2009 European elections

[toxicpiano 125]

Nice to see there's more discussion about the EU on an international gaming forum than in the media here

[TekindusT 3,809]

In fact, we (SC gamers) are more interested in managing and politics than the real politicians... It's for that reason we play SimCity.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Fukuda

Yes it's like this:-

When I have visited southern Europe I have found that shops and restauarants are closed in the afternoon, if you want dinner at say 1400 there's very little chance.

By the same token I have in the past worked from 0600- 2400 because I wanted the money, my choice. Indeed in my job 14 -16 hours on duty a day can be quite normal.

However we now have laws made by the unelected european commission that restrict working hours denying the individual the freedom of choice brought into this country via the back door even though Britain vetoed hours of work legistration. We now have a 48 hours per week limit which the EU want to further reduce.

Yet as said Britain is an overall payer into Europe, with Germany, the other 25 are overall withdrawers from Europe. I for one and I'm not alone in this, don't like what Europe has become and want Britain out of it. To make our own laws and trade with the whole world. Norway said NO in 1973, did they know something we didn't? They are better off in having a special deal with Europe, all the advantages with none of the disadvantages.

A few politicians are trying to take the gravy train that is Europe the direction they want regardless of wether the people want it or not.

Skigeek

One of the many undesirable things in the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty was that the Crooked European Politicians were trying to create for themselves jobs for life on an unelected body from which it would not have been possible to remove them. As it's not possible to cherry-pick which parts of the constitution/treaty you want or don't want you have to reject the whole thing.

The French and Dutch rejected the constitution, the Irish rejected the treaty. That should be that. However the politicians are trying to get the Irish to vote on the treaty again. The Labour party promised the British a vote but then rescinded their promise.

[Aontan 0]

Britain and Germany aren't the biggest contributors to the EU per capita.

This graph shows the net benefit per capita (in euro) each country receives out of the EU:

 

Those seista-takin' Spaniards aren't huge drains on the EU, either. 

Even in total, the biggest contributors to the union are Germany, France, Italy and then the U.K.

[Ntq€310 1]

Now I feel sorry for the Netherlands...

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

You can find whatever satistics you like, but Britain and Germany are the biggest contributors as your previous post confirmed. In that they pay in more than they take out.

Also I wasn't only, or even, particularly refering just to Spaniards, I said Southern Europe. As I have found from personal experiance.

Or is it that I am the only person ever to want to eat at 1400 after a long and gruelling ride over mountains on dirt tracks.

Further more I am not having a go at the people of any country or the National Governments of any country, I am having ago at politicans and the political system that imposes the rules of others on me when I don't want those rules. If you want them for yourself fine, but don't impose them on me.

[fukuda 351]

When I have visited southern Europe I have found that shops and restauarants are closed in the afternoon, if you want dinner at say 1400 there's very little chance.quote>

All restaurants are open at 14:00.... And shops are closed because we don't have have dinner at twelve o'clock, we have dinner in the afternoon. Most shops are familiar businesses and having dinner with the family is still a very important ritual so shops will close in the afternoon. It has nothing to do with siesta... This is also true in almost all mediterranean countries, obviously restaurants in small villages can be closed at dinner time due to lack of outsider clients (they may be open only for villagers, even if the doors are closed)

However we now have laws made by the unelected european commission that restrict working hours denying the individual the freedom of choice brought into this country via the back door even though Britain vetoed hours of work legistration. We now have a 48 hours per week limit which the EU want to further reduce.quote>

Just to point something, the government and most people over here and other countries are also against these laws.. So it hardly was our fault

[TheQuiltedLlama 34]

[

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

You can find whatever satistics you like, but Britain and Germany are the biggest contributors as your previous post confirmed. In that they pay in more than they take out.quote>

This is true. However it has no relevance whatsoever. You may as well say that Russia as stronger economy than Luxembourg because Russia has larger overall GDP.

Also I wasn't only, or even, particularly referring just to Spaniards, I said Southern Europe. As I have found from personal experience.

