Single Player

[gabry85 2]

I dunno, but we keep getting even more doubts and unanswered questions on many features (mostly for solo mode) as we move on. A quick list (sources included):

Region Play is dead or alive? (...)

No Terraforming Tools at release (just Mayor-Mode leveling brushes)

No Multiple Lanes Tool at release (introduced in this blog 1 year and 7 months ago (!), will be implemented afterwards due to some "technical difficulties")

Trains and trams are probably out (could make it at release though)

Landmarks are most likely out (only available in PO mode as 'Blueprints')

City Hall at start like in City Life (however, it can be bulldozed afterwards)

Visual management of utilities is out ('invisible' powelines and pipes are functional, but you can't place them)

40x40m MINIMUM size for lots (vs 16x16m in SC4)

Custom content will be heavily controlled by MC* (see below)

Not bad for an 'ambitious' city building game... I hope they'll release a big, big 'Phatch' (Fat Patch) to fill all those gaps...

*

From the SC4Devotion.com chatlog

snip

17:45 Glenni> RAISE HAND there is a probblem with though, as the years pass it's always the risk of the developer of a game to move on from the game, and abandondoning it's fanbase, not maintaining the modsite for it anymore, meaning no custom content can be uploaded, because there's noone on the other end to receive the files you sned in.

17:45 zero7> RAISE HAND What happens to custom content production when MC need all their resource to create another game?

17:45 callagrafx> RAISE HAND the problem comes when MC move onto the next project and all support for CC and CXL disappear, as what happened when Will Wright started Spore

17:45 Glenni> send*

17:45 zero7> RAISE HAND cal - great minds ...

17:45 callagrafx> great minds

17:45 Warrior> RAISE HAND that is not a coincidence I was thinking the same thing

17:45 PhilippeCitiesXL: Glenni: that won't happen

17:46 PhilippeCitiesXL: Glenni: we are commited for a long term support for CITIES XL!

17:46 Glenni> RAISE HAND: are you absolutely sure about that?

17:46 callagrafx> RAISE HAND because we've all experienced it. Anyone been to simcity.com recently?

17:46 PhilippeCitiesXL: We put all our resources and money: we are a ONE product based company now

17:46 Glenni> RAISE HAND: Spambox,com? yeah... not for the past months though XD

17:46 PhilippeCitiesXL: Guys, CITIES XL is MC's future!

17:46 callagrafx> RAISE HAND You still have to pay your staff to maintain something you may not be getting sales revenue from

17:46 PhilippeCitiesXL: MC is not leaving CITIES XL unless it doesn't work!

17:47 RippleJet> RAISE HAND will you accept all custom content sent in to you, or will there be some kind of criteria for what is good enough?

17:47 PhilippeCitiesXL: And if it doesn't work, nothing forbids us to give you more control on the Single player side of things

17:47 Warrior> RAISE HAND Then can you do that (give more control to us in single player) striaght away?

17:47 PhilippeCitiesXL: Cal: Free content may also be mean more reasons for players to buy the game and stay on the online offer

17:48 PhilippeCitiesXL: RippleJet: We will have some criterias: technical & editorial (no porn or other content the like )

17:48 PhilippeCitiesXL: Warrior: no we cannot because of the Online part

17:48 PhilippeCitiesXL: The same buildings are used on both sides of the game

17:49 plfd648_pat has joined #sc4d

17:49 freedo50 has joined #sc4d

17:49 freedo50> hey

17:49 Glenni> RAISE HAND: You will, eventually, and that's the worriying part, it's not that big of an issue for SC4 for istance, as we can somewhat survive on our own, without support from EA any more. But thew difference here is that in order to release custom content, the building model does first have to be brough to you, and when you are not here any more for whatever reason other projects, or even bankrubtcy, who will do the modding

snip

quote>

[TV-VCR 14]

Originally posted by: gabry85

*text*

quote>

I don't know about you but that really hit my hopes for CXL in the gut. I was actually fine with most of the other limitations, but with these considerably harsh limits on custom content and control...

