Cities XL advantages

[soltangris 42]

In the last weeks there's been another round of CXL evaluation, mainly thanks to a thread here in the forum, and I couldn't help but notice an interesting fact: many people judged the economy of the game as the worst part of it. I'm saying it's interesting because I deem it to be actually one of the aspects where it has moved ahead of the Sim City series. Thinking a little bit over this contradiction, I realised that maybe many people don't realise what exactly has changed, and are maybe mistaking economy with micromanagement. The fact that you can tweak each resident's class tax rates, cut service's funding, and enact ordinances that have economic effect, is a detail of the overall economy, but it does not form its essence.  

This, and the fact that the overwhelming part of the posts here deal in great detail with CXL's problems, while mentioning its advantages in just one or two sentences as a minor detail, have made me post this thread as an attempt to bring out in some detail the other ways CSL is different, and I think better than SC4. Especially in such aspects as the economy that tend to be overlooked by the community in general.

1. Developing zones in SC4 vs 'static' zones in CXL

One of the facts most pointed out in relation with basic CXL funcionality, is that the zones feel 'dead', that is, once a building appear in a zone, it doesn't 'develop' as it did in Sim City. However, have you really thought about that?

- In Sim City, you could zone only industrial, commercial, residential (and farms). Then, what type of the relative branch will develop in the zone depends on the economic conditions in your city, and in the whole region. This funcionality is practically represented by 'Demand' - if there was demand for the economic aspect in question, it would develop. To give an example, you zone an industrial zone; since the demant for dirty industry is always highest, dirty industry buildings will develop there first. However, if later the demand for manufacturing industry raises, those types of industries will replace the dirty industries in the same zones. And later - high tech. The same is valid for commercial (where offices that are considered $$ would replace $ services, and so on). This mechanic is the very basis of Sim City economy - since the more 'advanced' industries and commerce are more efficient in terms of taxes, jobs and cleanness, your basic goal is always to develop the most advanced forms in each field (that is, hich tech industry, $$$ offices and $$$ residentials). And, here's where the region comes into play: regional demand was comprised on the combination of all individual citie's demands and conditions, as long as they're connected to the grid via roads. 

To cut the long story short, at some point in the game (I personally have managed to reach it with not more than 5 - 6 highly developed cities in the region) the regional demand for high tech and $$$ offices had reached such insane levels, that every new city I start and connect to 'the Grid' would get SSS Skyscrapers and high-tech industry with no education in the city and not more than 10 000 population. Which is, I think, ridiculous.

Well, bottom line: the 'development' in Sim City was actually a result of the economic mechanism, and was the sole focal point of this mechanism.

- IN CXL there is NO development in the zones - once a building appears, it'll stay there and won't change. However, there IS something constantly changing - and this is the individual profitability of that building (and the taxes it generates as a result). The economic conditions in your city are also constantly changing, and usually for worse if you're not carefull. So, it is fully possible for this building to go bankrupt and empty, just as they do in SC. For that not to happen, you have to keep a constant eye on the supply of resources that the business is using; on the transport conditions in the vicinity, on the quality of the air. Small improvements can make the profits of the business jump up. Neglecting those would make the profits slump....

Bottom line: there IS economic mycromanagement in CXL, just as there is in Sim City - but the focus has changed. The building doesn't change, true, but its efficiency does. And to keep up the efficiency could be even more of a challenge than it is in SC!

As a direct result of the different mechanics, you can zone every particular branch of business in CXL, unlike in SC4. You can zone farms, Heavy ind, Manuf. Offices, shops, etc. This means that you have total controll over what will appear where - something you don't have in SC. For an 'artist' mayor that wants to really 'skulpt' his city, this is a major improvement. And you're still challenged to provide the necessary conditions for the wellbeing of your businesses.

2. Resources in CXL - the much overlooked aspect.

In SC4, the Demand represented everything in the economy. The number and  type of population, along with the education level, and combined with the development of industry, dictated what the demand will be for each business type. For example, in a small city there is almost no demand for commerce, and zero demand for offices. Once the regional population reached the millions, the demand for commerce skyrockets. That's all well, but it's somewhat unclear and one-directional in my opinion. You always go towards more demand for offices and high tech, and less demand for farms and manufacturing ind. , for example. Until at some point you're forced to keep your  new city off the regional grid if you want to develop some dirty industry.