Or is it that I am the only person ever to want to eat at 1400 after a long and gruelling ride over mountains on dirt tracks.quote>

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you've concluded that the EU is bad idea because in Southern Europe they have different restaurant opening times. You'll excuse me if i don't take you entirely seriously.

Further more I am not having a go at the people of any country or the National Governments of any country, I am having ago at politicans and the political system that imposes the rules of others on me when I don't want those rules. If you want them for yourself fine, but don't impose them on me.quote>

We vote for the European Parliament, the European Parliament approves the legislation. No one is imposing anything on us.

You may as well argue that the UK Government is imposing its laws on you, and you want your house to leave the UK.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: Aontan

Britain and Germany aren't the biggest contributors to the EU per capita.

This graph shows the net benefit per capita (in euro) each country receives out of the EU:

 

Those seista-takin' Spaniards aren't huge drains on the EU, either. 

Even in total, the biggest contributors to the union are Germany, France, Italy and then the U.K.
quote>

Worse thing is, only about 12 people live in Luxembourg, so think of all the money they get each >:-(

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: fukuda

Just to point something, the government and most people over here and other countries are also against these laws.. So it hardly was our faultquote>

I've decided to hold you personally responsible. You will receive a strongly worded letter within 2 to 4 working days.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Fukuda

Firstly I did not say it was your fault, I also did not particularly mention Spain, although it is amongst the countries I have visited. Perhaps my use of siesta was missleading in making people only think of Spain, which was not my intention. My point is that different countries should govern themselves and just trade with each other which was the purpose of the common market. However some european politicians have an idea that they want a 'United States of Europe' which the people of some countries, including Britain don't want.

I don't care how the Spanish (or anybody else for that matter) people choose to live, but I don't want to pay for it. I did mention that the people (european) did not want the same thing as the politicians.

TheQuiltedLama

I dont really care how you dress it up. Lots of British money goes into Europe that could better be spent in Britain. We (or a least some of us) vote for a European Parliment, that does not make laws, cannot amend laws, or turn down laws made by the UNELECTED European Commission.

I suppose you will not be surprised to know where my vote might have gone. It certainly wasn't for the European system that we have imposed on us at the moment. I want British laws made by a British Parliment for Britain. I don't want Britain to govern anybody else, or anybody else to govern Britain. All I want is the trading agreement we voted for in 1972.

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Ntq$310

Now I feel sorry for the Netherlands... quote>

No need for that. 

What doesn't get said when people have a little moan about how much they're paying to the EU is how much the EU is also earning them. Direct payments go into developing areas that lag behind the rest.They are not a reward for being a lovely member, nor part of the gravy train. It is flat out absurd to act as if the direct benefits per capita represent the full economic picture. Countries that receive less, objectively need less because they are ahead already. The EU's economic integration and shared development have been responsible for a massive growth in prosperity, perhaps most of all in the open Dutch economy.

"British people work long hours and southern Europeans have siestas then say they are poor and we should pay them."

Oh yes, those great cornerstones of "scepticism": prejudice and misinformation, how we do love them.

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

When I think of the European Union, it does seem somewhat analogous to a "United States of Europe" since that is the model that I'm used to. The colonies were separate and joined to become one nation. The European countries have been separate and joined to become whatever the European Union is.

Major difference, of course, is that the colonies were fairly new and European countries have had their own identities for centuries.

Then there is that "whatever the European Union is" part of the equation. I don't claim to understand the nuances of what it is and what it wants to be.quote>

It's a far cry from a "United States of Europe" (the dreaded "superstate", to use a kneejerk buzzword). All the nations are still very much there, and very much separate. The EU is a supranational entity, in which the member states have come to a set of agreements that make, among other things, the common market, the free movement of goods, services and people possible, and that have been agreed on in the common interest of the member states. The agreements translate to policy that gets made by the separate members for their own country, and it is possible for countries to opt-out of certain agreements, like the United Kingdom has done in opting out of the common currency.

