Native Hawaiian Government May Become a Reality!

[SimCity4IE 202]

The story is available here:

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[Aontan 0]

This sounds like an excellent idea.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Interesting since we have similar aboriginal problems here in Canada.  One of the basic problems we have is that in the past we reduced these people to clients of the state.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Native Hawaiians are the last remaining indigenous group in the United States that hasn't been allowed to establish their own government, a right already extended to Alaska Natives and 564 Native American tribes. quote>

Why everyone else and not them?  That makes no sense.  It is past time to fix this.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Meg

Native Hawaiians are the last remaining indigenous group in the United States that hasn't been allowed to establish their own government, a right already extended to Alaska Natives and 564 Native American tribes. quote>

Why everyone else and not them?  That makes no sense.  It is past time to fix this.

quote>

When was the Sitting Bull Memorial built?

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

When was the Sitting Bull Memorial built?quote>

Well, they are still arguing about it.  and the Battle of Little Big Horn was in 1876.

Your point being that Hawaii hasn't been a state for very long.   (There were only 48 stars on the flag when I was born.)  These things take time

[Duke87 1,070]

Personally, I see no logic in letting native tribes do this. I don't get to band together with other people from southern Lazio and form an autonomous government. What makes them so special?

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Personally, I see no logic in letting native tribes do this. I don't get to band together with other people from southern Lazio and form an autonomous government. What makes them so special?quote>

Because it was their land in the first place.

As they say in Avatar, if other people are on top of something we want, we just kill them off and take it.  and the justification for that is what?

[hym 358]

Many Native Hawaiians believe this process could help right the wrongs perpetuated since their kingdom was overthrown in 1893. The also point to the hundreds of thousands who died from diseases spread by foreign explorers before the kingdom fell.quote>

That makes as much sense as me demanding restitution for the acts of some politicians during the Reconstruction era, or Georgians wanting government handouts because their deceased relatives happened to have property in the path of Gen. Sherman during his famous march.

I find it interesting that people will condemn Afghanistan tribes fighting 100 year wars over the death of someone's grandfather and will then approve of creating a special class of people as a form of apology for something that happened nearly 120 years ago.  The same absolutely childish behavior is at work in both cases: the inability to let the wrongs of the past simply die.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

When was the Sitting Bull Memorial built?quote>

Well, they are still arguing about it.  and the Battle of Little Big Horn was in 1876.

Your point being that Hawaii hasn't been a state for very long.   (There were only 48 stars on the flag when I was born.)  These things take time

quote>

If you think that what you did to Sitting Bull was bad, you should look at what we did to him.  And then we gave him to you.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Meg

Because it was their land in the first place.quote>

No it wasn't. It was their great-great-great (maybe a few more greats) grandparents' land.

I wonder, when is France going to give the Gauls some autonomy?

As they say in Avatar, if other people are on top of something we want, we just kill them off and take it.  and the justification for that is what?quote>

We don't need to justify, apologize for, or offer any reconciliation for what our ancestors did to anyone else's ancestors. That water's waaaay under the bridge.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

We don't need to justify, apologize for, or offer any reconciliation for what our ancestors did to anyone else's ancestors. That water's waaaay under the bridge. quote>

Point taken.

However, I was around before Hawaii was a state.  I imagine that a few native Hawaiians were too.

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: Duke87

We don't need to justify, apologize for, or offer any reconciliation for what our ancestors did to anyone else's ancestors. That water's waaaay under the bridge.

quote>

What about what we've done and what we're doing now to the native people all over North America who are still alive?  Many still live in poverty due to policies carried out during the Jackson Administration.  They still suffer because they are all but ignored now.

True, as a person, I do not have any responsibility for the wrongs of the past.  However, the government very much does as it has been "alive" far longer than I have and most importantly, was instrumental in perpetrating the injustices of which we are still seeing the effects today.

ISF

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Duke87

I wonder, when is France going to give the Gauls some autonomy?

quote>

Are there any Gauls of pure stock left?  We are talking a couple of thousand years and I have always believed that they won over the Franks.  A synonym for French is Gaulish.

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

What about what we've done and what we're doing now to the native people all over North America who are still alive?  Many still live in poverty due to policies carried out during the Jackson Administration.  They still suffer because they are all but ignored now.

True, as a person, I do not have any responsibility for the wrongs of the past.  However, the government very much does as it has been "alive" far longer than I have and most importantly, was instrumental in perpetrating the injustices of which we are still seeing the effects today.

ISF

quote>

I raised this point obliquely.  We, in Canada, have a crisis of conscience when it comes to the original Canadians.  This was on display at the recently held Winter Olympics.  We were much more concerned over our aboriginal peoples than we were over the French colonists.

The present Indian Act and the Department of Indian affairs needs to have its mouth thoughly rinsed with lye soap.  There is a lot of lip service, but some aboriginals are worse off in Canada than the poorest african village.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

What about what we've done and what we're doing now to the native people all over North America who are still alive?  Many still live in poverty due to policies carried out during the Jackson Administration.  They still suffer because they are all but ignored now.quote>

The problems were caused in the first place by treating them differently from everyone else. Now we're trying to solve those problems... by treating them differently from everyone else. Absurd, much? Here's a novel idea: how about we actually embrace our value that all men are created equal by givng them the same rights and subjecting them to the same standards as all the rest of us? What could be more fair and just than that?