In CXL, the resources relationships are introduced - every aspect of the game is represented as a resource, and every aspect requires other resources. There is a clear relationship (described in every single building), where SC only had Demand. Furthermore, the needs of your residents are such that it is virtually guaranteed that a greater variety of aspects of a city will be represented than in SC, while in the same time leaving you the freedom to build a city to your liking, and import the resources that you need.

When you decide to develop a city in a certain way, you're always free to chose how exactly, and later you'll have to deal with the consequenses of your choices, if you wanna keep your city afloat. For example, if you decide to develop a high-tech city, you'll need lots of manufacturing industry and waste disposal capabilities, but in the same time, you'll have to keep pollution under control. And both manufacturing and waste produce air polution. Whatever your choices - everything has its place, and unlike SC4 you can develop every single aspect without problems (so far as you develop it right). 

Bottom line - thanks to the resources chains we have a more clear relationships between branches of the economy; we still have the boosts in demand that each development brings, but without the restrictions and one-directional tendencies in SC.  

3. Separate resource development.

In CXL we get a depth in the development of many resources that was absent from Sim City. 4 of the resources require natural features of the maps (oil and water deposits, fertile lands for agriculture and suitable areas for holidays); the use of each of those is restricted because it consumes part of the suitable areas, forcing you to plan carefully how are you gonna place those water towers or oil derricks. Furthermore, there are booster buildings that have to be unlocked and strategically placed. Lastly, there are 'reward buildings' for every business, also unlockable, that are pretty cool as an idea, not to mention terribly efficient.

All this allows your city to 'specialize' in certain resources, developing as an oil center, an office center, agricultural center, etc, or as combinations of the above. Which is pretty realistic. And  again adds depth to your planning: as I mentioned above, one-directional development places many challenges before the mayor.

4. The presence of city aspects never-before-seen in Sim City

In SC4 all your citizens seemed to be doing was work, work, work... Oh, and move to work and back. Such essential parts of a city as hotels, leisure and vacations were completely absent. Well, there are the custom-made hotels and all that, but all this was an eye-candy, only to place it and admire the sight of it in the city.

In CXL all of the above is introduced, and also very functional: you can build hotels for business travelers to complement your office's funcions; you can build leisure points for your citizens to have fun, and lastly, you can provide vacations for them by building holliday hotels. Not only can, you HAVE  to do all of the above: it is required for the well-being of your citizens and businesses.

You can develop your city as something that wasn't possible in SC - a vacation paradise like Las Vegas.

5. Landmarks and environment

Another apsect I think is better developed in CXL that it was in SC. The Land value of SC4 is the same as Environment in CXL, but the later is much harder to maintain and requires  really good planning. Also, I don't know about you, but the Landmark and special buildings system in CXL feel a little more challenging - not the least because every Landmark here costs money to maintain. Also, there's the ever-present smog to keep in mind (the city-wide air polution that wasn't present in SC), and that smog will make it double as hard for you to reach good environment. Granted, the tools to combat polution are currently a little stunded, but every development of the game brings a positive change (and more Landmarks).

6. Services mechanics are more realistic

Despite the fact that you can't tweak your hospital's funding, I think that CXL's concept of the services affecting your city through the road network, and thus being subject to traffic, is far more realistic and challenging than Sim City's bubles. As one of the other posters said, it's ridiculous to think that a hospital won't accept a patient only because he's from ouside its range of effect.

I won't mention here the other obvious advantages of CXL over SC4 (grid-free maps, road mycromanagement,  free zoning, Megastructures, graphics), because they've been discussed already. My point is to try and point out some aspects that in my opinion are overlooked.  

Note that I don't claim that Cities XL is definitely a better game in every aspect, that would be unfair in light of the miriad micro-management options in SC that are absent in CXL, and also, of course, the missing mass transport options. However, I think there are some misconceptions about it, and some misinformation that is partially the result of the one-sided approach of many fans that were disapointed over the game, and partially MC's failure to communicate the new features of the core game experience (they concentrated entirely on the MMO aspect, while forgetting almost completely to point out gameplay details).