What's this about an unelected commission with guaranteed 50 year positions? What is the function of this commission?quote>

There are no guaranteed 50 year positions. The European Commission developed out of the initial authority that was set up when the EU formed back in the 50's. The lack of a constitution or serious founding document means its government grew in a bit of an awkward, not clearly defined way. As a result the Commission forms the executive branch of the union, but is not directly elected.

Beside managing the common policy and basically representing the EU on the international stage, it proposes bills. These are voted on in the European Parliament, which today's elections in the UK and Netherlands were for. The Commission consists of 27 members, one of whom acts as a chairman, and the government of each member state appoints a member of the Commission. A new commission is set up every 5 years, after the parliament election, and the new parliament has to approve the new commission. Apart from this are the council of ministers, and council of heads of state, where representatives from the member states confer and have a say in the political direction of the union. On top of that the member states have the right to veto a lot of what gets decided.

It's all a little convoluted to say the least. Reform is needed but gets blocked because of poor proposals (the rejected constitution), poor presentation, idiotic media and general voter apathy. The European Parliament can't propose bills on its own for example, and there needs to be a more direct relation to the Commission in order to create more transparency in the decision making process and to establish a more direct democratic foundation and oversight of the commission, instead of through politicking between elected national governments.

In the United States of America, there is still an ongoing debate about what should happen at the state level and what should happen at the federal level. I suspect that the debate in Europe will continue about what should happen at the national level and what should happen at the EU level.

quote>

You suspect correctly, figuring this out could take a while yet.

Originally posted by: TheQuiltedLlama

Further more I am not having a go at the people of any country or the National Governments of any country, I am having ago at politicans and the political system that imposes the rules of others on me when I don't want those rules. If you want them for yourself fine, but don't impose them on me.quote>

We vote for the European Parliament, the European Parliament approves the legislation. No one is imposing anything on us.

You may as well argue that the UK Government is imposing its laws on you, and you want your house to leave the UK.

quote>

[TekindusT 3,809]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

Firstly I did not say it was your fault, I also did not particularly mention Spain, although it is amongst the countries I have visited. Perhaps my use of siesta was missleading in making people only think of Spain, which was not my intention. My point is that different countries should govern themselves and just trade with each other which was the purpose of the common market. However some european politicians have an idea that they want a 'United States of Europe' which the people of some countries, including Britain don't want.quote>

I don't know anyone who wants a "United States of Europe". Just ask yourself why all ex-communist countries joined the Union or are thinking in doing it. Do they felt European? I don't think so, just like all southern European countries (Spain, following the example). The reason is money, paid by the European "rich countries". To simplify things, British and German money paid Spanish high-speed railway lines in the past. Now, Spanish money is paying Latvian highways.

All countries that have joined the Union after its formation want better infrastructure, helps for their farmers, better fishing policies, movility for their students... Am I Europeist? Not much. Do I feel European? Well, we are in the same continent. I want to be included in the European Union? Obviously yes.

Everything is money.

[Easy Bakes 253]

So they just added another layer of government to every country in the EU?

[fukuda 351]

Not really.... the EU is almost nonexistent in local or national politics

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

I don't care how the Spanish (or anybody else for that matter) people choose to live, but I don't want to pay for it.quote>

But you still want a bite at 1400 when the Spaniards are unwilling to provide it for you? I do not think they are any more willing to organise their society after your stomach.

We (or a least some of us) vote for a European Parliment, that does not make laws, cannot amend laws, or turn down laws made by the UNELECTED European Commission. quote>

Ah, you do not elect the commission. Guess what? You do not elect your government either, that is being appointed by the PM. And if I recall correctly he is in turn appointed by the queen as long as he has a majority in the House of Commons.

