US and Russian satellites collide

[Easy Bakes 253]

Very Red October

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7892294.stm

[Duke87 1,070]

Must be freak collision season.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: warrior

Really the whole thing of keeping each countries war/spy machines locations a secret is stupid, there should be a neutral central organsition/computer that tracks every single satellite, and monitors for collisions, and then can alert the right people in time.quote>

How do you propose to actually get them to give up that information though?  National defense is something that relies heavily on keeping the right information away from the right people.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

Satellite Sigma, orbit range, specific location on X date (for locating to begin tracking), weight, and any other helpful, generic informationquote>

Problem is, that's already enough information to get a pretty good guess what the satellite does.

To use another example, the CIA's budget is classified because with just a budget estimate, the KGB could have taken that information and turned it into a pretty good guess of how big the CIA actually is, where it likely has agents, what projects it is likely researching, and so on. There is a reason why they try to keep everything classified for as long as possible.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[warrior 169]

Well a computer could keep the information secret, but monitor any possible collisions, then pass an alert on to the countries involved, but I guess making sure noone hacks into the computer would be a job to do.

But really why do we need these spy satellites, we managed without them before, and really how many people in the counties want to be at war with another country?

As far as I see it it's mostly the leaders making decisions to go to war, when the people don't particular want to.

I'm not 100% sure on whats going on around the world, but for example what reason would those 2 submarines need to be in the same place, with nuclear weapons. For that matter why do we need nuclear weapons, the plenty of other ways to kill people, but without as much danger of radiation or whatever.

Also most countries with satellites have the ability to track objects in space anyway, so probably everyone knows where the other countries secret satellites are but arent saying that.

Jonathan

[hym 358]

I think your CIA example is quite far-fetched.quote>

If it's so far-fetched, why is the CIA so insistent that its budget allotment be kept secret? Year after year, decade after decade, it has kept that information under tight wraps because, according to a retired naval intelligence officer who wrote a book I'm trying to remember the name of, the CIA was afraid that the budget information would be enough for other spy agencies to figure out what resources the agency likely had and how it was allocating them. Think about it. You're a major intelligence organization with competent people who are good at their jobs (namely collecting and analyzing information). You know how much your organization receives, you know what kind of equipment you need and how much it costs, you know roughly where intelligence agencies are likely going to want to put agents, you know what kind of resources will be needed to carry out those missions, and so on. In itself, a budget estimate isn't enough to tell you what the internal workings of the agency look like, but it's enough to get you started in the right direction towards getting more data.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

If a general budget isn't going to tell anyone information about the CIA's operations, how is an average Joe supposed to know whether the CIA has fluff spending in their budget? That doesn't make any sense.

[warrior 169]

Hym, but the average Joe doesn't want to know about the CIAs operations.

Isn't a total of the money spent in the whole US released, and then you could just add up all the expenses of other departments, and take it away from the total money, and youve got a rough esitmate of how much the CIA spends?

Jonathan

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hym 358]

I agree that lack of visibility is not a good thing.  Problem is, organizations like the CIA need to be allowed to operate in some level of darkness if they are actually going to do their jobs.  Thus the problem becomes getting the visibility needed to ensure that the organization in question doesn't turn into a veritable nightmare, while at the same time ensuring it has the secrecy needed to do its work.  Intelligence agencies are masters at hiding information, and they are also masters at turning seemingly benign bits of information into useful discoveries.

Now, as to how this entire digression ties in to the discussion... it is possible for every government with a space presence to provide generic information to a governing body so that they can track these objects. No one needs to know what the satellite does, how much it costs to maintain, or if it has sharks with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads.quote>

The problem is that, as I said earlier, just giving them an orbit, a position for the satellite, and the general path the satellite is following is enough information to take an educated guess as to what the satellite does.  Say the Chinese find out that a US satellite is due to fly over China in about 22 hours.  China doesn't know exactly what the satellite does, but they can make a pretty good guess as to what it doesn't do.  It's probably not for forecasting weather, as a US weather satellite doesn't need to fly over China to find when the next major storm is coming on the East Coast.  It's not likely a communications satellite as those tend to be placed in fixed orbits relative to a spot on the ground (this satellite isn't), and again, what purpose is there for a US communications satellite to be flying over China?  It's probably not a navigational satellite as there isn't much point in putting a satellite on the other end of the world when all you're trying to do is help some frustrated driver find the local deli in his San Fransisco neighborhood.