Last but not least: unlike Sim City 4, which is not developing in essential funcionality, Cities XL is still being developed as we speak. There are many more features to be added in the (near we hope) future. The recently added bus system, in particular, gives us the highest hopes for the development of the game in complexity and details.

- Disclaimer: I don't consider here the PO aspect and the related discussion. You're more than welcome to comment and disprove on the game economy and the other points I raise, but Please, try to leave PO out - this post is to talk of the objective gameplay facts, not on how they're realised. Besides, we have enough 'I hate PO' threads!  

[Skimbo 304]

Great work, thx

[DazzaDazza 29]

 

1 While I do think the zoning system in SC4 is better at the moment, because it seems to deal with land management better and your cities look some what more realistic then CXL do, I do like the fact the your city stays “static” I find that more realistic because most building don’t change every 5 years like in SC4 they probably change every 50 – 100 years if at all. So I don’t really see why people have such an issue with this.

 

As for SC4 region play all of what you said there are way around with simple planing. But they can be annoying and time consuming, such as making land value low with high polluting buildings such as power plants, then when you have the desired land value you make them historic and delete the power plant, there are other way as well,  but that was just a example. So I do think you still have as much control over your zones in SC4 as CXL the only different is CXL dose it in a simpler manner.  But one the thing that annoys me the most about CXL zoning is the fact that land value means nothing, in real life land value goes up and the value of the building decreases.

 

2 You say it one directional and in a way it is, but isn’t every game.  While the rescores are grate they are only really there as a mean to trade and create a falces economy, they don’t really add anything to the city but income. They certainly could have done much better with this one. Such as   

 

“Maybe we should mine natural gas to run our gas power plants”  

“We need more iron ore to make steel to build our city”

“Our fresh markets are running low in fresh goods such as (whatever product you can think of) ; we need to build more farms”

 

Well you get the gest, if we where trading real items that are found in every day life and not just generic terms such as “fuel” and so on it would have given the trading aspect more meaning. Even if they still add nothing new to the game.   Anyway what is done is done I guess.   

 

4 and 5 well I can’t argue with theses one 100% correct,  

 

While everything I have said above are mainly just grips with the game and they annoy the crap out me it doesn’t stop me from enjoying the game for what it is.    

[Msprintz 25]

Originally posted by: mrdazza_460

 

2 You say it one directional and in a way it is, but isn’t every game.  While the rescores are grate they are only really there as a mean to trade and create a falces economy, they don’t really add anything to the city but income. They certainly could have done much better with this one. Such as   

 

“Maybe we should mine natural gas to run our gas power plants”  

“We need more iron ore to make steel to build our city”

“Our fresh markets are running low in fresh goods such as (whatever product you can think of) ; we need to build more farms”

 

Well you get the gest, if we where trading real items that are found in every day life and not just generic terms such as “fuel” and so on it would have given the trading aspect more meaning. Even if they still add nothing new to the game.   Anyway what is done is done I guess.   

 quote>

I have to concur, trading real resources would be a big hook to get me to buy CitiesXL.  It's something that would provide actual purpose ( at least the PO ), and would create something of substance that gives value to the game.

Maybe the community can pull something like this off, if SC4 ever becomes abandonware ( unlikely I know ).  

 

[soltangris 42]

Mrdazza, I can't agree with you about the zoning system. But it may be because I haven't played SC4with all mods....Still, correct me if I'm mistaken, but:

- In SC4 you create a zone that can be 1x1, 1x2, 1x5, 5x7, or whatever. Then this zone gets filled with as many lots as it fits. Since there are more lot sizes and forms in SC4 (thanks to the mods), your zone could include a greater variety of buildings, but they are still gonna be cramped right next to each other (no space of any kind between them). Also, because of the grid, they are always facing one of 8 possible directions. While this guarantees the best possible use of space, is it realistic?  

- In CXL you create a free zone that again attempts to place as many lots as possible. Since there are currently only two different sizes, you can hence have only two types of buildings in a zone. However, they aren't cramped together (because the engine places them around the roads and fills the gaps with stuff), and they can face any direction possible (because of the grid-free system).