[Evillions 552]

I think Cities XL will be the same as City Life 2007 and 2008. Shame.... Take out online and put in non-sqaure lots and custom content. That's why SC4 is currently the best city building game ever since 2003 or 2004 I think not too sure. But this sort of thing is giving online players more abilities than a solo player. I feel left out because of these limititions and tight controls.

[fukuda 351]

wait and see.... we don't have a crystal ball to see how CXL at release time will be.. I've seen this happen so many times in computer games, always overhyping and then, when something feels wrong the overhyped game is turned into "crap" for most people...

[gabry85 2]

Originally posted by: fukuda

wait and see.... we don't have a crystal ball to see how CXL at release time will be.. I've seen this happen so many times in computer games, always overhyping and then, when something feels wrong the overhyped game is turned into "crap" for most people...quote>

I took all this stuff directly from some threads and the FAQ updated yesterday and we never got any answers on questions asked for more than one year. And secondly, a Planet Offer player can only rejoice, because most of their questions are answered (I would behave like them IF I were interested in it. I joined CitiesXL.com) and confirmed whereas for single player mode is all questions, questions and questions about questions (yeah, that's right) everywhere, unlike PO of which we know everything. I followed the game's development since the beginning (CUPlanet.com) everyday, and I assure you it's all hype and 'wait-and-see' all the time.

We're having two ongoing discussions as we speak.

Single Players "neglected"

losin interest

[MandelSoft 2,769]

At first you think: "This game is great! I can't wait to buy it!" But when time passes, you see that more and more features you want are not included in the final game, and that the game that you already have is way better.

The following features will not make it into the final game:

- Custom interchanges (we're stuck with ploppable ones )

- Terraforming

- Multiple Lane Tool

- etc.

CXL focusses too much on the MMO part and leaves the SP alone. This could mean the game will be doomed.

Best,

Maarten

[egod6969 8]

Two things:

1)

I have yet to see anyone mention the fact that while you are paying for the online play you get a maximum of 5 cities which may not apparently (from previouse PO articles) be next to each other.

"Each player receives five slots to build five persistent cities on different Planets"

http://www.citiesxl.com/index.php?/content/view/78/1/lang,en/

So you are very limited to what you can do online, unless you pay for multiple accounts. I mean I guess once you build all 5 you could maybe disown them or something because if other players are relying on your cities being able to delete them would be a disaster.

2) I agree with the origional poster I have fallen in love with region play and simply couldn't go back to single city play, even if that means sticking with SC4 for ever. I was very excited about CXL at the start but in the past 2 months as more things come out about it I am slowly loosing interest, and having no region and no trade between cities in SP mode IF true would be the ultimate deal breaker. Of course having no terraforming ability would be a deal breaker too, and no I don't want to wait 6 months for a terraformer to be released, I will wait to buy it until one is available.

[His Divine Hand 244]

 Yes, clearly this game is DOOOOMMMMED!  I mean, how could they not copy SC4 and release the game with a building creator and a full list of mod programs right from the start. . . . wait. . . . SC4 didn't release with those features either!!!

All of this "wah wah, the game isn't EXACTLY how I wanted it!" cry babyism is silly.  I hate sounding like a broken record, but SC4 did not come out with the bells and whistles that it has now.  Much of what we take for granted came from pioneers of the modding community, people who took the time to figure out how to mod the game themselves.  SC4 as we know it was made possible by their hard work, and if CXL proves good enough in game play, it's modding pioneers will make possible a game more inline with what they want.  

Remember, SC4 did not even have one way roads, avenues, ground highways, or a lot and building editor until a year and half after its original release.  Monte Cristo knows what we want, and so will any modding community that develops.  It took years for SC4 to develop into what it is now, within it's limitations.  CXL is a chance to break away from those limitations and take city building to a new level.  We can finally break away from the grid, from the forced angles of view.  Heck, we even have a multiplayer that some people always wanted here.  Frankly, give it time.  I know I'm going to, since my computer is a bit old, and I'm not going to rush out and get a new one.  SC4 did not start out as a perfect game, but it got better with time and hard work.  CXL has that same potential.  