The review of bills are made by committees, which you also don't get to vote on—you're only somewhat certain that the large parties are getting roughly the number of seats on the committee corresponding to their number of seats in Parliament. Take committees such as Treasury, Foreign Affairs, Public Accounts, Justice, International Development, Home Affairs, Work and Pensions, Communities and Local Government, Public Administration Select Committees, you'll only find Labour, Conservatives, and Lib Dems on these*—very little influence for any small party. Those running for "holding politicians accountable" or other specialist platforms like pensions or the environment might find that a bit harder to do in the Innovation, Universities, Science, and Skills Select Committee**.

*Defence Select Committee has one Co-op/Labour member, and **Health Concern has one member on the Health Select Committee.

And I'm not even going to comment on the House of Lords.

Like most of the bodies where the foundation for decisions are being made, the commissioners are appointed by government. Contrast this with the non-elected professionals in the departments, which are the ones preparing the cases that the Government and Parliament are building their decisions onto. Also, the commissioners appointed are supposed to defend European interestes, not the interests of the appointing nation.

I suppose you will not be surprised to know where my vote might have gone. It certainly wasn't for the European system that we have imposed on us at the moment. I want British laws made by a British Parliment for Britain. I don't want Britain to govern anybody else, or anybody else to govern Britain. All I want is the trading agreement we voted for in 1972.quote>

I checked Wikipedia, and apparently you didn't vote for the "trading agreement". You also knew what you was getting: The Parliament (the Assembly, wasn't elected before 1979) and the Commission, established by the Treaty of Brussels (1967) and the Treaty of Rome (1958). These had already been in place years before Britain and the rest joined in 1972.

It should also be noted that one of the EU main goals is to simplify and harmonise business. The EU regulations concerning bananas ( (EC) 2257/94) and cucumbers ((EEC) No 1677/88)) are not because they have to control everything, but because Europe should have one standard in the entire union—not 15 as when adopted or 27 today. Furthermore, the judicial integration via the Brussels I regulation and Lugano convention means that doing business or being a consumer throughout the EU/EEA is greatly simplified as one knows exactly how to expect a judicial process to proceed.

[Ntq€310 1]

I do love a open economy, yay Netherlands however. Looking at what ive been seeing. Labour, in both Britain and the Netherlands were destroyed, as well the CDA in the netherlands. Though there are no exit polls for Britain, it appears that the right wing PVV was the major winner in Dutch elections...

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

I don't care how the Spanish (or anybody else for that matter) people choose to live, but I don't want to pay for it.quote>

But you still want a bite at 1400 when the Spaniards are unwilling to provide it for you? I do not think they are any more willing to organise their society after your stomach.

In my earlier posts I said southern europe not particularly Spain. The others have assumed Spain probably because I used the common term siesta to describe the practice of having half a day off.

We (or a least some of us) vote for a European Parliment, that does not make laws, cannot amend laws, or turn down laws made by the UNELECTED European Commission. quote>

Ah, you do not elect the commission. Guess what? You do not elect your government either, that is being appointed by the PM. And if I recall correctly he is in turn appointed by the queen as long as he has a majority in the House of Commons.

 

I would like a more democratic system at home as well, but we do vote for the MP's from which the cabinet is taken

The review of bills are made by committees, which you also don't get to vote on—you're only somewhat certain that the large parties are getting roughly the number of seats on the committee corresponding to their number of seats in Parliament. Take committees such as Treasury, Foreign Affairs, Public Accounts, Justice, International Development, Home Affairs, Work and Pensions, Communities and Local Government, Public Administration Select Committees, you'll only find Labour, Conservatives, and Lib Dems on these*—very little influence for any small party. Those running for "holding politicians accountable" or other specialist platforms like pensions or the environment might find that a bit harder to do in the Innovation, Universities, Science, and Skills Select Committee**.

*Defence Select Committee has one Co-op/Labour member, and **Health Concern has one member on the Health Select Committee.

And I'm not even going to comment on the House of Lords.

Again I would like more democracy at home aswell

Like most of the bodies where the foundation for decisions are being made, the commissioners are appointed by government. Contrast this with the non-elected professionals in the departments, which are the ones preparing the cases that the Government and Parliament are building their decisions onto. Also, the commissioners appointed are supposed to defend European interestes, not the interests of the appointing nation.