True, as a person, I do not have any responsibility for the wrongs of the past.  However, the government very much does as it has been "alive" far longer than I have and most importantly, was instrumental in perpetrating the injustices of which we are still seeing the effects today.quote>

"The government" is not a self-aware entity that thinks or feels. It's just a group of people elected by us, the citizens of America, to run things. Whatever they do, they do on our behalf. If we the people don't need to apologize, than neither do the subset of people representing us.

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Are there any Gauls of pure stock left?  We are talking a couple of thousand years and I have always believed that they won over the Franks.  A synonym for French is Gaulish.quote>

It's irrelevant. My point is that the US' conquest of the Native American people is equally ancient history as the Romans' conquest of the Gauls.

It merits education so we don't repeat it,  but not corrective measures or compensation of any kind.

[Odainsaker 2,133]

It's about time...the overthrow of the Kingdom and the creation of the apartheid Republic of Hawaii was a dark day for Hawaii and a stain against the U.S. and the era of imperialism.  Native Hawaiians saw themselves stripped by foreigners of their citizenship and voting rights in their own country and dispossessed, and had never expressed desire or voted to join the U.S.  While their minority status on their own islands was a process long under way due to the ravages of disease and the importation of immigrant plantation labor, which had occurred even under the monarchy, their continued status as a marginalized and disproportionately impoverished people on America's tropical playground is a sign that the current government establishment is not working.  To strip a people down to nothing for generations, and then suddenly declare that we are now all equal with equal opportunities in a happy union with a level playing field, and that they should put and shut up, is to live in a fairy tale.

In honesty, I am suspicious of an alternative native government, as it just muliplies inefficiencies with a dual set of politician scammers, and I would rather the existing system somehow be made to work.  Meanwhile, those groups calling for Hawaiian seccession, independence, and a restoration of the monarchy are in denial of the reality that too many diverse people now call the islands home, and they have missed the history lesson of the Kingdom's fall in that radical action of identity groups begets radical results, a la Israel and Palestine.  No doubt, the tight economic situation of Hawaii, whose fortunes are often tied to Japan's long ongoing doldrums, is magnifying the problems.  Still, that we are at this point is a sign that for many of those living there, the past issues that feed present disparaties had never been resolved, and if this is the path to some sort of reconciliation that the people living in Hawaii ultimately choose, who am I, a former resident "local," to deny them it?  I think those living there are in the best position to judge, and this is the solution they have forwarded.  I hope it works.

"The life of the land is established in righteousness" is not just a motto.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

The atrocities committed against the native peoples of North America by various governments are well-documented and well-known. Can't deny that, and to claim it was anything short of morally reprehensible would be crazy.

What I don't see is how we can possibly ever fix anything so long as people still harbor resentment or guilt about it. Those are divisive forces which make things worse, not better.

Almost everyone on earth can find somewhere in history that their people were in some way oppressed or abused. If we stay stuck on that and refuse to get over it, having people get along and peacefully, equally, mutually coexist is not going to be possible. There's a tendency to want payback or restitution, yes, but that only encourages people to continue fighting and hating each other. We're all entitled to be proud of our heritage, but it should not be relevant when determining policy. Judge people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. That is supposed to be the ultimate goal, right?

There is a sticking point in the native case, though. The US government does still have treaties in effect with various tribes where they agree to grant them reservations, autonomy, etc. And to just forget about those treaties would be, ironically enough, another broken promise.

It's a prime example of being trapped in a less than ideal situation because what would be necessary to make it better is further evil. Indeed, the special treatment native people now have protects the only bit of the old pre-Columbian America that remains, and to cease that treatment would in a way be the final defeat.

Given all that, I can certainly understand why there is hesitance to move in such a direction. But, in the long run, I think it would be for the better. Painful as it is, we're going to have to just accept that there was a huge fight that there shouldn't have been, and the native people lost when they should have won. We can't undo the wrongs that were done, we just have to come to terms with them and move on.

[hamsterTK 93]

@Barbarossa:

Let's talk in real terms here. What particular things do you feel need to be addressed that aren't being handled now and how would you go about accomplishing them?

I understand that Hawaii and Honolulu has assorted urban social problems. That affordability and employment are problems inherent to a island, and that these pressures will impact locals more than transplants and this group by definition contains natives and also those on the lower rung of the social ladder.

It's justified that these groups should be targeted with services to improve their well-being, but I am skeptical about a native government itself getting special treatment when the issues are broader than a few self-interested parties would care to think.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[josefmayor 8]

I'm able to afford going to school because of my Native American tribe the Chickasaws. (I'm also registered CDIB)

My great grandmother was forced from Mississippi to Oklahoma to live in poverty on a reservation.