[Evillions 552]

Hand: Yeah mabey you're right. But hope it don't end up like SC:S. Hopefully it doesn't take that path.

[His Divine Hand 244]

Originally posted by: Evillions

Hand: Yeah mabey you're right. But hope it don't end up like SC:S. Hopefully it doesn't take that path.quote>

Do you mean abandoned after a year due to poor sales?  Probably not, as Monte Cristo was still releasing add-ons for City Life up until 2008, which as far as I know had fairly lack-luster sales too.

Or referring to the "re-visioning" of the city builder genre that EA and Tilted Mills took with the game?  Probably not either, since MC appears to have learned that the basics is where the fan base is for the city builder genre (a lesson learned from CL I imagine).  

The problem I see is that CXL is probably trying to do too many things at once, which is partly because everyone wants something a little different from the game, not to mention that MC probably wants to add their own touch to it so that it isn't just an SC4 clone.  I personally see the game as having a good potential, but much like SC4, will take a little time and effort to reach that "golden" place.

[gabry85 2]

Originally posted by: His Divine Hand

Remember, SC4 did not even have one way roads, avenues, ground highways, or a lot and building editor until a year and half after its original release.quote>

That's right, but what about regions and terraforming tools? If in SC4 they were included from the start, then are you sure they aren't 'core features' that should be integrated in the game's code BEFORE release? And once again, they promised the Multiple Lanes Tool in 2007 (here) that magically disappeared this month???

It's not that easy to 'give them a chance' when you always get news about Planet Offer this and Planet Offer that while people continuosly ask "OK, nice thingy, but... what else?" Trust me, I tried for over a year.

Sure, I won't challenge the fact people may want to play a city building game online, and I'm fine with that, but I still barely know what's in the single-player game, which is what attracted me in this game in the first place and many other people (we didn't even know CXL was supposed to be an MMO game until April 2008). The FAQ didn't reassure me at all, and judging by what's happening right now down at CitiesXL.com means I'm not the only one.

That's what's worrying me.

[egod6969 8]

@His Divine Hand

I don't expect everything up front heck at this point I really don't expect any mods except those explicityly produced or sanctioned by MC. However I do expect terraforming tools at the begining so I can make custom maps even before SC4 came out not having one would have been a deal breaker since both SC2k and 3k had an integrated one and classic also had one however it was not integrated. As far as regions without them I would have to put some thought into buying the game as it would be like a step back from where I am now with SC4. Now to you this may be whining and if it is I am sorry, it is simply my opinion on the news of the features as currently available an it is subject to change.

[dedgren 830]

Wait, wait... I get it. Monte Cristo's real objective is to make money? Wow, what a concept!

I think that the epic fail that's being set up here will make what happened with SC:S look like a little glitch. Nobody can blame MC for wanting to make money. That's not a problem. What the problem is is that MC hasn't been candid with the community about its intentions. There's no long-term money in single-player mode if the game follows the same sales arc as pretty much everything other than SC4 has- unless, of course, there's regular upgrades (CXL 2010) and expansion packs (the already announced GEMs) out there on the market. A free and independent custom content community is a competitive threat to MC- that is why MC does not plan to allow one to exist.

IMHO, without a custom content core, there is no likelihood that a really active larger community will develop around the game. Why? Fansites will just be tips and tutorials, cheats and CJs. Thin gruel if you are used to comprehensiveness of ST and SC4Devotion, where you can follow a chain of threads for hours, usually to wind up finding out that someone's working on something you are interested in.

MC also does not want to make single player CXL too attractive, because it too is ultimately competition for the multiplayer Planet Offer version of the game- the place that MC has figured out is where the money (at least potentially- it has failed bigtime with multiplayer games before [linkie]) is. To MC's credit, it is making a big bet that MMO will work in the city builder genre, but it wasn't truthful about what it was doing from the get-go- remember when CXL was billed as a "single-player city builder with a multiplayer option" or something like that? Now, it's more like a "massive multiplayer online city builder with a single-player portal (to get the rubes in the door)."

