Air France flight AF447 disappears over the Atlantic

[Aontan 0]

Bodies  found  in  search  for  missing  plane

Saturday, 6 June 2009 19:26

Brazilian search crews have found bodies and debris from the Air France flight that crashed into the Atlantic earlier this week, an air force spokesman said.

Jorge Amaral said the first bodies - believed to be two males - from the crash were found early today.

Among the debris retrieved was a seat with a serial number that matched the missing flight, a rucksack, and a case with an Air France ticket inside, rescue officials said.

Earlier, the French navy said it was dispatching a nuclear submarine to join the search.

Three Irish citizens were on the Air France jet.

Investigators have revealed that the plane sent out 24 automatic error messages as its systems broke down one by one.

The director of the French air accident investigation agency, Paul-Louis Arslanian, said that it was impossible to tell from the signals whether the crew had shut off the autopilot or whether it cut out.

Airbus has a plan to replace speed monitors in its A330 planes following numerous breakdowns, according to investigators.

'We have seen a certain number of these types of faults on the A330,' said Mr Arslanian, confirming the missing jet had had a problem calculating its speed.

But Mr Arslanian added that it was too soon to say if problems with speed censors were in any way responsible for the disaster.

In addition to the nuclear submarine, a French ship equipped with two deep-sea research mini-submarines is on its way to the area. 

The dispatch of the French vessels follows a week of fruitless searches for the remains of the plane.

French Defence Minister Herve Morin told reporters in Paris he had not ruled out a terrorist attack on the plane, although he had not heard of any threats or claims of responsibility being made.

In Rio, police have begun collecting genetic samples from relatives of the passengers in order to accelerate the identification process should any remains from the crash be found.

Story from RTÉ News:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0606/airfrance.html

quote>

[Explodingsims 3]

It seems odd for it to drop off the map like that.

I doubt this will end well.

[hamsterTK 93]

The news keeps making statements that lightning, which supposedly is less of a threat these days with the way planes are designed, could have been a factor.

who knows, it is scary though that things like this can always happen

[tjh876 31]

Well, lightning isn't good, but it won't harm the aircraft. I honestly believe that a surge from the lightning could be a cause, but an electrical failuree, with loss in cabin pressure at 35,000 ft can result in death. At night, you have no light to see, and no light with no electricity, no way to see your instraments. It could be human error, but what annoys me is that the plane has a locater beacon thing, so why not use it?

[Jumpthefence 74]

This story reminded me of the "Mary Celeste", or whatever it's called, that ship that simply never showed up in port back in the 1800s. Have they ruled out the Bermuda Triangle? Yeah, most likely. I don't know too much about planes, but they all should have a tracker on them. I'm not sure if Brazil Air can use it, though, because the last checkin, communication, and moments on Brazilian radar, were all around 2 AM. So now the question is, what might have happened in the 1:14 between leaving Brazilian radar and the electrical fault? The tracker would help a lot in the investigation, so I'm going to go on Google Maps to see where the plane probably went down. Maybe it was within a Liberian radar's range.

No luck, the plane looks to be out of almost all radar ranges when it supposedly went down.

This is about where it was placed:

[un1 41]

Actually the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder have signals sending them out, they only last for 30 days. So you are out of luck once that 30 days have ended. It's probably gone now though, it has been missing for a few hours, and probably would be out of fuel by now. It still could be flying, and you can fly modern planes without much power. But since no contact has been made, it is probably gone (even without power, you can still send radio transmissions using the back up power source).

[Silur 3,308]

" Father, into Your hand I commend my spirit ..."

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Maybe, if they're really lucky, people from the future took them away and replaced their bodies with DNA-matching replicated material (random sci-fi reference).

[Explodingsims 3]

Originally posted by: Jumpthefence

This story reminded me of the "Mary Celeste", or whatever it's called, that ship that simply never showed up in port back in the 1800s. Have they ruled out the Bermuda Triangle? Yeah, most likely. I don't know too much about planes, but they all should have a tracker on them. I'm not sure if Brazil Air can use it, though, because the last checkin, communication, and moments on Brazilian radar, were all around 2 AM. So now the question is, what might have happened in the 1:14 between leaving Brazilian radar and the electrical fault? The tracker would help a lot in the investigation, so I'm going to go

quote>

I believe the Mary Celeste was also found adrift at sea, with everyone missing, about a week later.

Anyways, if there isn't a tracking thing on it, shouldn't there be some sattlilte thats takes pictures every few seconds that could have captured it? There's got to be at least one country that has somethign?

Originally posted by: Manticorefan

Maybe, if they're really lucky, people from the future took them away and replaced their bodies with DNA-matching replicated material (random sci-fi reference). quote>

The 4400?