And of course these commissiones are failed politicians, whom the public have already not voted into office, or have been sacked for missuse of public money.

[

Q]I suppose you will not be surprised to know where my vote might have gone. It certainly wasn't for the European system that we have imposed on us at the moment. I want British laws made by a British Parliment for Britain. I don't want Britain to govern anybody else, or anybody else to govern Britain. All I want is the trading agreement we voted for in 1972.quote>

Actually we only voted for a common market in the 1972 referendum. Nothing was said about the Superstate, Social Chapter, Open Borders or any of the other things which have occured since. I wouldn't put too much faith in anything Wikipedia says. 

I checked Wikipedia, and apparently you didn't vote for the "trading agreement". You also knew what you was getting: The Parliament (the Assembly, wasn't elected before 1979) and the Commission, established by the Treaty of Brussels (1967) and the Treaty of Rome (1958). These had already been in place years before Britain and the rest joined in 1972.

It should also be noted that one of the EU main goals is to simplify and harmonise business. The EU regulations concerning bananas ( (EC) 2257/94) and cucumbers ((EEC) No 1677/88)) are not because they have to control everything, but because Europe should have one standard in the entire union—not 15 as when adopted or 27 today. Furthermore, the judicial integration via the Brussels I regulation and Lugano convention means that doing business or being a consumer throughout the EU/EEA is greatly simplified as one knows exactly how to expect a judicial process to proceed.

quote>

[JanYpe 17]

It should also be noted that one of the EU main goals is to simplify and harmonise business. The EU regulations concerning bananas ( (EC) 2257/94) and cucumbers ((EEC) No 1677/88)) are not because they have to control everything, but because Europe should have one standard in the entire union - not 15 as when adopted or 27 today. Furthermore, the judicial integration via the Brussels I regulation and Lugano convention means that doing business or being a consumer throughout the EU/EEA is greatly simplified as one knows exactly how to expect a judicial process to proceed.quote>

Like we had problems before with how curved a banana was. Fact is you see them in the shop and you either like what you see and buy, or don't as the case may be. It's because of things like this that the EEC is a laughingstock. quote>

No. The laughing stock here is the public that eats up the nonsense about the EU that is presented as news by cretinous journalists. The ones who squawk about those dirty foreign types having the gall to even mention crooked fruit. You built an empire on bent bananas and by god you'll defend those curves!

Meanwhile in the real world, the standards concerning the size and quality fruit and produce are entirely in the interest of both producers and consumers. With the defined classification and tolerances you will always know what you are getting, so that you as a consumer are protected from crooks and the producers are safe from unfair trade practices.

Go ahead, google the EC and EEC numbers Krbe quoted, read what it actually says and stop acting as if this tabloid faff about curved bananas has any relation to reality.

You don't need a standard for natural things, nature has been around for years and predates the EEC. quote>

By that reasoning you could dismiss anything from refrigerators to medicine.

:edit:

Thanks to Aontan for linking this video, EU myths: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-jx5xTutU.

[Boggy1 45]

Commission Regulation (EC) No 2257/94 of 16 September 1994 laying down quality standards for bananas

II. QUALITY

This standard defines the quality requirements to be met by unripened green bananas after preparation and packaging.

A. Minimum requirements

In all classes, subject to the special provisions for each class and the tolerances allowed, the bananas must be:

- green and unripened,

- intact,

- firm,

- sound; produce affected by rotting or deterioration such as to make it unfit for consumption is excluded,

- clean, practically free from visible foreign matter,

- practically free from pests,

- practically free from damage caused by pests,

- with the stalk intact, without bending, fungal damage or dessication,

- with pistils removed,

- free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers,

- practically free from bruises,

- practically free from damage due to low temperatures,

- free from abnormal external moisture,

- free from any foreign smell and/or taste.

