about now, 6 months of gray crummy weather have worn on me....

[wolverine 12]

I actually don't like that corner.  I mean, Barry and the Stanley cup murals are cool, but there is no subtance on that corner.  In architecture we call that solid-void.  And Detroit has far too much void today.  Fortunately, new buildings going up are helping to fill this in.

Just a reminder to not let us all forget Detroit's New Center area.  I know someone mentioned the Michigan Secretary of State building, formerly General Motors headquarters.  Was the sign lit up on that building?  I was wondering if we could do color light up signs.  I also like the redish colored building to the right.  I forgot its name, but I guess GM sold it and the entire building will be converted to apartments and condos with possible ground floor retail.

 

POST UPDATED 2:17 a.m

0 DAYS LEFT UNTIL EXAMS ARE OVER

[wolverine 12]

Alright, please excuse the double post, but there are some really important things that need to get done to get this project rolling.  First off:

 

ANY MEMBERS HERE AT SIMTROPOLIS, are welcome to take part in this project.  Even if you aren't from Michigan or even the U.S., your modeling skills are welcome here.  We will provide as much detailed info as possible to help you model  the buildings.  I plan to create the Barry's BATing Hall of Fame to recognize those who helped.

 

THE WEBSITE

Budweiserdude, you seem to be the writer of the group.  If you wouldn't mind, I need a good overview of the project that can be put on the About this project page of the website.  If you have any questions, or want me to ask someone else, just PM me.

 

I have already talked to several of you about images for the website and much thanks for letting me use some images.  Also much thanks to people willing to help with the website.  There is a way to allow anonymous users to access and modify websites within the university server.  I will call ITCS and have them modify the account so that others can help.

 

Next off, we need to know what projects are of most importance to begin with.  We have a ton of ideas, but few people to do them.  I honestly think we should shoot for the most simple right now.  After I get some work done on the site, I'm going to teach myself the BAT as if it is the college exam that determines my graduation.  Small buildings, such as Hockeytown or Krogers, Big Boy, etc might be a good place to start.  Or, even the boxy buildings.  Top of Troy building seems rather simple.  This might be a good one to experiment on.  I know I've really pushed Ford Field.  I honestly think Rossetti Architects either dismissed the email as junk, or just downright don't want to deal with us.  But that's okay.  Their model probably sucked anyway.  I have seen such great talent here at S.T and I know we can do better.

 

As I said, anyone with BAT experience is welcome in this project.  You will receive much recognition for your work on the website, so you can show your friends how cool you are at your work.

 

If anyone else has ideas or wants to help with the site, just let me know.  I just want to get this project rolling so we don't have to complain about Kwame, Illitch, suburbia or other things when we don't see a picture of progress.

 

Hope to see some members join!

 

- Wolverine

 

 

[budweiserdude23 80]

Okay.... so your finals are over with wolverine today aren't they? Hope it went well far ya...I'll be around for a little while to see what ya got...

BTW...this weather is nuts, record high 86 this weekend, 45 now with severe thunderstorms earlier, its crazy, it'll probably snow a foot on friday!!!

[wolverine 12]

No I'm not done.  I have 0 days left to study!  This is the day and I'm obviously pulling an all nighter

 

RESIDENTS OF ST, READ MY LAST POST PLEASE!

[budweiserdude23 80]

First off, I meant today being Wednesday, good luck on your finals, and on your all nighter...

As for Rossetti, I think I will resend my e-mail to them one more time, what can it hurt? I must agree though that their model will probably be crap, but you never know.

As for the BAT, I'm gonna try the Uniroyal Tire again starting this weekend, my g/f said we could combine brains and hopefully start rendering these ideas as she seems to have a fair understanding of it. (She's got a degree in computer programming). I agree that the smaller square buildings are probably going to be the easiest as well.

Okay, now for the webpage, I have no problem doing an about this site for you and any lists ,etc. that are needed. However we must discuss how you'd like to format the categoriztions, lists, etc. so I propose that we chat at some point in the near future, PM me to let me know when works best for you and we'll go from there.

BTW, anybody see Farminsim lately, just curious how his project is going...thats all for now...

[baldy 0]

In my experience, e-mailing the company will get you no response, but calling them will atleast get you an answer.  So my suggestion would be to call Rosetti and ask them before we consider this a dead end.

 

Also, there are many areas that we will need to learn before we can get anything into the game.  Right now we are focusing on the models, but we still need to have the properties added (jobs, ect), them put on lots, making ploppable and growable.  So even if someone isn't good at using gmax, there are many other areas to help out.  csx (they have a new name for this but I can't remember right now) is offering up their lot building skills for people that just create the model.  Has anyone on this thread played around with any of this stuff?  I haven't.

 

Wolverine, are you thinking of using the team function in dreamweaver?  I don't really remember what the name is because I never had to use it before.

 

If someone wants to try Top of Troy, I work down the road from it and can get pictures after work.  The building has 2 sides the same and 3rd is just a sheet of glass.  This might be a little tough for a begining project.

 

Speaking of projects, it's been a week since we heard from Farmsim and am also wondering how his rework of the Comerica Tower is coming.

 

Even though I don't have the drawings from Heller Manus, I am going to start on 150 west Jefferson tonight.  I have been playing around with gmax for a while and think I can get a good start.  Also, I think I have figured out how to get all the facade details on.  Once I get one part done, it will just be instancing it over and up, then copying the walls around.  If I get anything respectable, I will try to post tonight.  Unfortunately, this will be the only time I have for the next 2 weeks to work on it.

[wolverine 12]

I have access to dreamweaver for about a week, and that's it, but I will probably buy it from the university since they take 80% off the retail price  

I talked to ITCS here at U of M, and they said they could grant everyone access.  But they said that there are better servers out there that cost hardly anything and give you tons of space.  They rcommended Canaca.com.  It doesn't have unlimited transfer, only about 20 gigs per month which makes me nervous, but they allow 5 gigs of webspace  for a pretty cheap price per month.  I will also register us under a domain.  any suggestions?  barrysandersproject.com????  Anyways, I just have one exam left.  My architecture exam was a breeze.  In fact, it was a joke.  They asked us to draw an arch and then a beam supported by two columns.  Were they serious?  Any 6 year old can do that!  Now it's on to psych.  I will finally be free at 2, but i will be sound asleep.  I also need time to repaint my dorm room because the maintenance here at U of M is overwhelmed.  They dropped off a bucket of paint by my door, so getting the website started today or tomorrow may be a bit slow.  I'm good at painting rooms though.