Open letter?

[Skimbo 304]

Mudder, the admin of CXS has had the idea to send an open letter from the community directly to the board of directors of MC. It's worth a try. If we send this letter, we will first need ideas that should stand in this document.

On the german forums we've actually collected some:

-The players are interrested in a further development.

-MC should listen to the wishes of the community. (And listen to the community management!)

-The communication between MC and the players is miserable> More community managementt!

-Buildings and map editors.

-The players are unhappy about the not finished game and about the huge number of bugs.

-The practically finished developments should be integrated in the new CXL 2011

-Rail traffic (passengers and freight) has to be integrated into CXL 2011

-The GEMs should be finally released.

-MC should try to win back the trust of the community by a good working community management and implenting some useful player ideas into the game.

-Trade between the own cities

- There are a lot of useful mods, MC could implent some of them into the game to make it better. (As long as the modders agree with that)

Have you got some ideas that ain't mentioned aboth? please post them, such a letter needs as much ideas as possible

Original thread (You will need a translator, it's in german) : www.citiesxs.net/forum/index.php/topic,1486.0.html

Mudders post in which he mentioned his idea first (You will need a translator, it's in german) : www.citiesxs.net/forum/index.php/topic,1481.msg35659.html#msg35659

[GlobexCo 33]

I just want to add something to "The players are interrested in a further development":

I think that the best way to show developement (or, at least, a way that MC can use to say "I'm alive, just wait...") are screenshots. Yes, they could add other wrong thoughts about the real (real?) future game... but it's the only way they have to show us they're doing something.

[mr-tom 2]

By all means, write.

Communication is their second weakest point.

Money being the weakest. They're nearly bankrupt. Their current interest is in survival, not gamer candy. I appreciate that their best bet for survival is probably to have lots of happy and loyal customers and that they're really not helping themselves, but then if they actually did the sensible thing, they'd not be in their current situation.

Anyhow, best of luck - if it actually makes a difference, you'll have my gratitude.

[mentarman 14]

Why not, the worst that can happen is it is a waste of your time.

However, I think most of the above is pretty obvious stuff and I'm sure it is what MC would like to do going forward if it can get its finances sorted out. The path should be pretty obvious now that their PO experiment didn't work out.

If you do do something and send it in, I would encourage you to pare it down to a few key concepts. If you end up sending them a big long laundry list of ideas and it just becomes big wish list, I don't think that will be too helpful, and we've been down that road before. So the more it is a big long list of things we want, the less helpful it will be (because it is obvious and been done before and because much of it won't be doable in the short term) and the more it is a statement of what we think guiding principals should be, the better.

So instead of "give us this, release this, then do that" it might better be put as;

1. There is a core group that likes the game.

2. Improving on the core game (bugs etc.) will make this group happier and bigger.

3. Release some of the top wish list things (rail, GEMs) as a way to make money and, if done well, help bolster the reputation of the game.

4. Give modders and BATers more powers and tools to add to the game, which will again grow the fanbase and make the existing fanbase happier, ensuring a market for future additions/expansions.

Etc. etc.

That's just my example. Whoever is actually writing it or sending it can do it how they want. But I just think a big long wish list isn't going to have much impact and it's been done and to some degree ignored before (as I'm sure our usual naysayers will be along to point out shortly as they turn this thread into the same thread we see over and over again in this forum). Either way, now that the PO has failed I'm sure they remember those lists they got and that some of the things on them are pretty good ideas. I think it's less a matter of what to do for them right now as sorting out their ability to do it, and how to do it in a way that is feasible to them.

[ch0c0 13]

the board of directors, or management, will likely be dissolved if they find a buyer. why not wait till someone purchases the project and address them?

[mentarman 14]

Originally posted by: ch0c0

the board of directors, or management, will likely be dissolved if they find a buyer. why not wait till someone purchases the project and address them?quote>

If they find a buyer, if the buyer gets rid of management, if that's the only way for them to go forward, if this open letter even really matters. That's a lot of ifs. I'd say if they want to send it, send it. If all the above ifs happen, worst case scenario, you send a new copy of the email to the new managers/board of directors/whatever.