In addition, hands and clusters (parts of hands) must include:

- a sufficient portion of crown of normal colouring, sound and free from fungal contamination,

- a cleanly cut crown, not beveled or torn, with no stalk fragments.

The physical development and ripeness of the bananas must be such as to enable them to:

- withstand transport and handling,

and

- arrive in satisfactory condition at the place of destination in order to attain an appropriate degree of maturity after ripening.

...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994R2257:EN:HTML

Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88 of 15 June 1988 laying down quality standards for cucumbers

A. Minimum requirements

In all classes, subject to the special provisions for each class and the tolerances allowed, cucumbers must be:

- intact,

- sound; produce affected by rotting or deterioration such as to make it unfit for consumption is excluded,

- fresh in appearance,

- firm,

- clean, practically free of any visible foreign matter,

- practically free from pests,

- practically free from damage caused by pests,

- free of bitter taste (subject to the special provisions for classes II and III under the heading 'Tolerances'),

- free of abnormal external moisture,

- free of foreign smell and/or taste.

Cucumbers must be sufficiently developed but their seeds must be soft.

The condition of the produce must be such as to enable it:

- to withstand transport and handling, and

- to arrive in satisfactory condition at the place of destination.

...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31988R1677:EN:HTML

Seems fair to me.

And who here remembers that Scotsman article which proclaimed:

BUTCHERS in the Capital have hit out at a new European ruling which puts Scotland's traditional meal of mince and tatties under threat.

Scots butchers have made mince from beef hung for up to three weeks for generations.

But now the European Commission has ruled that the product can only be made from beef within six days of an animal being slaughtered, for hygiene reasons.

...

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/europeanunion/Mince-for-the-chop-under.2791951.jp

Shall we actually take a look at the regulation?

Corrigendum to Regulation (EC) No 853/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004

laying down specific hygiene rules for food of animal origin

2. The following requirements apply to the production of minced meat and meat preparations.

(a) Unless the competent authority authorises boning immediately before mincing, frozen or deep-frozen meat used

for the preparation of minced meat or meat preparations must be boned before freezing. It may be stored only for

a limited period.

(b) When prepared from chilled meat, minced meat must be prepared:

(i) in the case of poultry, within no more than three days of their slaughter;

(ii) in the case of animal other than poultry, within no more than six days of their slaughter;

or

(iii) within no more than 15 days from the slaughter of the animals in the case of boned, vacuum-packed beef

and veal.

Seems like the Scotsman article was telling the truth, eh?

Not so. Right at the beginning of the regulation it states:

2. Unless expressly indicated to the contrary, this Regulation

shall not apply to food containing both products of plant origin

and processed products of animal origin. However, processed

products of animal origin used to prepare such food shall be

obtained and handled in accordance with the requirements of this

Regulation.

3. This Regulation shall not apply in relation to:

(a) primary production for private domestic use;

(b) the domestic preparation, handling or storage of food for pri-

vate domestic consumption;

© the direct supply, by the producer, of small quantities of pri-

mary products to the final consumer or to local retail estab-

lishments directly supplying the final consumer;

...

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/h2ojregulation.pdf

So it doesn't, will not ever, effect any butcher, anywhere in Scotland, for all of eternity. The Scotsman article has no basis in reality.

Now you provide some reliable source, independently objective material that gives weight to your claims that the EU is doing the sort of thing you say they are.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

Again I would like more democracy at home aswellquote>

That is a fair observation.

And of course these commissiones are failed politicians, whom the public have already not voted into office, or have been sacked for missuse of public money.quote>

Then use your European vote and pray for greater interest in the Union. The commissioners have to be confirmed by the Parliament.