[fukuda 351]

Anyways, if there isn't a tracking thing on it, shouldn't there be some sattlilte thats takes pictures every few seconds that could have captured it? There's got to be at least one country that has somethign?quote>

No, the plane crashed in the storm belt and presumably in the middle of a storm, there's nothing to see. And don't forget that this is reality, not a Hollywood film, there are no high-resolution military satellites taking pics of every place on earth every second

[hym 358]

It is possible for stuff to just simply disappear. As example, every year at least a few hikers in the US will simply go missing, even when they are wearing emergency tracking equipment.

[sEAhAwk fAn121 0]

This is a truly sad and shocking incident. It appears that the ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) sent error messages to the Air France HQ in Paris all within 4 minutes. It may have been that the ACARS could have been sending these as the aircraft was breaking up and plummeting to the ocean. That's the theory I have. It goes back to the Columbia Disaster when the orbiter sent error messages to Houston while the shuttle was melting/breaking up... If it is true the whole incident could have happened within 4+ minutes. Really sad and the families and friends of the victims are in my thoughts and prayers...

[_Atticus 10]

I don't see there being any survivors at this point. As was said before, if the plane was still out there, somebody would've heard about it by now. This is a really unfortunate accident, especially with such a large plane with so many people on board.

-Pingangster

[Explodingsims 3]

Originally posted by: fukuda

Anyways, if there isn't a tracking thing on it, shouldn't there be some sattlilte thats takes pictures every few seconds that could have captured it? There's got to be at least one country that has somethign?quote>

No, the plane crashed in the storm belt and presumably in the middle of a storm, there's nothing to see. And don't forget that this is reality, not a Hollywood film, there are no high-resolution military satellites taking pics of every place on earth every secondquote>

Yeah, I know nothing that cool exists...yet...

But it just seems odd for it to vanish like that. Although if it was a storm, it does start to make a little bit more sense.

I guess If nothing has been found yet, there's not a lot of chance of finding surviviors.

[duack 14]

Originally posted by: hym

It is possible for stuff to just simply disappear. As example, every year at least a few hikers in the US will simply go missing, even when they are wearing emergency tracking equipment.quote>

Proof that vampires exist! Anyone here a fan of the twilight books?

But on the topic, I suspect its caused by some cost-cutting measure that would've caused something to fail. I doubt it would be lightning, only because plane cabins are insulated so lighting would just go around it and strike the ground, passing off all the energy to the ground.

Actually, there was a similar incidient a few years ago that I saw on air crash investigations. A plane from NY to Paris just dissappeared. That one was caused by a leak in the fuel tank and a spark from damaged wiring causing an explosion which caused the plane to explode with no warning - no even enough time  to send a mayday signal. It could've been that, or an accidental military strike, which they also investigated in the show.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: duack

Actually, there was a similar incidient a few years ago that I saw on air crash investigations. A plane from NY to Paris just dissappeared. That one was caused by a leak in the fuel tank and a spark from damaged wiring causing an explosion which caused the plane to explode with no warning - no even enough time  to send a mayday signal. It could've been that, or an accidental military strike, which they also investigated in the show.

quote>

Something like this may have happened, lightening causing fuel to ignite perhaps. If it was a military somebody would know. 

[un1 41]

I think they should take the turbulence as why the plane was brought down. The short circuiting shouldn't have made a plane fall out of the sky.

Here's a recent story about a flight that got hit by turbulence and had to make an emergency landing...

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Sydney+Vancouver+Canada+flight+hits+major+turbulence+least+injured/1530736/story.html

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

A pilot on the return route reported seeing flames on the ocean near its last known position. The computerized automatic messaging systems sent something like a dozen messages about malfunctioning electronics, according to the news early this morning.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Looks like this one is one of those we maynever know what truly happened.we may have to wait for debris to wash ashore to get any testable samples. I dont think they design those black boxes to float and thats mighty deep water they were flying over.

[Abes 0]

It is a terrible, sad event, airline crashes always are. We are so used to the safety of air travel that we forget the tiny percentage of aircraft crashes that occur. But just because it is so rare doesn't mean that any civil aviation authorities, military, airlines or aircraft manufacturers are responsible.... Given how little we know about the way the atmoshere works, there are a huge amount of unknown, untested forces out there.... But aircraft are usually pretty stable, especially jetliners, so I'm assuming the storm must have been pretty severe, and way out over the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? There's no land masses to interrupt airflow..... That's why the really big storms like typhoons and hurricanes always form over water. It's a risk we take whenever we board any airliner. I hope that the families of the passengers on this flight can come to terms with their grief and remember the goodness in the lives of the victims.