[Asheroo 53]

I've started an English topic over on the English forums at Cities XS now - http://www.citiesxs.net/forum/index.php/board,15.0.html

I personally think it's a good idea, but I sometimes get sick and tired of people saying MC never listened, and I think they get sick and tired of it as well, and probably get hurt as well. MC certainly did listen, oh yeah, implementing it is a completely, by far different thing however. You can listen, take it in (which is what MC did), but can't implement. Our ideas were too complex for MC to implement, though the PO was one other reason why some weren't implemented, but still. If you were told to make a 3D city building game better than SC4, you would listen, you would take the idea in, but not implement it because you can't.

[mr-tom 2]

Perhaps something to suggest is the sort of model used by Egosoft with their X3 game. It came out ages ago. Was somewhat unwieldy from a player's perspective and essentially bombed. They have however allowed the community to essentially rewrite large components, have even redistributed it with extra content of their own as paid-for add ons...

So, there is a community involvement model that really can work for games where the original developer was never going to pull it off alone. Citing a model which has worked well in the past (the game came out in 05 and is still well used, with Terran Conflict only recently being released) could well work here. Especially when you look at what the community did for SC4.

[Bountytaker 0]

I think you could give it a shot, but, its mostly a list for current customers.  Since the recent news from MC was that only 100,000 bought the game, and that number wasn't enough to maintain the company (even with a percentage of that 100,000 paying a montly fee), keeping the core happy isn't going to do enough.

If the list doesn't have some good, easily implemented suggestions for getting NEW customers, even if they read it, I don't think it will help much.

And I have to disagree with Ash a bit....while there were plenty of impractical suggestions thrown around throughout the development, I recall plenty of practical ones made all the way through beta that the devs made clear they were not going to even try. 

But, that's the past...no need to dig all that up again.

[mentarman 14]

Originally posted by: mr-tom

Perhaps something to suggest is the sort of model used by Egosoft with their X3 game. It came out ages ago. Was somewhat unwieldy from a player's perspective and essentially bombed. They have however allowed the community to essentially rewrite large components, have even redistributed it with extra content of their own as paid-for add ons...

So, there is a community involvement model that really can work for games where the original developer was never going to pull it off alone. Citing a model which has worked well in the past (the game came out in 05 and is still well used, with Terran Conflict only recently being released) could well work here. Especially when you look at what the community did for SC4.quote>

I don't know if that will actually work or not, but that is the sort I think might be more helpful, things that are a bit more conceptual as opposed to handing over another wishlist.

[dedgren 830]

Folks just don't get it...

Unless your letter has a couple million Euros enclosed, the chances of it getting any attention from anyone at MC right now are zero. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Wishing things were different never changed anything. MC doesn't need your input right now, it needed your money yesterday.

A little more than a quarter-century ago I thought beta format videocassetes were superior in every way to VHS (technically they were [linkie]). Sony was behind the technology, there were lots of beta format movies, and the smaller form factor was just cool. I was offended that anyone thought otherwise- big old clunky VHS tapes were for losers, and if someone was going to take away my beta cassettes, they would have to pry them from my cold, dead fingers.

But I never wrote Sony a "here's what you should do" letter after it became apparent that the marketplace hated beta. I mean, what skin would I have had in the game that would have made any difference to Sony? The cost of an international postage stamp, an envelope and sheet of paper and a few minutes of my time- so what?

MC won't be listening to anything you say- not because the company is bad or wrong, but because nothing you could say at this point could make any difference...

...unless you could say, "here's five million Euros."

Sorry to be the voice of doom, but I'm right. If you don't like that, well... get over it.

David

[voodoo02 0]

The way it looked from the beginning they release the Retail version of the game and we were to "beta" it while MC released more content I guess why they worked out the bugs. The game can be a beast if the unfinished goodies are finished and released (ie Mass Transit, GEMs, etc) I take it they ran into problems while adding new content into the game and then a poor sales that limited there "playing" with the will be added later content ideas. I am hopeful that they finish up there project and update/patch the game to its intended means...