Like we had problems before with how curved a banana was. Fact is you see them in the shop and you either like what you see and buy, or don't as the case may be. quote>

I do not doubt that the common consumer has little interest in what the EU regulation say about the curvature of fruit, or that they have to be free of bruises. Exporters though, are different animals. The nightmare scenario is one where a big cucumber producer are situated in a country with small home market, so that it has to adapt to several different export markets, as it most probably won't be able to be a dominant power in any of them.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: JanYpe

It should also be noted that one of the EU main goals is to simplify and harmonise business. The EU regulations concerning bananas ( (EC) 2257/94) and cucumbers ((EEC) No 1677/88)) are not because they have to control everything, but because Europe should have one standard in the entire union - not 15 as when adopted or 27 today. Furthermore, the judicial integration via the Brussels I regulation and Lugano convention means that doing business or being a consumer throughout the EU/EEA is greatly simplified as one knows exactly how to expect a judicial process to proceed.quote>

Like we had problems before with how curved a banana was. Fact is you see them in the shop and you either like what you see and buy, or don't as the case may be. It's because of things like this that the EEC is a laughingstock. quote>

No. The laughing stock here is the public that eats up the nonsense about the EU that is presented as news by cretinous journalists. The ones who squawk about those dirty foreign types having the gall to even mention crooked fruit. You built an empire on bent bananas and by god you'll defend those curves!

"Dirty" your word not mine. I dislike the EU as it is I don't dislike individual europeans. You shouldn't make this a case of personal insults.

The British are proud of their history, the former Empire, the Commonwealth and multi-cultural Britain. Also on this 65th anniversary lets not forget the stand against Hitler and the Nazis and the liberation of Europe.

Meanwhile in the real world, the standards concerning the size and quality fruit and produce are entirely in the interest of both producers and consumers. With the defined classification and tolerances you will always know what you are getting, so that you as a consumer are protected from crooks and the producers are safe from unfair trade practices.

Go ahead, google the EC and EEC numbers Krbe quoted, read what it actually says and stop acting as if this tabloid faff about curved bananas has any relation to reality.

You don't need a standard for natural things, nature has been around for years and predates the EEC. quote>

By that reasoning you could dismiss anything from refrigerators to medicine.

I'll repeat myself for those who didn't  understand first time. You don't need legislation to know when fruit is ripe, you go by looks, smell, touch and common sense. Medicines are clearly different in that you cannot tell by looking, smelling, or touching. As for refrigerators, if they don't do whats expected or stated there is the Trade Descriptions Act. Also I didn't bring up bananas I just responded so get it right.

:edit:

Thanks to Aontan for linking this video, EU myths: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-jx5xTutU.

quote>

[Aontan 0]

The last polls have just closed.

Election results are going to start being announced now.

An estimated 43.01% of people voted, a record low. The turnout in 2004 was 45.47%, a record low then.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: Aontan

The last polls have just closed.

Election results are going to start being announced now.

An estimated 43.01% of people voted, a record low. The turnout in 2004 was 45.47%, a record low then.quote>

It was 33% in my borough

[Boggy1 45]

Blergh..the BNP got their first seat.

That party needs to be destroyed.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Boggy1

Blergh..the BNP got their first seat.

That party needs to be destroyed.quote>

You mean this BNP?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party     

[Boggy1 45]

Yup. That. Eugh.

Current EU UK Election Results: 63 of 69 seats declared.

Conservative: 24.

UK Independence Party: 13.

Labour: 11.

Liberal Democrats: 10.

Green Party: 2.

British National Party: 2.

Plaid Cymru: 1.

Worst result for Labour in history.

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

Originally posted by: JanYpe

It should also be noted that one of the EU main goals is to simplify and harmonise business. The EU regulations concerning bananas ( (EC) 2257/94) and cucumbers ((EEC) No 1677/88)) are not because they have to control everything, but because Europe should have one standard in the entire union - not 15 as when adopted or 27 today. Furthermore, the judicial integration via the Brussels I regulation and Lugano convention means that doing business or being a consumer throughout the EU/EEA is greatly simplified as one knows exactly how to expect a judicial process to proceed.quote>

Like we had problems before with how curved a banana was. Fact is you see them in the shop and you either like what you see and buy, or don't as the case may be. It's because of things like this that the EEC is a laughingstock. quote>