- So, if we assume that a future development does the same for CXL as the lot editors did for SC4, we could have a zoning system that will be superior than SC4 - thanks at least to the grid-free system. Am I correct?

Concerning resources, you're forgetting that all businesses in the city need resources to run. For example: Heavy I needs fuel; manuf. needs energy, and so on. Maybe you're too good a mayor to let your city run short on needed resources, but I've done experiments, and believe me - if you reach red shortage on some resource, the businesses that use it start losing money very fast.  Also, if the resources that your citizens use (food, manuf and high-tech ind. and the utilities) go red, you'll get a penalty to their general satisfaction. So, you don't need resources only to trade, you also need them to run stuff in the city.

That being said, I'd appreciate the addition of more resources like the ones you mentioned. I agree with you and mks24 that this could enhance online experience.

But, risking some laughing, I'll remind you that MC promised more resources in the future.

[mhosni 20]

Originally posted by: soltangris

Mrdazza, I can't agree with you about the zoning system. But it may be because I haven't played SC4with all mods....Still, correct me if I'm mistaken, but:

- In SC4 you create a zone that can be 1x1, 1x2, 1x5, 5x7, or whatever. Then this zone gets filled with as many lots as it fits. Since there are more lot sizes and forms in SC4 (thanks to the mods), your zone could include a greater variety of buildings, but they are still gonna be cramped right next to each other (no space of any kind between them). Also, because of the grid, they are always facing one of 8 possible directions. While this guarantees the best possible use of space, is it realistic?  

- In CXL you create a free zone that again attempts to place as many lots as possible. Since there are currently only two different sizes, you can hence have only two types of buildings in a zone. However, they aren't cramped together (because the engine places them around the roads and fills the gaps with stuff), and they can face any direction possible (because of the grid-free system).

- So, if we assume that a future development does the same for CXL as the lot editors did for SC4, we could have a zoning system that will be superior than SC4 - thanks at least to the grid-free system. Am I correct?

quote>

I think you are both showing good points, CitiesXL has it is good part, and SC4 has its good part in zoning, but I think the most effective element that most people will adress, is the varity of buildings, land value, and zone development in SC4 zoning. may be SC4 adressing to zoning is not the best, but lacking the same in citiesXL make it looks static, and not real. if that subjects to be addressed in CitiesXL, that will enhance the playability of the game a lot. like allowing different sizes of lots, and developing the buildings according to land value, specially for houses and hotels, a luxury hotel will not flourish in a slum (usually it will close, sold to another investor, and may be becomes a small motel and a parking lot), and a slum house will not exist in a high land value area, if it happens, the slum house will be sold to a luxury investor to get the money, and a new luxury home will be built). Note that all that can be done manually in cities XL according to profitability and pollution effect, but you don't have to do it, and if you let it it will remain, and that is not realisitic. Also to do so in a huge city is too hideous.

Concerning resources, you're forgetting that all businesses in the city need resources to run. For example: Heavy I needs fuel; manuf. needs energy, and so on. Maybe you're too good a mayor to let your city run short on needed resources, but I've done experiments, and believe me - if you reach red shortage on some resource, the businesses that use it start losing money very fast.  Also, if the resources that your citizens use (food, manuf and high-tech ind. and the utilities) go red, you'll get a penalty to their general satisfaction. So, you don't need resources only to trade, you also need them to run stuff in the city.

That being said, I'd appreciate the addition of more resources like the ones you mentioned. I agree with you and mks24 that this could enhance online experience.

But, risking some laughing, I'll remind you that MC promised more resources in the future.quote>

I think more resources will be great, but also more event and action messages will be better, you don't get enough different  messages to do actions, it is the same, like oil prices are high, pollution is killing eveything etc. we need more messages that is more realistic and to the point, also it is better to show the problem area as it was before in SC4 and City life, now I got a message and I have to check all my layers to know where it is.

regards,

[soltangris 42]

Well, I guess it's ultimately up to people's taste if they like SC's developing zones or CXl's non-developing ones. 