I was willing, as with SC:S, to give things a chance. I even bought a copy (now where did that beer coaster go...) Monte Cristo, though, has just been so blatant about completely ignoring the legitimate questions that have been raised while making such a huge show about community involvement and input that I must admit- the coming train wreck will is becoming almost perversely enjoyable to anticipate. You hate to see anyone fail, but MC can't say it hasn't been warned. The anger and sense of betrayal on display in the forum threads of the MC website is almost palpable. Check this one out [linkie], it's pretty representative.

Just in case any game manufacturer is looking for a sure thing- acquire lock, stock and barrel the rights to SC4 from EA then develop and sell an updated version that is backward-compatible with existing mods and content and fixes the long list of things that have been identified by the community over the years. The update should retain the "open" nature of the current version- if possible it should even expand the community's ability to mod the game. It should address and take advantage of, if possible, the advances in processing speed and graphics card technology. At (US) $75 or $100 a pop (yes, I think that such a company should charge a premium price), I'd bet there'd be 100,000 copies sold to ST/SC4D members alone. Now that would be the worthy successor that it is becoming increasingly clear CXL is not.

David

[egod6969 8]

I guess I missed it but it definitelly looks like in solo mode you WILL NOT be able to trade with other cities you built.

From the new CXL blog posting linked earlier:

- A complex, but easy to access, simulation based on 12 resources to trade with an opportunistic IA (electricity, waste management, agriculture, water, fuel, etc.)

[TV-VCR 14]

Originally posted by: dedgren

Wait, wait... I get it. Monte Cristo's real objective is to make money? Wow, what a concept!

I think that the epic fail that's being set up here will make what happened with SC:S look like a little glitch. Nobody can blame MC for wanting to make money. That's not a problem. What the problem is is that MC hasn't been candid with the community about its intentions. There's no long-term money in single-player mode if the game follows the same sales arc as pretty much everything other than SC4 has- unless, of course, there's regular upgrades (CXL 2010) and expansion packs (the already announced GEMs) out there on the market. A free and independent custom content community is a competitive threat to MC- that is why MC does not plan to allow one to exist.

IMHO, without a custom content core, there is no likelihood that a really active larger community will develop around the game. Why? Fansites will just be tips and tutorials, cheats and CJs. Thin gruel if you are used to comprehensiveness of ST and SC4Devotion, where you can follow a chain of threads for hours, usually to wind up finding out that someone's working on something you are interested in.

MC also does not want to make single player CXL too attractive, because it too is ultimately competition for the multiplayer Planet Offer version of the game- the place that MC has figured out is where the money (at least potentially- it has failed bigtime with multiplayer games before [linkie]) is. To MC's credit, it is making a big bet that MMO will work in the city builder genre, but it wasn't truthful about what it was doing from the get-go- remember when CXL was billed as a "single-player city builder with a multiplayer option" or something like that. Now, it's more like a "massive multiplayer online city builder with a single-player portal (to get the rubes in the door)."

I was willing, as with SC:S, to give things a chance. I even bought a copy (now where did that beer coaster go...) Monte Cristo, though, has just been so blatant about completely ignoring the legitimate questions that have been raised while making such a huge show about community involvement and input that I must admit- the coming train wreck will is becoming almost perversely enjoyable to anticipate. You hate to see anyone fail, but MC can't say it hasn't been warned. The anger and sense of betrayal on display in the forum threads of the MC website is almost palpable. Check this one out [linkie], it's pretty representative.

Just in case any game manufacturer is looking for a sure thing- acquire lock, stock and barrel the rights to SC4 from EA then develop and sell an updated version that is backward-compatible with existing mods and content and fixes the long list of things that have been identified by the community over the years. The update should retain the "open" nature of the current version- if possible it should even expand the community's ability to mod the game. It should address and take advantage of, if possible, the advances in processing speed and graphics card technology. At (US) $75 or $100 a pop (yes, I think that such a company should charge a premium price), I'd bet there'd be 100,000 copies sold to ST/SC4D members alone. Now that would be the worthy successor that it is becoming increasingly clear CXL is not.