No. The laughing stock here is the public that eats up the nonsense about the EU that is presented as news by cretinous journalists. The ones who squawk about those dirty foreign types having the gall to even mention crooked fruit. You built an empire on bent bananas and by god you'll defend those curves!quote>

"Dirty" your word not mine. I dislike the EU as it is I don't dislike individual europeans. You shouldn't make this a case of personal insults. quote>

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything. What I was saying is that that is the underlying attitude of distrust that the so called "eurosceptic" parties tend to prey on. Poor journalism and inept politicians mean that even someone who wants to be well-informed has to claw his way past misrepresentations and dishonest reporting, and past short-sighted or simply unclear politicians. If EU elections weren't hampered so much by this, and weren't used merely as an expression of dissatisfaction with national politics, these parties that present no vision and no solutions beyond "leaving Europe" would be dead in the water.

The British are proud of their history, the former Empire, the Commonwealth and multi-cultural Britain. Also on this 65th anniversary lets not forget the stand against Hitler and the Nazis and the liberation of Europe.quote>

Quite, so I think it's hardly appropriate to strive for division at a time when we should be recognizing the past value of cooperation in the face of great wrongs, and realizing that in the future we will continue to need each other in the face of a world where nations of a European size will face more and more challenges. There is no reason why both our own national history (the British are hardly the only ones with history after all) and our shared history can't both be appreciated.

I'll repeat myself for those who didn't understand first time. You don't need legislation to know when fruit is ripe, you go by looks, smell, touch and common sense. Medicines are clearly different in that you cannot tell by looking, smelling, or touching. As for refrigerators, if they don't do what's expected or stated there is the Trade Descriptions Act. Also I didn't bring up bananas I just responded so get it right.quote>

The bananas don't matter, you as a single consumer don't matter. You already mentioned the Trade Descriptions Act yourself; European regulations simply expand national acts like that to make sure everyone is working to the same standard. Regulation follows from the need of the industries. You can look, smell and touch and decide on what fruit to buy, but you are not the only buyer and it is the production side that matters. If you want an honest common market, you have to make sure that a producer in Britain, or Italy, or wherever, doesn't face unfair competition from dodgy producers and doesn't have to juggle with differing national standards.

I know it looks ridiculous to read about things like cucumber regulation in the papers, ripped out of context, but they are nothing national governments didn't already do and they are in the interest of fair trade between member countries.

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Boggy1

Blergh..the BNP got their first seat.

That party needs to be destroyed.quote>

You mean this BNP? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

quote>

The very same. Lovely fellows. It's especially hilarious to follow the link from that wikipedia page to their 'Excalibur' webshop, where they sell everything from to "norse" books and jewellery. (perverted pre-Christian and early-Christian European history and mythology forms a hefty part of nazi and neonazi ideology.)

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

The people have spoken.

In Europe generally the centre left has done badly and the centre right has done well. In Britain the centre right Conservatives (Eurosceptic) and UKIP (Anti EU) hold first and second places with the Liberal Democrats (pro Federal Europe) and the incumbent Labour (pro Federal Europe) doing badly. England which is generally a conservative country did much as expected. The Conservatives took Wales for the first time, it had been held by Labour since there formation in the 1920's and Liberals before that. Plaid Cymru (Welsh nationalists) held the north of Wales. It is reported the Conservaties will do well in Scotland, but Scotland and Northern Ireland have still to count. Of course Scotland also has the Scottish National Party (Independence agenda) and Northern Ireland has different parties often based on religious lines.

The one sad thing is that the BNP (anti EU) gained 2 seats.

The Conservatives have promised the British the referendom on the Lisbon Treaty which could mean its non-acceptance in Britain even if Europe introduces it in the meantime.

Jan Ype

Do you really believe that the needs of industry over-ride the will of the people.

The general belief here is to have the MINIMUM of legislation, not lots of overbearing rules for every subject.