But I bet nobody has thought of the following point:

 - In CXL you need ALL classes of workers, since every class fills different slots in the economy (unlike SC4 - there wasn't anything like that there). So, if there  were developing residential zones  in CXL, that would mean for example that unqualified workers' buildings will become qualified - and you'll lose all of a sudden a necessary part of your workers supply! So, the very concept of CXL economy excludes the possibility of changing residential zone quality. 

Concerning Land value: the Quaulity of life fetaure in CXL actually represents Land Value. It's affected by the same factors (air and noise pollution, parks, Landmarks) and it has an effect on residential satisfaction. Also, it is the main profit factor for Holiday hotels (which kinda represent the luxury hotels), meaning that they thrive in areas with high Quality of life, and risk going bankrupt when the quality drops.  

[DazzaDazza 29]

That’s why I said "SC4 is better at the moment” CXL could to be much much better, but we cant work on “could” because coulds have not happened yet and they may never.

 

but

they are still going to be cramped right next to each other (no space of any kind between them).

 

That is my point, go to any city around the world, and have a look at the buildings, there not much room around them they are cramped next to each other, even though SC4 is stuck with a grid, your cities deal with land management better because you don’t have vast arias of you city that are unusable due to the fact there are only 2 lot sizes and they are square, unless you build in CXL with a grid, but what’s the point of that when you have curved roads.  There may be more sizes in the future and different shapes I’m not denying that and I hope there will, but until then SC4 zoning still gives you a better end product when it comes to zoning in my opinion.  because there is more variation in lot sizes, as you said you can build lots whatever size you wont.  so there no need to CXL useless fillers around every building.  but It all depends on what angle you are looking at it from. I am looking at it from a land and space point of view. I don't like to see vacant spaces, probably because when I see that in real life I wonder how much money I can make out of it.       

 

As land value you’re confusing that with general happiness. When you places houses for unqualified working, what the value of there property?, is it low? Why is it low?, how do you change it.  Is it low because they are a low income household? Or is it because it is a crappy looking building.   Well that doesn’t make scene. You can have a low income household that own a high vale property; weather they can afford it is anther thing. As I said it not the building that gives the property it value it the land it build on. And the desirability of land is the main factor that drivers where people wont to live, it has also probably stated some wars and a hell of a lot of arguments in its time. Of corer land value is a real problem in the world, many cities are getting to expense for people to buy houses and big business to run large factories, that’s why every thing is made in China and so on. CXL just chooses to ignore it.  

 

Concerning resources, yes there is a correlation between recourses and your city; yes you need “Fuel” to run heavy industry, but what is fuel?, petrol maybe, dose every factory in CXL run on diesel  generators. Yes you need theses thing to run your city but they are only generic terms that don’t mean anything. They are too board at the moment. Just look at the CIV games they trade actual rescores, that do certain things, and I have to say CIV trading is more fun then CXL trading. Probably because you dislike you opponent and you don’t won’t them to succeed.  CXL has to take some of this on board, No one really ever fails in CXL.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

CitiesXL keeps on improving and at one point it might get back some of the features removed in Alpha. These include odd-sized lots in the Mass-Placement tool, the multi-lane tool, citizen variety (5 age groups (child, young adult/teenager, adult/parent, middle aged, and retired) and 3 political views (conservative, moderate, and progressive), mass transit, and tools for custom content.

[soltangris 42]

As land value you’re confusing that with general happiness. When you places houses for unqualified working, what the value of there property?, is it low? Why is it low?, how do you change it.  Is it low because they are a low income household? Or is it because it is a crappy looking building.   Well that doesn’t make scene. You can have a low income household that own a high vale property; weather they can afford it is anther thing. As I said it not the building that gives the property it value it the land it build on. And the desirability of land is the main factor that drivers where people wont to live, it has also probably stated some wars and a hell of a lot of arguments in its time. Of corer land value is a real problem in the world, many cities are getting to expense for people to buy houses and big business to run large factories, that’s why every thing is made in China and so on. 

CXL

just chooses to ignore it.

  

 

And I tried to explain to you that the 'Land Value' concept from SC4 wouldn't have a purpose in CXL. ?