PO was also a bad call as all city builders are player vs the landscape/resources. On that note a "trading system" would have been needed which I could see where they were going with PO but to limit features was its downfall from Solo to PO. I personally payed for 3 months more but let it expire as it wasn't worth it for a few extra buildings and the buses...

[DazzaDazza 29]

i 100 % agree with dedgren.

There not going to listen to 50 to 100 complain fans, saying

We won't more commutation and a large wish list.

I would ask what more commutation do you all wont, if your asking to 100% transparency that's not going to happen, MC is like every other company out there, so I don't really see why they should have to tell every one what they are doing all the time.

[mentarman 14]

Great. But the thread is for ideas for adding to or altering a letter should one be sent. If you don't want to participate...don't.

Or we can turn this into the same thread that we have over and over again in this forum...

[DazzaDazza 29]

yes I hear what your saying, but I think sending a open letter looks somewhat bad on our part, I think we start to lose credibility, it look like where just complaining about thing there are already very well aware of, given there current situation I would believe they have more pressing issues to worry about then a letter of demands from fans. By all means send it, but we just spent the last years listing to people complaining about the game, now we are just doing the same thing, complaining about the same thing.

[Asheroo 53]

Originally posted by: mrdazza_460

yes I hear what your saying, but I think sending a open letter looks somewhat bad on our part, I think we start to lose credibility, it look like where just complaining about thing there are already very well aware of, given there current situation I would believe they have more pressing issues to worry about then a letter of demands from fans. By all means send it, but we just spent the last years listing to people complaining about the game, now we are just doing the same thing, complaining about the same thing.quote>

True, you would think they have had enough of us by now, yet they still want the game to continue on. I think MC have well and truly learnt a lesson now about the city building community. We're not big, and we're not that forgiving. After the PO has been shut down, and that they are now looking for buyers, they probably have learnt a big lesson, and they really are very well aware, especially after all the complaints and arguments already had.

A letter won't certainly make them give you a whole lot of answers back, nor will it speed up the gaming process, nor will it bring a revolution in city building games. They would listen to the answer, but as I've said many times before, implementing it into the game is a completely different thing and different concept. 

I still think it's a good idea, but I'd rather send a letter of support for CXL 2011, having a few key suggestions in it wouldn't hurt of course, but the bad communication bit and any other key complaints you should really leave out. I'm sure a majority of people here, including me, would admit they wouldn't listen to the one same complaint over and over again, week after week. Even worse, especially being accused wrong. Sometimes people can get carried away and really don't understand the meaning of communication and how it is received.

[billmallon 0]

I think the 'basic' idea of an open letter to Monte Cristo is a good idea but I think it should be written on behalf of  the entire community of city builder/simulator game fans. The Simtropollis Community alone shows a statistic of more than three-quarter of a million 'registered ' users. Obviously, not every member plays the Cities XL game but it should be worth recognizing that there is a significant number of people that enjoy this type of game and want to see it continue. Whether Monte Cristo wants to cut their losses and abondon this market, they still have the chance to show any perspective buyer that there is still a potential to be profitable in this type of game. In the brief time that I have been a member of the Simtropolis community, I have realized that it's members are very intelligent and have a passion and loyalty for playing this type of game. Much of the frustration and disappointment that accompanied the release of Cities XL was due to the fact that 'basic' features of game play already established by the SimCity franchise were not included in this 'next generation' game. Monte Cristo should release a patch (as they did with the bus system when they ended the PO) of any 'basic' features that they have available to re-establish credibility within the gaming community. They should also make a 'price list' available for any additional content (such as the GEMs) so the community can purchase the items they want to improve their game. That may be expecting a lot but I think it gives both sides the opportunity to 'put their money where their mouth is' and allow this game format some hope for the future. Respectfully submitted.