[Meg 368]

Another pilot is reporting seeing fire on the ocean in that area.  [link]

The plane sent some automated messages.   Weren't they about electrical problems?

[tjh876 31]

Originally posted by: Merlin of Flyote

Originally posted by: duack

Actually, there was a similar incidient a few years ago that I saw on air crash investigations. A plane from NY to Paris just dissappeared. That one was caused by a leak in the fuel tank and a spark from damaged wiring causing an explosion which caused the plane to explode with no warning - no even enough time  to send a mayday signal. It could've been that, or an accidental military strike, which they also investigated in the show.

quote>

Something like this may have happened, lightening causing fuel to ignite perhaps. If it was a military somebody would know. 

quote>

That was a TWA 747 though. This is a wide body Air France a330-203. Yes, they both happened in the Atlantic, but the 747 was seen crashing and the a330 wasn't. It seems highly unlikly. Again, why not use the locater beacon? It works under water as well. If there was an explosion though, it might not work. I fell very sorry for the families. Best of luck to all of you through this tough time.

[Jumpthefence 74]

Well, some Brazilian authorities found debris in the area from what I've heard, so I guess it's only a matter of time before we find out the probably sad news of what happened to the plane. Assuming it's true, the plane certainly went down; it's not a conspiracy. I'm still thinking of what could be the trigger. An explosion seems the most likely, from lightning, I don't know. We'll just have to see if they find the black boxes, but I doubt there were any survivors.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,524263,00.html

[Easy Bakes 253]

The black Box is in 3000 meters of water. But the should be able to confirm with the floating debris.

[chicah 20]

There is a price to pay for progress; unfortunately insecurity and dangerous situations like this is it. I feel so sorry for the families of the passengers. If the plane exploded mid-air, or simply just crashed into the water; there's an estimated zero percent chance that there are any survivors. And even if it was, they are all probably gone now. An explosion is starting to sound likely. They've found debris, and I really hope they're gonna find the plane although it could be scattered into pieces which are dragged in all directions because of the heavy streams in the water. Some people claim it's a terrorist attack, but if it was someone would've taken the credit by now; and that plane wouldnt be a likely target anyway. No, this has to be an accident. The plane was sending automated messages about electrical failure and then fell off the radar.

Sad to say, but it's simply too late.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: chicah

. . .  or simply just crashed into the water; there's an estimated zero percent chance that there are any survivors.quote>

 

Compare it to the airplane that landed on the Hudson.  It was considered to be highly unusual that the pilot could successfully "ditch" the plane in a river.   He did.  People climbed out on the wings and the nearby ferry boats came and rescued them.

But Hudson is relatively calm compared to the ocean.   and even if the Air France pilot did manage to land the plane on the water, there were no boats nearby to retrieve the passengers.

Think of this picture, only out in the ocean where there are lots of tall waves.

If the Air France flight got to this point (which it probably did not, given the reports of fires and electrical problems), the ocean waves would knock those people off of the wings fairly quickly.

In theory, there could be some people out there, clinging to their seat cushions but it seems highly unlikely at this point. 

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: chicah

. . .  or simply just crashed into the water; there's an estimated zero percent chance that there are any survivors.quote>

 

Compare it to the airplane that landed on the Hudson.  It was considered to be highly unusual that the pilot could successfully "ditch" the plane in a river.   He did.  People climbed out on the wings and the nearby ferry boats came and rescued them.

But Hudson is relatively calm compared to the ocean.   and even if the Air France pilot did manage to land the plane on the water, there were no boats nearby to retrieve the passengers.

Think of this picture, only out in the ocean where there are lots of tall waves.

If the Air France flight got to this point (which it probably did not, given the reports of fires and electrical problems), the ocean waves would knock those people off of the wings fairly quickly.

In theory, there could be some people out there, clinging to their seat cushions but it seems highly unlikely at this point. 

quote>

Especialy since this one was at cruseing altitude when they think  it broke up,no one could have survived the impact from that high up.

[Yoman3 5]

Most likely a combination of factors resulted in this tragic event. I remember hearing that one of the automatic messages warned of a decompression. The media's idea that the plane went down because the fly by wire was shorted by lightning is ridiculous. Most likely it was instantaneous however, because the crew did not get off a mayday.

On a side note....Africa has radar?

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

In theory, there could be some people out there, clinging to their seat cushions but it seems highly unlikely at this point. 

quote>

Sorry to say, but survival time in cold water is generally recognized as minutes not days.

[duack 14]

An explosion is highly likely, because the plane was on fire when witnessess saw it and because there was no mayday signal. I doubt the storm alone would have done it, because winds would cause a struggle before causing a crash and lightning alone wont do it. Electrical failure of some sort would have played a part. Before trying to guess what it is the black box must be found.