- In SC4, Land Value was actually the critical factor in the development of a zone - wether it'll develop $, $$ or $$$. Since the whole economic mechanics of SC4 depend on zone development, raising Land Value was your main concern. I agree that this is realistic; the price of the land in real life determines what kind of buildings will develop on the space.

BUT, in SC4 you didn't really need heavy ind, or manuf. ind, or S residential slums. So, it was not only pleasing to see those removed from your cities, it was actually your main goal.

- In CXL, you DO need heavy ind, you do need manuf. and low class residential buildings. The game mechanics is built around you having use for all of them, not only the highest class buildings. Hence, we don't have zone development - because this would run against the basic game mechanics. You can't have your Heavy ind turn into manuf. by itself (as it did in SC4) only because your city hit the million. Hence, Land Value, as a factor determining what quality of buildings will develop on a certain area, becomes void and is removed from the concept. That is unrealistic in a opportunistic capitalist world, but think of it from a more 'socialistic' point of view - everything must have its place in life  

Land Value as such doesn't exist in CXL - neither the area, nor the building on it have 'property value'. Instead, there's a thing called 'Environment' (or Quality of life - the two terms seem to mean the same, although they keep using them both in the game - that's something I don't understand yet either). If you open the Overlays>Environment, you'll see the map vocered in colours. The redder the color, the lower the Environemt quality; greener - higher  Environment quality. If you pay attention, you'll notice how the quality improves around parks and Landmarks. And it absolutely doesn't depend on wether or not there are Unqualified homes there, or Elites. It also doesn't depend on what is the general satisfaction of the people in the area. Environment is only one of the satisfaction factors - there are also Services, there are Resources used, there are Jobs. 

My point is: Environment is the closest thing to Land Value in CXL, as far as it's determined by the desirability/beauty of the area. But here's where the resemblance stops. And it would go against the basic game mechanics to introduce SC4's Land Value here.

 

These include odd-sized lots in the Mass-Placement tool, the multi-lane tool, citizen variety (5 age groups (child, young adult/teenager, adult/parent, middle aged, and retired) and 3 political views (conservative, moderate, and progressive), mass transit, and tools for custom content.

Really? They had all this in the Alpha? I missed it... Wow..... I can understand why some people get so pissed and talk about Unfulfilled Expectations. On a side note, they do indeed show  some cool stuff like a train station with Bullet trains, and a sea oil platform in the promotional videos. We could only hope that this stuff will make an appearance at some point in the future!

[DazzaDazza 29]

I do understand where you are coming from, but I do believe they could introduce a more capitalist world, thy pretty much have it all there at the moment.

Rather then trading people as a commodity, they should induce a pay system to pay your workers, e.g. Unqualified workers get payed X-amount to attract them from other cities around your plant. buy doing this you could also introduce land value as well. Some maps have a higher value of land then others thus; you have to pay your worker more so they can live there, you already get five cities and not every one of your cities need to pay top dollar for workers, like if you won't to focuses one city on heavy industry.

Anyway that's not going to change so

I will tell you what we would agree on that is people with Unfulfilled Expectations, i don't remember the Alpha ether, maybe they have some screen shots to show us

[USA_Pride 49]

I agree with many of your points, but I wish that CXL would allow an in-place density modification such as going from medium density to high density residential.  Just as I wish they would allow in-place upgrade for roads (even if it were to destroy building on one side (of your choosing) of the roads.

For example, the city of Royal Oak, Michigan, United States (11.8 square miles / 30.6 square kilometers, 60,000+ residents) has a downtown area that has recently been transforming from 2-3 story building to 10+ story buildings because they've allowed it with their zoning ordinances.  As a result the city has been naturally growing from just a "suburb of Detroit" into its own city with a bustling downtown district.

However, I do agree with you that Cities XL is much more realistic in some regards because in SC4 it is very annoying that the buildings will change so easily and frequently.  Cities XL allows more real-world consistency in this manner.

Great, well thought out post Soltangris.

[DazzaDazza 29]

Yah, I would like to see that has well. It would get rid of some repetitive nature of the game, where you place some lots and 3 hours later your deleting them and planning more lots.