[rsd6000 8]

yeah i agree with it

[IntoxiNation 0]

Originally posted by: billmallon

 The Simtropollis Community alone shows a statistic of more than three-quarter of a million 'registered ' users. Obviously, not every member plays the Cities XL game but it should be worth recognizing that there is a significant number of people that enjoy this type of game and want to see it continue.quote>

Here's what I see:

389,411 users are registered to the Simtropolis community.

That's not even 1/2 a million.

Given how long this site has actually been around, we can safely say the active base is 1/2 of that. Just in the CXL forum, there are quiet a few posts by people who made 1 post to inquire about CXL (or complain) and that was it. I don't think we can really call those people a fan base, but rather more of a somewhat interested party. I don't know if Simtropolis deletes accounts after X amount of inactivity, but if they don't I'm sure there are a bunch who haven't even touched a city builder game in years. People's tastes change.

Honestly, I think that should be used in a constuctive way by MC. I posted about it the "Is this game dead or what" thread. MC really didn't do any marketing for their game. Most of their marketing was based upon word of mouth - hoping people in communities like ours would go out and really push their game. Given all the problems CXL had at its release, and even beyond, that most likely turned out to do more harm than good.

IMHO to make city builder survive there should be a strong effort to bring in more newcomers to the city builder genre. The climate is also perfect for it, with more people showing an increased interest in things like politics. If MC really embraced our communities and combined that with a marketing blitz outside of our communities, then we could see interest really grow.

[City Planner 121]

So you have to collect ideas of what to put in a letter? Usually it goes the other way around, you have ideas and you put them in a letter.

Personally, I think you're simply blowing steam, they didn't listen over the past several years and there ist certainly no reason for them to listen now. They've got a lot more important things to concern themselves with right now than a letter from their core audience that they were supposedly listening to but obviously didn't.

You want to write a letter go right ahead, however many if not all of the things have already been said and ignored by Montecristo so writing a letter in my opinion is usless. This is a company that is arrogant and so full of themselves that they believe they know what is always best and as it turned out they don't know jack. And I don't believe that this experience has humbled them any either, I think they are still full of themselves and a letter will simply be passed around the office as a joke "hahahaha, look at these people, now they are writing us letters saying the same things they've been saying for years now". No, I think that it is pointless to write a letter at this point in time, they themselves don't know if they will have jobs next week or if they will all be tossed out on their ears and the primaries have to pay out a lot of money to their creditors or if they will receive protection from the bankruptcy courts.

I honestly think it's time to stop beating this dead horse, it's got no life left in it. It's time to simply forget about Cities 2011, MonteCristo and the whole botched situation that they walked into foot by foot ignoring all the sane advise that they were offered.

But hey, if writing a letter makes any of you feel good, then I say go for it. Just like wish lists however, don't be surprised if all you get in return is another form letter thanking you for writing them.

[vonhaubitz 5]

what's the use of it? They seem to be on the verge of bankruptcy as it looks like that they have consequently produced a loss over the past few years. and now it is very likely that the banks will not finance them anymore. So, if there will be a buyer, you can contact them, but MC seems to have other problems to solve right now than taking your nice little advice how to develop the game any further

[Garek Maxwell 1]

Maybe it would work if it had a more demanding tone like, "If you do not meet our demands within the next 48 hours we will be forced to use the doomsday machine!"

I am assuming that the people behind this letter have a giant red button that they can press while laughing maniacally as the world is taken over by legions of robots or something.

That may be the only way to get anything out of MC right now though. ...Well, I assume death rays would work too in theory...In theory!

[Mootilda 76]

Even when threatened with a doomsday machine or death ray, programming takes time; I doubt that this would work for any demand except "Communicate with us!". Of course, the communication that you'd receive with such a threat probably won't be friendly (unless they don't believe you).

[billmallon 0]

IntoxiNation: Thanks for correcting my error...the number is greater than 1/4 but less than 1/2 million....but I hope it  doesn't diminish the point that there ARE people playing this type of game and interest IS still growing in it. The 'numbers' may not be the kind that  put dollar signs in the eyes of the marketing people for this type of game but in spite of the financial problems of Monte Cristo and no other entries on the horizon from any other game developers, the number of 'registered users' in the Simtropolis community IS still continuing to increase. You are right that 'active' participation in the community may not be equivalent to the size of its membership but I think your additional comments also confirm that there is 'potential' for the future of this type of game....and that is what I hope the companies that produce these games can appreciate. Thanks again for your input.