Davidquote>

Excellent post. I imagine you've taken the words right out of many people's mouths, in regards to this issue.

The developers at Monte Cristo have blatantly, for the most part, shut out opinions from the community in regards to single-player mode. Personally I feel like I'm being duped, like I did with EA and SCS.

Oh well, time will tell. I would probably still be willing to give it a chance, but I don't like the current situation very much.

[KeanoManu 42]

Now we also know that updates that includes new content for the game will be Planet Offer-exclusive.

They doesn't seem to care about the City-Builder community at all. Maybe it's time to remove this game from Simtropolis?

[+Guest]

KM you have no real right to say what Simtrop or anyone else should or shuldn't do.

HAVING said that this is getting ridiculous. MC promised us this... WTF. They have proven to lie now on more than one occasion! SO LAME! I am getting so upset.

[LivingInThePast 364]

OK, I've got news...Cities XL is not SimCity. It's a new direction from the city-building genre. I personally believe that Cities XL should not push an online concept...SC2K Network Edition failed miserably. But hey! Simtropolis can have a Cities XL forum, and you don't have to play it. I probably won't, unless they can convince me otherwise.

[KeanoManu 42]

Now we have a confirmation that the blueprints buildings are only available in the Planet Offer.

Here's a list of the buildings you will NOT be able to build in Single Player:

The Colossus of Rhodes

The Sydney Opera House

The Statue of Liberty

The Empire State Building

The Chrysler Building

The Arc de Triumph

The Eiffel Tower

Christ of Corcovado

Cape Canaveral

St. Basil's Cathedral

Sears Tower

Notre Dame Cathedral

Thanks Bountytaker at citiesxl.com for the list.

[Asheroo 53]

KM, get your facts right. Don't jump to your conclusion giving all the wrong facts outside of the CXL site.

From a recent solo mode video, we saw some of these buildings as landmarks in CXL. Philippe Da Silva replied back that the video is in solo mode, in reply to KM asking about landmarks in the video.

[KeanoManu 42]

Who's jumping on conclusions?

Philippe (da silva) clearly states in the post i linked to that those blueprints buildings are only for the planet offer.

[buddybud 63]

Originally posted by: LivingInThePast

OK, I've got news...Cities XL is not SimCity. quote>

article link ->   E3 2009: A chat with Cities XL's Alexandre Zambeaux

The funny thing is i found this in an article on massively.com in an interview with Alexandre Zambeaux at E3 2009.  The article is dated june the  8th  2009. 

question - How will this be an MMO? Does it redefine the genre, or simply introduce something fresh?

awnser - Well, here's the thing: it's not just an MMO. At launch, the game can actually be purchased off the shelves at your favorite retail store and played as a single-player city-builder, much like SimCity 4.

quote>

alex happens to be the marketing director for cities xl as seen in the article. So while at the same time they are saying that cities xl is not sc4 in the forums they themselves are comparing it to exactly that at e3.  This is the kind of thing that is causing so much confusion. Note the date and when this occured. They are talking one way in the forums and another at e3 in exactly the same time frame.

boggles the mind.

bud

[parrotti 11]

most of the games you buy you can play for free online so why pay for it?

[Gregory_C 0]

Cities XL is an MMO, a Massively Multiplayer Online game, which means it can hosts thousands of people interracting in real time. Those games are different from many 'regular' online games, you connect to a server that is a whole new world..

With lots of players playing at the same time, a world constantly evolving, and a game that is also constantly evolving. You'll have thousands of cities on each planet interacting, helping each other, or even competing.. Making each planet a living world. We plan to make Cities XL a big game, which will evolve and grow with time: it will have regular upgrades: new content, new functionnalities, etc

To do that lots of ressources are required: big servers, lots of bandwith, and of course all the people working to make it all happen.. None of that is free unfortunately.