My father and uncle grew up poor in Oklahoma and were fortunate enough to be superior athletes. Thats the only reason I'm able to post here today. Both were given full scholarships to Oklahoma State University.

I've been so injured in my high school athletics I'm unable to do the same so my only ability to afford college is through the grants and scholarships offered.

Because my Nation was granted autonomy they are now able to provide Health care, Education, and help to those who need it, and I will tell you there are a lot of them that need it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: josefmayor

Because my Nation was granted autonomy they are now able to provide Health care, Education, and help to those who need it, and I will tell you there are a lot of them that need it.quote>

Hmm... now this is an interesting angle on the matter. Especially considering some of the huge National debates going on currently with regards to these things.

So, the Chickasaws have essentially formed a brotherhood where they help each other out and provide for each other. Okay, that's fine, but now the tough question: did autonomy really enable that or could they have done it anyway? Could it have been done a different way, perhaps a better way? Plenty of charitable organizations have helped a lot of people without having official autonomy, after all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the key enabler would be the source of the money - namely, the casinos. Obviously, treaties granting reservation and autonomy are what allow that, but... what if instead we just made it legal to build and operate casinos? Then anyone could do it. More fair, no?

Another tough question: isn't it discriminatory to only help Chickasaws while leaving everyone else in need out to dry?

I think it is. But, that admittedly hinges on categorizing "Chickasaw" as an ethnic group just like any other. If you look at it as "they're a nation within a nation", the logic falls apart, and it's no more discriminatory than Oklahoma only helping Oklahoma. Obviously the latter is the currently officially sanctioned view. Still, the question is worth pondering.

[josefmayor 8]

Well where I grew up they had Social Clubs which were only opened to the immigrants that represented them, and they only helped those immigrants. These were private run.

Things like

El Centro Espanol, The German Club, El Circuolo Cubano, La Union Italiono, Centro Austrino (sp on some)

They provided essentialy the same things as the Chickasaws BUT, you had to pay dues. They would provide heatlh care and aid for education.

How are these any different than an autonomous Native government that collects its own taxes from its own establishments similar to how these Privately run social clubs that collected money from member dues and their own runned establishments?

The only real difference is that the Chickasaw Nation was unable to provide the same help cos these orginizations all existed back in the 1880-1950's They couldn't then... Hell it was illegal to serve my dad a beer in a bar until the 70's!

Its their right to decide what they do with the money that they collected for their own orginization.

Besides that the nation is estimated at 20,000. Its very easy and not that expensive to provide for such a small population. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The whole issue of aboriginal rights is a hot one right now, especially in Canada.  Our good friends, the Company of Gentlemen Trading out of Hudson's Bay, did their level best to genocide the natives by biological warfare.  They sold them blankets contaminated with small pox.  This decimated (at least) most of the tribes with whom they came in contact.

Then there were the Christian (Catholic, mostly Jesuit) missionaries.  Most of them were jumped-up poor peasants more ignorant than the natives.  There were a few spectacular exceptions.  Imagine the impact of some black-robed idiot, backed up by superior fire power, who came among the tribes and tried to convert them "with reeking tube and iron shard".  The activities of the missionaries of the 17^th to 19^th centuries quite often make my blood boil.  It is not surprising that many tribes made these guys undertake the tribal acceptance rules like running the gauntlet before they would listen to them at all.  Most deserved what they got.

What we have to do in the long run is put a sane end to the "special" citizenship of these people and move them into our regular mosaic of peoples.  We must take great care that they retain and preserve their culture and languages, but not their living conditions.

[hamsterTK 93]

The simply answer, my friend, is to read up on your history.quote>

You don't need to speak down to me. Nor did you actually comprehend my post. I'm all for what josefmayor is talking about-entities that close the gap between native Americans and the rest of us. And it makes since that these agencies are run by native Americans themselves.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@HamsterTK:  We both posted at the same time.  You might want to back up and read mine.  NOB.

[fukuda 351]

Are there any Gauls of pure stock left?  We are talking a couple of thousand years and I have always believed that they won over the Franks.  A synonym for French is Gaulish.quote>

Romanticism and nationalism (read: anti-german feelings) are the main reasons why French and Gaul are "synonyms". Gauls were ehm.. replaced long ago by all the invading germanic tribes. Germanic tribes were extremely big, with populations counting in the hundreds of thousands and even millions, way bigger than the already decadent gauls they encountered.

Franks and Burgundians were quite romanized at the time when they invaded what was later going to be France, giving some kind of continuity illusion from the old roman and gaul times(Normands, aka Vikings, would become so in what now is Normandy), even though the ethnicity was completely changed. Up until the romantic era no one really pretended to be of Gaul ancestry, there's a reason why the country is called France and not Gaulle after all . It makes little sense talking about gauls nowadays, really.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Exellent point.  Take the Walsunga Saga for example, which Richard Wagner used for his great teutonic epic, The Ring of the Neibelungen.  Brunhilde was a princess of the Burgundians and Siegfried was a prince of Orange.  Not exactly Germanic people, what? 

{I think I have this right, I am working from memory and may have the tribal attributions reversed}