Okay, so the Chinese aren't totally sure what that satellite does, but they have some pretty good ideas what it doesn't do.  They watch the thing fly by for the next few days, get some information on its movements, and figure out that it's flying in relative proximity to a Chinese military installation.  By now, they are probably figuring it's a spy satellite.  Okay, so the Chinese figure the US is spying on them, but they don't know what the US is looking for.  Well, they won't ever know for sure, but again, they can take a guess.  So they figure out everything that they have at said base, and try to come up with ideas as to what the US thinks might be there.  That gives them an idea of what the satellite is probably doing/looking for.  That gives them some idea as to what equipment it is probably carrying onboard and what they may have to do to keep their operations secret.

Now the Chinese probably didn't figure out everything exactly right, but they probably have a general idea what's going on.

[fukuda 351]

People tend to underestimate intelligence agencies.. Only the average Joe and small intelligence agencies are uninformed about how much the CIA spends, and what US satellites do (so does the CIA or NSA about them)

[hym 358]

I'm not even sure that the small intelligence agencies don't have some idea. Anyone with internet can point a browser towards Google and give you the current estimate for the CIA's budget.

[duack 14]

From my experience in these forums, I know that someone's about to say "aw the CIA doesn't want people knowing its budget because then taxpayers will get angry because they get too much funding". Well whoever's thinking that, the CIA does not get too much funding. The CIA isn't only about strategic war planning, its also about national security and preventing terrorism so no amount of spending is too much when it comes to safety.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: duack The CIA isn't only about strategic war planning, its also about national security and preventing terrorism so no amount of spending is too much when it comes to safety. quote>

The basic job of the CIA is to gather intelligence, analyze it, and provide that intelligence to those in need of it.  It has other duties too, but war planning isn't one of them.  That is the domain of the Department of Defense, which is an entirely separate organization.

Borrowing from the CIA's website:

The Director of the Central Intelligence Agency serves as the head of the Central Intelligence Agency and reports to the Director of National Intelligence. The CIA director's responsibilities include:

    * Collecting intelligence through human sources and by other appropriate means, except that he shall have no police, subpoena, or law enforcement powers or internal security functions;

    * Correlating and evaluating intelligence related to the national security and providing appropriate dissemination of such intelligence;

    * Providing overall direction for and coordination of the collection of national intelligence outside the United States through human sources by elements of the Intelligence Community authorized to undertake such collection and, in coordination with other departments, agencies, or elements of the United States Government which are authorized to undertake such collection, ensuring that the most effective use is made of resources and that appropriate account is taken of the risks to the United States and those involved in such collection; and

    * Performing such other functions and duties related to intelligence affecting the national security as the President or the Director of National Intelligence may direct.

The function of the Central Intelligence Agency is to assist the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency in carrying out the responsibilities outlined above.quote>

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Did you guys hear this? Apparently some of the debris has fallen back to earth near texas.

http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/021509kvuefireball-bkm.1bc255b6.html quote>

Hmph, it says something about the average intelligence of people if they're running around panicking because it's "an UFO".

[fukuda 351]

UFO as in Un. Falling down Obj. instead of Un. Flying Object, I guess

[Zezug 6]

According to an article in USA Today, that falling object was most likely a meteor/meteorite (whatever the proper term is), not something from the sateliite collision. Kind of a let down, in a way.

Edit: found the link http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-02-16-texas-meteor_N.htm

[TwelveToneMusic 0]

Definitely a let down. What I'm wondering is, why does this story never appear in my 'top stories' or 'world news' columns?

[Boggy1 45]

Junk alert for space station crew

The crew of the International Space Station has been forced to shelter in the Russian Soyuz capsule after a close call with a piece of space debris.

The three crew members are now out of danger and have returned to the ISS, Russian mission control officials told Reuters news agency.

Nasa said news of the debris threat had come too late for flight controllers to move the space station out of the way.

The scare comes just over a month after two satellites collided over Siberia.

Officials said the decision to move the astronauts had been a precaution and that the probability of an impact with the ISS had been low.

The space station's operating rules require crew members to be evacuated when debris is detected within a set distance.

Russian Yury Lonchakov and Americans Michael Fincke and Sandra Magnus took refuge for about nine minutes in the Soyuz TMA-13 escape capsule.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7940431.stm

Hate to say it; but I told ya so.

[Jezus53 18]

In January 2007, China caused international alarm when it destroyed one of its defunct satellites in a missile test. The US military estimates that this event created 2,500 new pieces of debris in orbit.quote>

Dang it China, this is why we can't have nice things.