[LivingInThePast 364]

Originally posted by: Gregory_C

Cities XL is an MMO, a Massively Multiplayer Online game, which means it can hosts thousands of people interracting in real time. Those games are different from many 'regular' online games, you connect to a server that is a whole new world..

With lots of players playing at the same time, a world constantly evolving, and a game that is also constantly evolving. You'll have thousands of cities on each planet interacting, helping each other, or even competing.. Making each planet a living world. We plan to make Cities XL a big game, which will evolve and grow with time: it will have regular upgrades: new content, new functionnalities, etc

To do that lots of ressources are required: big servers, lots of bandwith, and of course all the people working to make it all happen.. None of that is free unfortunately. quote>

Ah ha! The truth comes out...Cities XL isn't really a new city-building simulation, it's an MMO that revolves around building cities! (bonk) How could we have missed that? 

[dasilva 3]

And just to make it clear: You still can play your game Solo

The MMO side is optional.

[LivingInThePast 364]

It still seems to me that rather than "it's single player, but there's an online version too" it's "primarily multiplayer but there's still a single player version". If the former was true, why is so much being stressed on the Planet Offer and the GEMs only being available to them?

[+Guest]

Phillipe, will singple player players be able to download customized content and content like patches and other material MC release, without payment? Or will we have to pay for custom content, or patches or any other additional material MC offer? I have heard a rumor that only MMO players get such extras for free. THIS REALLY WORRIES ME.

And with GEMS, I am not sure if this has been answered on the webpage but will GEMS be physical things we can buy and download? Or will we download them? And if we DO download them, if we re-boot our computers or loose them, will we have to pay AGAIN?

[gabry85 2]

Originally posted by: LivingInThePast

It still seems to me that rather than "it's single player, but there's an online version too" it's "primarily multiplayer but there's still a single player version". If the former was true, why is so much being stressed on the Planet Offer and the GEMs only being available to them?quote>

Careful here: the GEMs are available for both modes. But this doesn't change the picture much because the game's core mainly works through a persistent simulation engine (typical in an MMO game) in both modes, hence this discussion. Another (obviously unanswered) question is: Do I have to buy, for example, an Airport GEM if I just want to build a realistic airport but NOT manage it?

Blueprints (or landmarks? another very confusing issue), on the other hand, are exclusive for the Planet Offer: those who want to recreate real world cities will most likely be forced to pay a monthly fee and maybe (if I remember well) PURCHASE realistic grayscale maps. Oh, and to punish those pesky custom content creators who dare to create those buildings for a better SP experience, they have to pass through MC to include them in the game to avoid cheating in PO (see quote at the top of this page), because they're the final creators.

This persistent engine led the team to scrap many other typical city-building features (like regions*) simply because they conflict with it and the Planet Offer. If they REALLY wanted to make "A single-player game with an OPTIONAL multiplayer mode" like they always say, and not the other way around, they wouldn't have made a persistent engine in both mode in the first place. Two separate engines (expensive?) or a later MMO EP (because expansions are OPTIONAL as the MMO side of this game of course, yes? ) make much more sense, IMHO.

After all, they said:

We wanted players to first enjoy Cities XL in solo mode, and then convince them to join the Planet Offer, which will open the gates to a more ambitious level of game experience.quote>

In fact, it’s by linking up with other players around the planet, exchanging products, and sharing tasks that you will experience the full flavor of Cities XL!quote>

(all quotes are linked)

* BREAKING NEWS: Michael (MC's Community Manager) said in this forum that a sort of "Region Play" works only in the PO. If this is their answer after 11 (ELEVEN!) months of discussions of regions in single player... well, that alone is sufficient to tell me this game is really a MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online (MMO) game and NOT "A single-player game with an OPTIONAL multiplayer mode." You do the math.

[+Guest]

How do you have a sort of regions system in PO? When and where was this confirmed?

And if Regions DO exist and only in PO it just shows they are out to make more money more than anything.

PS. gabry85, or g314, this is Michael from the MC forums.