[Gregory_C 0]

I just replied to a similar topic on the french forum Generation City; I thought I might as well translate it here:

Now is the time where I put on my diplomatic spokesperson hat.

I certainly don't want to discourage good wills, far from it, but let's be direct: we (MC) are in a unusual situation, and although such an open letter  stems from good intentions it may not be the best way to help us; and for two good reasons:

1) We already know most of what will be in this letter. Eventhough we keep a bit of a low profile lately we still follow closely all online activities, we browse the forums everyday and we are well aware of the most common requests.  (and many of them make sense).

2) As some people have rightfully underlined: MC's current priorities have changed a bit (look, the diplomatic spokesperson hat at work) we are looking for new partners to take over Cities XL and our company, and such a letter would be better directed at them. Obviously, as soon as someone ask me who these potential partners are I'll reply that, as we already mentionned, we cannot comment further at this point.. However, you should understand that such potential partners are well informed of our players request as well as our own positions regarding those..

Then what should we do?

Do not give up. Keep on playing, build great cities, have fun on the forum, release great mods. And go outside a bit as well; it's springtime.

As far as MC is concerned we do not give up, but currently MC is 'locked' communication-wise. This is a necessity for now, and this will stay that way for at least another few weeks time for some things to evolve backstage. We hoped that the situation would unlock itself a couple weeks ago, unfortunately it didn't happen, some things just take time to happen. To be continued in the next few weeks...

[Skimbo 304]

I'm impressed, MC replys

PS: Posted and translated it in the similar thread on the german forums.

But one question: The CMs shurely know what the community wants, what's with your directors, doo they know too what MC should develop in future times?

[ACEH 0]

Originally posted by: Skimbo

I'm impressed, MC replys

PS: Posted and translated it in the similar thread on the german forums.

quote>

They broke the silence and said "Wait. There will be nothing more than more silence"

[Gregory_C 0]

Originally posted by: ACEH

Originally posted by: Skimbo

I'm impressed, MC replys

PS: Posted and translated it in the similar thread on the german forums.

quote>

They broke the silence and said "Wait. There will be nothing more than more silence"quote>

At this point that's all we can say unfortunately. Legal bindings prevent us from saying any more for now..

Originally posted by: Skimbo

The CMs shurely know what the community wants, what's with your directors, doo they know too what MC should develop in future times? quote>

Again: I can't give more details right now; we'll have to wait and see how things evolve in may.

[Skimbo 304]

Originally posted by: Gregory_C

At this point that's all we can say unfortunately. Legal bindings prevent us from saying any more for now..

Again: I can't give more details right now; we'll have to wait and see how things evolve in may.

quote>

Thoose legal bindings are just one more step on the way of loosing the trust of the community. As far as the people who trust MC still exist... I'm not shure about that....

[mentarman 14]

Originally posted by: Skimbo

Originally posted by: Gregory_C

At this point that's all we can say unfortunately. Legal bindings prevent us from saying any more for now..

Again: I can't give more details right now; we'll have to wait and see how things evolve in may.

quote>

Thoose legal bindings are just one more step on the way of loosing the trust of the community. As far as the people who trust MC still exist... I'm not shure about that....

quote>

Look, this is the way things work in the grown up business world. Sometimes not every thing can be communicated. Sometimes communicating everything you can isn't a good idea (a lesson MC has maybe already learned.) The company is not in good shape and they need to do what they can to fix that if there's any chance of anything else good coming down the pike in regards to this game.

How long do you think it took them to make this decision: we can bind ourselves legally from saying much, and have a chance at getting this company back on track and producing a better game, but some people will not like that we can't communicate much. Or we can avoid that and be able to tell people things but lose out on a chance to save the company, the game and our jobs. Seems a pretty easy choice considering a lot of people around here will complain either way.